Ship Scaling Sprites

[Sauron18]

I just scaled it based on information we have from the show.

People are on average 1.5 meters in height.

The Supergate segments were stated to be 10 meters in length, and they cannot be more than 5 meters wide because of their needing to travel here through a stargate.
Since your original estimate of the supergate segments were off by a factor of 4, your numbers are wrong.

About the Person Height, I know, but if you're going to make a spacesuit, you make it so that any person can fit. Even if it is 1.5 (carter's), in the second pic I actually semi-lied, I made it smaller when it should actually be the double of what I wrote, or more, but I left it at two cuz I didn't want to oversize it.

About the segments, I'm going for visual evidence here, since the arguement is about the visual effects, so it is what it is based on what we see (human).

Yes, they can't fit through the stargate, but that was made pretty clear from visual evidence. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not (The first supergate's segments didn't fit either.

My measurements may be wrong, but if they are wrong my miscalculation would have been making them too small.

The VFX mistake was with the crowd in "Crusade". And they also need to retcon the whole segment thing (maybe what comes out of the stargate joins with others and forms 1 segment), because since "Beachhead" that has been a VFX mistake

[Jarnin]

About the Person Height, I know, but if you're going to make a spacesuit, you make it so that any person can fit. Even if it is 1.5 (carter's), in the second pic I actually semi-lied, I made it smaller when it should actually be the double of what I wrote, or more, but I left it at two cuz I didn't want to oversize it.

You also didn't scale the 2 meters in relation to the 20 meter width of the supergate. You also didn't realize that the supergate segments are tapered, and that the bit you scaled was the shorter side.

About the segments, I'm going for visual evidence here, since the arguement is about the visual effects, so it is what it is based on what we see (human).

That shot is a set blended with CGI, in an episode that already has two ships scaled wrong.

Yes, they can't fit through the stargate, but that was made pretty clear from visual evidence.

Which should tell you not to use that picture. They have to fit through the stargate, otherwise they can't possibly get here from the Ori galaxy.

Regardless of whether it makes sense or not (The first supergate's segments didn't fit either.

Yes, the original supergate segments fit through the stargate, there's a scene of them doing just that in Beachhead.

My measurements may be wrong, but if they are wrong my miscalculation would have been making them too small.

You're saying that a supergate segment is ~20 meters wide, which is something that cannot fit through the StarGate, and you're using that to scale the supergate. Your reference is your problem, not your calculations.

The VFX mistake was with the crowd in "Crusade".

How do you figure? Both of my references in each picture are exactly the size their supposed to be (gate segment 5x10 meters, human 1.5 meters).

You're using one reference (the wrongly scaled supergate segment), I'm using two references (supergate segment correctly scaled, and a human), and I got the same dimensions for the ship in both pictures.

In other words, my scaling works in both shots, yours doesn't.

And they also need to retcon the whole segment thing

They screwed it up in Camelot.

maybe what comes out of the stargate joins with others and forms 1 segment

No, that doesn't happen. Carter called off the length of the segments as they were about to collide with the Prometheus in the episode Beachhead. They also had to fit through the stargate, which sets their maximum width.

They weren't shown forming into "super segments". Is wasn't mentioned in either episodes. Also, there was no mention of the segments being larger in Camelot than they were in Beachhead, which means it was a CGI screwup in Camelot, not Beachhead.

Here's a shot of the supergate segments in Beachhead in relation to Prometheus:


The segment just off the Prommies nose is about to clip the shields. If that is 45 meters long, then Prometheus would be over half a kilometer in length, which we know it's not.

[Sauron18]

No, the original segments did not fit, the ones we saw coming out of the gate did, yes, but not the ones that formed the supergate (you see the cargo ship in relation to them).

All that I did was using the best visual evidence there is, everything in Camelot can be alright if you discount the crowd from Crusade.

In fact, I'm certain that's the only mistake, since you can see more or less the windows on the Ori Warships, and Vala's size compared to a segment of them. So the Camelot Sized do concur with one another. The glitch is the people of Crusade.

