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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Karec
    What kind of coceyed world do you people live in?!

    1,5 Meters as avarage for a human?!
    More close to avarage whould be 1,7 if anything and may I remind you that it is quite likly that most of the people down there are men = 1,8 normaly.

    And you can't use earth's avarage height, Thanks to the chinese and japanese.

    Have you seen a asian person in the ori galaxy? No.
    That means that they are europeian by image meaning their avarage height is either 1,7 or 1,8 not 1,5.
    I understand what you're saying, and yeah, 1.5 meters isn't the world average; it's about 1.75 meters.

    It doesn't really matter though, because in that picture, even if the people standing around the ships are 1.7-1.8 meters tall, it still scales with the ships dimensions, which is the whole point of using a person in that picture as a reference.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Jarnin, I think you are still not getting what I am saying, you keep using facts that are said in the episode (10 by 5). That may be true, but it doesn't matter, using solely visual evidence, the segmetns are different in every shot.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Since someone has already accurately scaled Atlantis, I'll use reference his work:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclite @ forums.spacebattles.com
    The sequence is a simple setup of Shepard and Weir talking to each other outside of the main Atlantis gate room. Then the camera begins to pull back and slowly dissolves to an exterior shot of the CGI model of Atlantis. The camera continues to pull back and is held low to the surface until the entirety of the CGI model is visible on the screen.

    Image 1:

    Here we see Maj. Sheppard leaning out on the railing of the platform surrounding the Atlantis central gate room. We will assume that Sheppard is approximately 6 Ft (1.83 M) tall, even allowing for his slightly slumped posture. By scaling this is 231 Pixels or 0.01 Meter/Pixel. We need to confirm this measurement with a similar object before looking at the city structure. By taking an average crewman in the background and scaling his assumed height we get a similar measurement of 6 Ft = 114 Pixels or 0.02 M/P. The difference in the ratios leads me to believe that the higher one is more appropriate to use because of the background character's proximity to the only real structure visible on the image (the two large doors). In addition, because the result of this is going to be a size approximation for the entire city of Atlantis, which is relatively huge when viewed in comparison to an average human, small errors in measurement on this scale will tend to become even smaller towards the end of the process. We can now take the measurement of the large door behind Sheppard to be 210 Pixels or 3.37 M at 0.02 M/P.

    Image 2:

    Image 2 is taken as the camera begins to pull back and dissolve to the exterior shot of the city. Here we see the large doorway, which was measured in Image 1. Now the measure is extended to the upper curved structure just above the doorway or another 1.22 M.

    Image 3:

    In Image 3 the dissolve from studio and actors is almost complete and the CGI model is clearly visible. In the center of the image is a large spire with what looks to be multi-segmented glass pane windows on it (I have marked this region for clarity). These windows are the same ones that can be seen behind the Stargate in the Atlantis Gate room.

    Just below this region two terraces are visible and the curvature of the structure with Sheppard and Weir is assumed to be identical to the one marked on this image in red. This means that the distance between the curvature and the terrace platform, which was 4.59 M in Image 2, is roughly 5 Pixels on Image 4. This means that the scaling for image 3 can be taken as 0.9 M/P. Which can be used to measure from the top of the terrace to the point at which the spire's cross section begins to increase. This is found to be 35.1 Meters.

    Image 4:

    Image 4 continues the camera's pullout while still centered on the CGI model. Here as in the other images, a known dimension was used to derive the scaling for the image. In this case the scaling is now at 2.34 M/P. That has been used to measure to an unknown point on the spire in the center of the image.

    Image 5:

    Now we can measure the entire of the top section of the spire to be 281.2 Meters. We however have a problem. There is no visible landmark from which to measure the height of the Atlantis Central Spire. The outlying buildings towards the arms of the city now directly block our view.

    Image 6:

    To solve this problem we will use triangulation. The structures marked A, B and C are visible on aerial shots of Atlantis and are located on the outermost parts the "snowflake". The city has a regular symmetrical structure, which radiates from the center outward, so it is easy to use these structures and other witness marks to project backwards. For example structure A is one of the three hexagonal structures that are outlined in red in the image below. Structures B, and C are the small towers nearby also shown on image 5 in red.