The Stargate Segments have been too big since Beachhead, the only good ones were those that we saw for a few seconds exiting the gates.

Don't listen to anything in the episode, the forming up thing was just a bonus. This thread is about VFX, meaning using visuals only to scale, regardless of what characters say or don't say

[Sauron18]

What I'm saying is, determine the Size of the Warships from what you see in Camelot, regardless of other episodes, regardless of anything else.

Camelot independently kept everything to scale.

Compare it to Crusade, theres a size different (you could always say there are different sized warships).

Beachhead, independently and compared to other episodes screwed up, just look at the size of the segments, which minutes earlier we saw fit through a stargate:

[Peoples_General]

How many ancients lived in Atlantis? That is how you determine whether it's a village or a city...

You might have a point, if Manhattan island was a superstructure like Atlantis, but it's not.

When you count the superstructure of Atlantis as a big building, and then add all the towers that are sitting on top of the superstructure, it probably has about the same interior space as all the office buildings in Manhattan.

That is the point Rodney was trying to make when he said "It’d be like searching every room in every building in Manhattan."

Umm... the SIZE of a building also determines how many people can be there. Also by your definition of "population makes a city" then we can regard the Hives as Wraith City-Ships too.

Now look, in S3 of SGA the Asurans have their own Atlantis-like City-Ship, and that there are over a million people in it; being a nano-tech offshoot of the Ancients, I don't see why they would have basically the same tech.

Now IF the City-Ships are capable of holding a million people, than the Ancient City-Ships should be REALLY larger seeing as how Atlantis does not have little coffin-sized cells for sleeping quarters, but they provide actual rooms for each crew.

Manhattan has a population of about 1.5million, if you were to take all tall buildings in Manhattan and cram them into a 0.81 mile x 0.81 mile area... it will not be able to hold a million people. Not to mention that all the 30-storey and above skyscrappers in Manhattan would not even fit into such a tiny area.

Again, those VFX guys need to re-scale Atlantis. These are the mighty Ancients we're dealing with afterall, they're supposed to do everything big.

If there was an area in NYC that was comparible to Atlantis... it's Lower Manhattan. The lower 1/4th of the island. The area where WTC used to stand. Now as huge as that place is, its over 2miles by 2miles in area, yet it

[Jarnin]

No, the original segments did not fit, the ones we saw coming out of the gate did, yes, but not the ones that formed the supergate (you see the cargo ship in relation to them).

Visual effects screw up.

All that I did was using the best visual evidence there is, everything in Camelot can be alright if you discount the crowd from Crusade.

What about the shrunken Ha'taks and O'Neill ship? Those were WAY too small, and you're completely ignoring that fact.

Camelot has so many scaling issues it's not even funny. That's why I don't use anything from that episode to scale anything except the Ori supergate and the Ori ship.

In fact, I'm certain that's the only mistake, since you can see more or less the windows on the Ori Warships, and Vala's size compared to a segment of them. So the Camelot Sized do concur with one another. The glitch is the people of Crusade.

The Ori ships are fine in Crusade and Camelot. The Super Gate is fine in Camelot. The Daedalus class ships are fine.

The scale problems in Camelot are clearly seen with the supergate segment that Carter is on, the Ha'taks (all 12 of them) and the O'Neill class ship (which is shown smaller than the Daedalus class ships!).

The Stargate Segments have been too big since Beachhead, the only good ones were those that we saw for a few seconds exiting the gates.

Which were 10 meters long, and 5 meters wide. Why am I still repeating this..?

Don't listen to anything in the episode, the forming up thing was just a bonus. This thread is about VFX, meaning using visuals only to scale, regardless of what characters say or don't say

That's crap! You're using bogus mis-scaled visual effects from the worst mis-scaled episode in StarGate history, and you're telling me to forget about what the writers actually wrote? The writers are the guys who invent this stuff!

Look, everything was fine up until Camelot. Camelot screwed it all up by shrinking the Ha'taks, shrinking the O'Neill, and making the super gate segment ginormous so Carter could spacewalk on them.

Had the season finale not been handled by multiple VFX teams, everything would have been fine. In fact, that's probably why Vala's Tel'tak was smaller than the supergate segments when it should have been about 5 meters longer than them.