    Projecting backwards from three points on A, B, and C gives the location of D, which is the base of the central spire. Using previous scaling as a basis indicates the height of the central spire to be 610 Meters.

    Image 7:

    Image 7 is not from "Rising: Part II" but from a commercial opening during another episode. However it clearly shows the hexagonal shapes from Image 6 as well as the flanking small towers. It also provides a better view of the central tower in relation to the other concentric elements of Atlantis' cityscape.

    Image 8:

    Image 8 is taken from the climax of "The Eye" as a giant wave of water begins to wash over the recently re-activated Atlantis Shield. Using scaling to a know reference point, in this case the center spire, we can measure everything else of importance in the image.

    By projecting the line of the shield forward through the obstructing wave the shield radius is measured to be 1,690.1 Meters, with a height of 664.4 Meters. The wave itself is measured to be 57 Pixels on average which translates to a massive 221.5 Meter tall wall of water.

    It is worth noting that these measurements for Atlantis' shield at a diameter of 3.38 Km makes Atlantis' roughly as wide as the island of Manhattan (3.7 Km) but nowhere near as long (21.5 Km). The Central Spire at 610 Meters, larger than the former New York City WTC North and South towers which where only 412 Meters each.
    So, from this scaling, Atlantis' dimensions are:

    Height: 610 meters
    Width: 3380 meters
    Length: 3380 meters

    Might as well add that to the scaling picture
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  4. #84
    Captain Jarnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    Jarnin, I think you are still not getting what I am saying, you keep using facts that are said in the episode (10 by 5). That may be true, but it doesn't matter, using solely visual evidence, the segmetns are different in every shot.
    I'm using all available references to get an accurate scale, and you appear to think that is a bad thing.

    If you want to discount my scaling effort because I use accurate information from the show, then I think you've got a screw loose.

    This isn't a game where the rules tell us which information we can and cannot use. If you want to use flawed VFX references from Camelot, go right ahead. All I'm saying is that by ignoring references from the show, you're actually hurting your scaling effort in the end.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    We both agree that there is a VFX mistake, not because it is different from what the characters say (that's not the important part), but because it is inconsistent with other pieces of VFX throughout the series.

    You say it's the Ha'taks, I say it's the crowd, in all probablity, it's both. What I was asking is that you calculate things using visual evidence, since what you are trying to point out is a visual effects screwup, you don't need to involve the script, cuz then we got another kind of screwup.

    It's fixable, of course. They could always argue that we are seeing different ships, that the Crusade Warships are smaller than the Camelot warships or anything like that.

    The point is, there was a VFX mistake. Let's agree on that basic principle and leave it at that.

  6. #86
    Captain Jarnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    We both agree that there is a VFX mistake, not because it is different from what the characters say (that's not the important part), but because it is inconsistent with other pieces of VFX throughout the series.
    I agree. The problem is you're discounting what was said and relying on screwed up VFX of the supergate segment as your prime reference for scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    You say it's the Ha'taks, I say it's the crowd, in all probablity, it's both. What I was asking is that you calculate things using visual evidence, since what you are trying to point out is a visual effects screwup, you don't need to involve the script, cuz then we got another kind of screwup.
    I'm not trying to point out the visual effects screwup, we all know they're there. I'm trying to scrape together accurate dimensions for the Ori Starcraft using references in the show that don't conflict with one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    It's fixable, of course. They could always argue that we are seeing different ships, that the Crusade Warships are smaller than the Camelot warships or anything like that.
    The 12 Ha'taks, from three different factions (Jaffa, Tok'ra and Lucian Alliance) are all shown to be smaller than the Daedalus is long in Camelot.
    In the episode Off The Grid the true scale of a Ha'tak (A Lucian Alliance Ha'tak) is shown with the Odyssey in frame: The Odyssey is tiny compared to the Ha'taks.

    Camelot downsized the ships we know are massive (Ha'taks and O'neill) to make the Ori look powerful, and to fit everything into the shots. Had those ships been their normal dimensions, the Ori ships would have looked small, the supergate would have looked small, and the Odyssey and Korolev would have been tiny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    The point is, there was a VFX mistake. Let's agree on that basic principle and leave it at that.
    I'd be happy to leave it at that, but we disagree on which episode really messed everything up, as well as which information should be used to scale the Ori ships.

    FACT: The Ori supergate segments came through the StarGate on the planet Kallana. If you ignore this, then the supergates in Beachhead and Camelot didn't actually exist (it's a paradox).

    FACT: The Stargate has a inside diameter of about 5.5 meters. If you ignore this, then Tel'taks can fit through the StarGate, which we know isn't possible (it's another paradox).

    FACT: Carter reports the length of the supergate segments in the episode:
    Quote Originally Posted by Carter in Beachhead
    MARKS: Multiple contacts on multiple bearings, sir.

    MITCHELL: What the hell are they?

    CARTER: They're about ten meters long, but sensors read no internal space, no life signs aboard.
    If you ignore this, then the supergate segments can be whatever size you want, since there's no consistent scaling done as the episodes progress.

    I toss out all the VFX of the supergate segment, because they're all inconsistent and use the dialog from Carter as my reference.

    There are only three possibilities: either the Prometheus' telemetry was wrong, Carter didn't read the information on her screen correctly, or the supergate segments are 10 meters in length, and <5.5 meters in width.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  7. #87
    Captain Sauron18's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    I was trying to find out the visual effects scaling screwups, my point was, solely the visuals, regardless of whether it made sense or not, just trying to find out what part did not fit.

    And let's face it, the Segment's have been screwed up since Beachhead, so I don't even go there and simply ignore it and let the show go on.


    Oh right, and just a PS. If the stargate Segments were to be consistent with the whole "coming through the stargate" thing, they'd have to be a maximum of 3 1/2 meters. That's the biggest that can fit through the gate.
    Last edited by Sauron18; April 23rd, 2006 at 04:19 PM.

  8. #88
    Captain Jarnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    This thread is to find out the visual effects scaling screwups, my point was, if you want to find the size of the Ori ships using dialogue and everything, do it in the Ori Ship thread, this one is specifically to use what we actually see, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
    Um, no. The original point of this thread was to properly scale the ships in the StarGate universe so we could compare them with each other. Here, I'll even quote the original poster:
    Quote Originally Posted by Battera
    Alot of fans have no idea how big some ships are compared to one another. Like Ha'tak to prometheus, or the Daedalus to an Ori warship, so inorder to end this quarrel, I have created a size comparison chart for the ships of stargate. If you see something that you think is incorrect, please post your opinion, and if possible screencaps supporting you.:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're just posting in the wrong thread (trying to find the size of the Ori ship).
    So now I'm not wrong, I'm just ingorant where a post like this should be? I'm sorry, refer to my above quote from Battera; this is the right place.

    Like I said already multiple times, I'm using the unconflicting data from the show to scale ships. And this is the right place to post it, since that is the point of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    And let's face it, the Segment's have been screwed up since Beachhead, so I don't even go there and simply ignore it and let the show go on.
    Which is why, as I've said before, I'm using the direct quote from Carter and the canonized information about the interior width of the StarGate on Kallana as my references: They're canon! Just because you don't like my results doesn't mean they're not accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    Oh right, and just a PS. If the stargate Segments were to be consistent with the whole "coming through the stargate" thing, they'd have to be a maximum of 3 1/2 meters. That's the biggest that can fit through the gate.
    Where did you come up with that figure!? Cite your references, otherwise your just spouting numbers.

    Also, if you draw it out, you'll see that you're estimation of 3.5 meters is wrong. Just draw it out...
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    About the thread's, yeah I changed my mistake quite a few hours back, yet it still remains we were talking about different things. (It doesn't matter anymore)

    About the stargate's maximum size, it's pretty obvious, the stargate itself may be close to 5 meters, but the space through which things come is a lot smaller, in basically any proper pic of a stargate you can see that there is no chance it's a 5 meter hole. The actual space itself has a diameter or 3 1/2, maximum 4 meters.