The VFXs are started before the episodes are shot. The writers/producers/directors give the VFX guys an outline of what they want in the shots, and the VFX guys model and animate it. By the time the episode goes into post-production, the VFX shots are completed and edited into the episode.

What happens if the final shots are screwed up? They hope we don't notice

[Peoples_General]

What I'm saying is, determine the Size of the Warships from what you see in Camelot, regardless of other episodes, regardless of anything else.

Camelot independently kept everything to scale.

Compare it to Crusade, theres a size different (you could always say there are different sized warships).

Beachhead, independently and compared to other episodes screwed up, just look at the size of the segments, which minutes earlier we saw fit through a stargate:

Sauron is correct here. Look at the segments! They are bigger than a Tel'Tak and every one knows that Tel'Taks DO NOT fit through StarGates. Unless these Super-Gate segments are capable of expanding and contracting in size.

Which reminds me... what happened to the "retracting metal plates technology" in the movies, and the early series that the Goa'uld had? I know that we based our Iris tech on that... Remember the Jaffa helmets?

Since the Goa'uld copied Ancient Tech, then its reasonable to say that the SuperGate segments are also capable of this expand-contract technology.

[Jarnin]

Umm... the SIZE of a building also determines how many people can be there. Also by your definition of "population makes a city" then we can regard the Hives as Wraith City-Ships too.

Yep.

Now look, in S3 of SGA the Asurans have their own Atlantis-like City-Ship, and that there are over a million people in it; being a nano-tech offshoot of the Ancients, I don't see why they would have basically the same tech.

You're basing a statement on spoilers, which haven't been confirmed yet. You should probably go with what has aired, since that is canon.

Now IF the City-Ships are capable of holding a million people, than the Ancient City-Ships should be REALLY larger seeing as how Atlantis does not have little coffin-sized cells for sleeping quarters, but they provide actual rooms for each crew.

You're still basing your statements on spoilers, which haven't been confirmed yet, and you're assuming that the Atlantis expedition has 1 million members. Geez.

Manhattan has a population of about 1.5million, if you were to take all tall buildings in Manhattan and cram them into a 0.81 mile x 0.81 mile area... it will not be able to hold a million people.

What does the population of Manhattan have to do with this, and how do you know how many people can live confortably inside Atlantis? You're basing all of this on unfounded rumors and speculation...

Not to mention that all the 30-storey and above skyscrappers in Manhattan would not even fit into such a tiny area.

Have you done the math? Do you know how tall and how many stories each tower in Atlantis has, and how many rooms each floor has? Of course you haven't.

Again, those VFX guys need to re-scale Atlantis. These are the mighty Ancients we're dealing with afterall, they're supposed to do everything big.

Atlantis is plenty big. You just think it has to be bigger. I think Freud would say you're trying to compensate for something.

If there was an area in NYC that was comparible to Atlantis... it's Lower Manhattan. The lower 1/4th of the island. The area where WTC used to stand. Now as huge as that place is, its over 2miles by 2miles in area, yet it

Not relevent. Until you know the internal volume of Atlantis and the internal volume of every building in Manhattan, you can't compare the two.

Even then, McKay was probably exaggerating, just like he did when he said that Pegasus was 300 million light years away from home in the episode Suspicion. He seemed to exaggerate a lot in season 1.

[Jarnin]

Sauron is correct here. Look at the segments! They are bigger than a Tel'Tak and every one knows that Tel'Taks DO NOT fit through StarGates. Unless these Super-Gate segments are capable of expanding and contracting in size.

Which was probably made by a subcontracted VFX team, which mis-scaled the shot. I already covered this, and you'd know about it if you had read my posts.

Which reminds me... what happened to the "retracting metal plates technology" in the movies, and the early series that the Goa'uld had? I know that we based our Iris tech on that... Remember the Jaffa helmets?

Those VFX shots were too expensive to have in the series, so they got rid of them, until Moebius part I, which showed Teal'c with a morphing Horus guard helmet on.