    As for proof, here are two good pictures, which depict an inner height of approximately 3.7 or 4 meters. It's not exact, but it's certainly not 5 meters:



    Last edited by Sauron18; April 23rd, 2006 at 07:25 PM.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    About the thread's, yeah I changed my mistake quite a few hours back, yet it still remains we were talking about different things. (It doesn't matter anymore)

    About the stargate's maximum size, it's pretty obvious, the stargate itself may be close to 5 meters, but the space through which things come is a lot smaller, in basically any proper pic of a stargate you can see that there is no chance it's a 5 meter hole. The actual space itself has a diameter or 3 1/2, maximum 4 meters.

    As for proof, here are two good pictures, which depict an inner height of approximately 3.7 or 4 meters. It's not exact, but it's certainly not 5 meters:



    Try a horizontal line instead of a vertical one. The ramp is in the way for those pictures to represent an accurate measurement.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  11. #91
    Captain Sauron18's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    It's not that different, if you notice I went a bit down. Either way. It's around 4 meters, and it's not 5.

    5 is probably the whole thing, with half a meter being the length between the outside and the event horizon.

  12. #92
    Captain Jarnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    It's not that different, if you notice I went a bit down. Either way. It's around 4 meters, and it's not 5.
    First you say 3.5, now 4. Just scale it correctly and put it to rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sauron18
    5 is probably the whole thing, with half a meter being the length between the outside and the event horizon.
    Like I said before, it's been scaled plenty of times before, and the gate is 22 feet in diameter.

    Wikipedia Stargate Entry
    Stargates are typically 22 feet (6.7 m) in diameter and made of a fictional heavy mineral called Naqahdah.
    I know a lot of people scoff at wikipedia for being an open source encyclopedia, so here are some more for you:

    Production information from the episode Children of the Gods, found on RDAnderson.com
    Two Stargates were built for the show, each more than 20 feet in diameter.

    The Stargate The first, reconstructed from parts of the one seen in the original film, was used for exterior scenes on planet "Chulak," where a hideous species of predators are using the Gate for nefarious purposes. It also doubles as the Stargate on Abydos.

    The second Stargate is part of a large, two-story permanent set at Vancouver's Bridge Studios that represents a secretive U.S. Air Force base. In addition to the Stargate, it houses the Control Room, replete with sophisticated computers and tracking devices, a Briefing Room, and a series of circular corridors that leads to the Gate.

    The Stargate Made of steel and fiberglass, this fully-automated Stargate is much more sophisticated and is capable of rotating and emitting light. A specially-designed 22-foot circular gear was constructed that turns the Gate on a precise pinion drive wheel using an eight-horsepower electric motor. The entire apparatus is controlled by a custom computer program that reads -- with the help of a sensoring eye -- the laser pulses emitted by seven chevrons on the Gate. This mechanism allows the computer to rotate the Gate in either direction and stop it on a dime.
    Stargate Entry on Alderac Entertainment (creators of the Stargate RPG)
    The device we know as the Stargate (a literal translation provided by Dr. Daniel Jackson of the Goa’uld word ‘chappa’ai’) is a ring-shaped device, roughly 22 feet wide from outside edge to outside edge.
    DVD review of the extras from season 4's DVD set
    Extras include (for the first time) optional commentaries on every episode by SG-1 directors, visual-effects supervisors, and cinematographers; these are geektastic yack-tracks, with an immense amount of technical detail and background information (frequent show director Peter DeLuise's tracks are especially entertaining); featurettes on visual effects and the show's alien races; and the excellent 25-minute featurette "Stargate SG-1: Timeline to the Future — Legacy of the Gate," part one of a three-part documentary, which starts with the show's conception and covers a lot of ground from casting to some genuinely surprising details — like the fact that the 22-foot-high stargate created for the show actually turns and locks into place via computer operation, with keyboard commands determining the combination of chevrons for the gate's "address." Five keep-cases in a paperboard slipcase.
    I can dig up more references, but I think you get my point.