Since the Goa'uld copied Ancient Tech, then its reasonable to say that the SuperGate segments are also capable of this expand-contract technology.

Speculation, and bad speculation at that. The Ori have been contained in their own galaxy for millions, perhaps tens of millions of years. Their technology is not ancient technology, and Goa'uld technology is not ancient technology.

You're drawing parallels where there are none (or at least very few).

[Peoples_General]

Even then, McKay was probably exaggerating, just like he did when he said that Pegasus was 300 million light years away from home in the episode Suspicion. He seemed to exaggerate a lot in season 1.

Oh, now look who's SPECULATING. "seemed", "probably" are all words of speculation and supposition. As for your VFX team comments... you are speculating there. Do you have proof that the studio subcontracted another team? Please state your source as you are again speculating on the inner workings of the production crew... unless you have an insider there who gives you info.

As for your Freudian comment about size... it's been shown many times in series that BIG = powerful. Huge Ha'Taks, huge Hiveships, huge O'Neill-Class, huge City-Ships, huge Toilet-Class ships... Im not the one compensating for anything. I only desire this thing called CONTINUITY... including continuity of the "big = powerful" concept, which I would like to see displayed in an enourmous City-Ship. 0.81miles hardly does the Ancients as the "super-alien-race" of the whole StarGate universe any justice.

Now, as for the argumentative nature of your posts (nitpicking every line, throwing insults), your trying to project "power" over others. People/guys who project themselves that way... are compensating for something as well. Im just retaliating here, as I possess no appreciation for the sentiment of your above statements.

As for the math, the main spire is said to be about 1/2 in height as Atlantis is long. Which also seems to be wrong if you've ever seen the city sideways. It looks more like 1/5 or maybe even 1/8th...

I said that the Goa'uld copied Ancient tech. When you copy something your are basing it on the original. It is not the original itself. So don't try to put words into what I never wrote by implying that I said "Goa'uld tech = Ancient tech".

All these screw-ups with CGI. Maybe the special effects crew should go back to old-school style, and start using scale models instead of using computerized graphics....

[Jarnin]

Oh, now look who's SPECULATING. "seemed", "probably" are all words of speculation and supposition.

At least I posted an example of McKay exaggerating to back up my speculation. Where are your references? Ah, you have none. You have correlation, not causation.

As for your VFX team comments... you are speculating there. Do you have proof that the studio subcontracted another team?

Yes.

Please state your source as you are again speculating on the inner workings of the production crew... unless you have an insider there who gives you info.

Here you go.

In case you have problems following the link:

Hey There chipster_man!

Okay . . . some more details. Something I haven't mentioned on this forum yet, is although Rainmaker Animation & Visual Effects was the main contractor (doing almost every single shot) in season 1 for Stargate: Atlantis, this is no longer the case. There are now several visual effects vendors working on the series (much like Stargate SG-1 has always done).

Hence, there is more than one company building models of the city. So, although each model version at Rainmaker is consistent (e.g. you can't tell which of our models we are using), there would be some differences between our model (the master original) and any copy someone else may have built.

All that said, I'm pretty sure only the Rainmaker model has ever made it into an episode (this includes up to the end of season 2).

Cheers,
Bruce

As for your Freudian comment about size...

That was meant as a joke, not to be taken personally.

it's been shown many times in series that BIG = powerful.

Big usually means powerful, because powerful usually needs to be big. Big power sources, big weapons, big engines, big shields, etc.

However, when you have wizards on board your little ship, it becomes powerful because magic doesn't have to be explained.

I only desire this thing called CONTINUITY... including continuity of the "big = powerful" concept, which I would like to see displayed in an enourmous City-Ship.
0.81miles hardly does the Ancients as the "super-alien-race" of the whole StarGate universe any justice.

It is enormous. It's bigger than 0.81 miles; in fact, I recall (I don't have a link at this moment) that the piers are between 1 and 1.5 km in length each. The central tower is 500 meter tall. This was quoted in a Q & A with one of the guys from Rainmaker on this forum. I'll search for it later and post the link when I find it.

Now, as for the argumentative nature of your posts (nitpicking every line, throwing insults), your trying to project "power" over others. People/guys who project themselves that way... are compensating for something as well. Im just retaliating here, as I possess no appreciation for the sentiment of your above statements.

You're reading too much into it. If I offended you, I appologize.

As for the math, the main spire is said to be about 1/2 in height as Atlantis is long. Which also seems to be wrong if you've ever seen the city sideways. It looks more like 1/5 or maybe even 1/8th...

Uh, if the numbers I quoted above are correct, it would be about 1/6th... Still taller than nearly all skyscrapers on Earth.

I said that the Goa'uld copied Ancient tech. When you copy something your are basing it on the original. It is not the original itself. So don't try to put words into what I never wrote by implying that I said "Goa'uld tech = Ancient tech".

You did say that the Goa'uld got their tech from the ancients... Bah, forget about it.

All these screw-ups with CGI. Maybe the special effects crew should go back to old-school style, and start using scale models instead of using computerized graphics....

All they need to do is share the original models by licensing the rights to the subcontracting VFX teams. If Rainmaker licensed their models, the subcontractors would have the original models, and Rainmaker could make money from the residual license fees.

See, the problem is that both shows require so many VFX shots that no single company can do them all. So they subcontract out shots to other VFX companies, who then have to build their own models and animate their own shots.

If Rainmaker built the models and shared them, all the shots would look identical and all the scales would be consistant.

[Battera]

I have a feesable question... How do we know that those things we call people in the screenshots of crusade arn't groups of people?

Look at the factory in the background. The factory is almost as tall as the people.

My theory: The 5m gate segments come out of the stargate, form an ori gate (300-400m). The ori gate the releases 80 more, larger segments. the segments from before combine with the larger segments as a powersource, thus making the Ori 'supergate'. I have spoken!

BTW, When everyone decides to, heheh, STOP ARGUING, and provide PICTURES or LINKS to support their ideas, I will post the remaining sprites i've comleted.

Also, the cold hard truth is, the writers, and graphics people are not gods, nor do they think they are like some people (haha), and they do make mistakes. Often. Probably too often. I think there should be a formal diagram released that shows the scales of ships.

But anyway, whenever you all come into an agreement about the Ori ships, I will make a sprite for it.


BTW, Sauron18. You are right yes. This is a thread about VFX shots. IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE mind you, but that is apperently what it became.

And can anyone provide pics comparing the size of the Orion-class ship with other ships for me, please?

[Jarnin]

I have a feesable question... How do we know that those things we call people in the screenshots of crusade arn't groups of people?

What else would they be? There are huts in that picture which scale with the little 1.5 meter tall blobs. More importantly, the ships scale with the 1.5 meter tall "blobs" too.

They're also not placed in any specific order; they look like they've amassed for to watch something, which they have: The Priors activating the ships power systems.

Look at the factory in the background. The factory is almost as tall as the people.

I think you're confusing the huts with factories...

My theory:

Your hypothesis...

The 5m gate segments come out of the stargate, form an ori gate (300-400m). The ori gate the releases 80 more, larger segments. the segments from before combine with the larger segments as a powersource, thus making the Ori 'supergate'.

Ok, now it's speculation, since there isn't any observational data to back up your statement.

I have spoken!

You have written!

BTW, When everyone decides to, heheh, STOP ARGUING, and provide PICTURES or LINKS to support their ideas, I will post the remaining sprites i've comleted.

We're not arguing, we're debating the topic. That, in scientific circles, is called "peer review", which means people are checking your work for flaws. It might seem like arguing, but it's really not, or at least not supposed to be.

I stand by my work. It's based on numbers directly from the show, and stands up until we get to the episode Camelot, which we know has scaling problems in many of the VFX shots.

My esteemed collegue Sauron18 has based his numbers off the VFX from Camelot, and states that the episodes Beachhead and Crusade got the scales wrong.

So, it's up to our peers to decide who's scaling efforts are more accurate. Check our math. Check our references. If you find a flaw, post them. If you can't find any flaws, then say which scaling effort you think is correct.

Also, the cold hard truth is, the writers, and graphics people are not gods, nor do they think they are like some people (haha), and they do make mistakes. Often. Probably too often.

Quoted for truth!

I think there should be a formal diagram released that shows the scales of ships.

I second the motion. All in favor, say "aye".

But anyway, whenever you all come into an agreement about the Ori ships, I will make a sprite for it.

Make two. One with my dimensions and one with Sauron18's dimensions. The compare them and post the picture

BTW, Sauron18. You are right yes. This is a thread about VFX shots. IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE mind you, but that is apperently what it became.

I don't understand. All of my shots are taken from visual effects, and my scale of the supergate segment is based on a direct quote from the episode in question. Not only that, but dialog = canon.

I'm not going to throw out canonized dialog because it conflicts with someones idea of how big something is in an episode known for it's scaling problems.

And can anyone provide pics comparing the size of the Orion-class ship with other ships for me, please?

I don't think there has been a shot of an Aurora class ship with another ship in frame, at least not one where the Aurora was in good enough shape to get an accurate scaling. In Aurora, the ship was so badly damaged that it was more a hunk of scrap metal than a defined shape.

I think the best shot for scaling an Aurora class ship would be the shots of the Orion in its hanger in Inferno. You can scale the people on the catwalk, and then scale the catwalk in relation to the hanger walls, and then scale the ship in relation to the walls.

[Peoples_General]

However, when you have wizards on board your little ship, it becomes powerful because magic doesn't have to be explained.

It is enormous. It's bigger than 0.81 miles; in fact, I recall (I don't have a link at this moment) that the piers are between 1 and 1.5 km in length each. The central tower is 500 meter tall. This was quoted in a Q & A with one of the guys from Rainmaker on this forum. I'll search for it later and post the link when I find it.

Uh, if the numbers I quoted above are correct, it would be about 1/6th... Still taller than nearly all skyscrapers on Earth.

Yeah, and your so-called joke... I can say that you were reading too much into that size thing too you know.

Now for the VFX guys who needs to think "mighty Ancients", as we mere Humans are beginning to surpass them...

Okay so lets do some math here... lets go with the 0.81mile figure first that someone stated.
1mile = 5,280ft now if the Central Tower is only 1/6th of that length, then the Tower is only 712ft in height. Which makes it less than half the height of the Sears Tower, WTC, and the massive Taipei 101.

Now onto the metric round!
It's been stated that the Central Tower is about 500m tall? PAH! The Taiwanese have beaten the Ancients as their skyscrapper Taipei 101 is about 508 meters tall. Not only that but soon the Chinese in Shanghai and even the Arabs in Dubai, UAE will top Taipei 101's height. Im not gonna post about the Freedom Tower as it's not even under construction unlike the two towers I state above.

Shanghai World Financial Center's final height is still in question they keep changing it while its being constructed now. It was originally 480m, then 492, and is supposed to be changed again to beat Taipei 101.

Burj Dubai is already under construction and it's final heigh is kept secret but its expected to surpass the 2000ft mark as it supposed to have 200 floors, soaring to an esimated 800meters.

I have no doubt that the Chinese will probably make an answer to Burj Dubai, when that tower is completed.

Looking at both the Burj Dubai, and Shanghai WFC... they look like they belong on an Ancient City-Ship.

Burj Dubai


Shanghai World Financial Center


But here is the current "World Champion"...
Taipei 101

[Karec]

What kind of coceyed world do you people live in?!

1,5 Meters as avarage for a human?!
More close to avarage whould be 1,7 if anything and may I remind you that it is quite likly that most of the people down there are men = 1,8 normaly.

And you can't use earth's avarage height, Thanks to the chinese and japanese.

Have you seen a asian person in the ori galaxy? No.
That means that they are europeian by image meaning their avarage height is either 1,7 or 1,8 not 1,5.
Also In country's with plenty of food and health care people grow around 1,8 and 1,9 like here in sweden or germany. So just think about it. A galazy where theres food AND instant health increasers from the prior's the people has to be around 1,7 or 1,8.

Thank you *Bows and walks off, all 1.84 of him*