    You've tried to discredit all of my references to this point. First you said that Carter's estimate of 10 meters for the supergate segment shouldn't be used. Now you're trying to convince me that I don't know the interior dimensions of the Stargate, even though it's very easy to find out using MS paint and a decent screenshot.
    When you tried to scale the gate with your numbers, you obviously didn't scale it correctly, which I can see with my naked eye, so I asked that you use a horizontal line instead of a vertical one. Then you say that 3.5 meters is probably not right, it's closer to 4 meters.

    Now lets take a look at what I've provided: I did two scalings, not one. I used two references, not one. The best part is, the dimensions I ended up with from both scalings came up exactly the same. Let me say that again: they are exactly the same, in both scalings I did.

    You've done one scaling. You came up with one set of numbers. Use a different reference, and do another scaling. If it confirms your first set of numbers, then I'll continue this discussion. If you don't get the same results, you have a problem with your technique.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  13. #93
    Captain Jarnin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    You're right, the interior diameter of the gate isn't 5.5 meters: It's exactly 16.5 feet, which is 5.02 meters.


    I'll redo my work and post it tomorrow based on this picture.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Well, here is a small update:


    You look but you do not see. You listen but you do not hear. You cannot accept us, but we are here to stay. You think we are just a shadow, a bad memory that will go away if you ignore us long enough but we won't.

    We are human too whether you like it or not. We are here and our time is now. Together we can only soar. We will remain strong forever more, and nothing can quell our pride.

    -LGBT-

  15. #95
    First Lieutenant BC - 303's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    regarding the supergare, i reacon the peices expand in space, like they flod outwards to make themselves bigger, as seen that they small enough to fit through the stargate one minute are bigger then tel'tek's the next.

    What i mean by fold outwards is they leave an area of nothing in each sector later, when they come out they are compact.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by BC - 303
    regarding the supergare, i reacon the peices expand in space, like they flod outwards to make themselves bigger, as seen that they small enough to fit through the stargate one minute are bigger then tel'tek's the next.

    What i mean by fold outwards is they leave an area of nothing in each sector later, when they come out they are compact.
    That sounds pretty good.
    Didn't NASA want to do something like that with a space ship?

  17. #97
    First Lieutenant BC - 303's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    thats interseting, for those who dont understand my olding out, i dont mean metal expanding on contact to heat(natural), i mean like (this is the best metophor i can think of) A transformer, transforming.
    Just a question, is the daniel jackson smaller then the o'neill, because thats what my scaling sujests, as DJ = Ha'tak, but O'neill is much > Ha'tak.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    dude can you pplz make a ship scale that uses all this info....comon i wanna c wut the scale is!
    Well i was bored and decided to make a borg vs stargate sig, so enjoy...btw the explosions and ships look weird i know, its hard to make them blendhttp://i391.photobucket.com/albums/o...einvasion3.jpg
    Anime signature in spoiler tag
    Spoiler:
    Here is an anime sig, i was bored so i randomly picked a maid pic and photoshoped it
    http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/o...lsigfinal3.jpg


  19. #99
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Did anyone ever take into consideration that there are several versions of atlantis that are used for the show???

    Rainmaker has a couple versions and other studio's have several as well. Each one of them is different in their own way.

    Rainmaker modeled the original master city. They also made another version (alot less poly's) for specific shots. Rainmaker no longer does all the work for SG1 and SGA, so now there are other studio's that do the work, and they have modeled their own city's and ive noticed that the new ones (not modeled by Rainmaker) are scaled higher to look much bigger, which makes the original one look wrong.

    Personally, I dont go buy the recent atlantis shots. I only go by the master copy used in "Rising", "The Storm", "The Eye", and "The Seige".

    And there are 2 balcony's. The large one (which was seen at the end of "Rising" where everyone was talking), and then there is the smaller one (which I was referring too in my earlier reply) thats on the side of the gate room which can only support several people.

    From my own calculations, Atlantis is only about a mile from one end to the other.

    And the Daedalus landed on the water. NOT ON THE PIER. If it would hae landed on the pier, it would have crushed the towers and small buildings. If you look closely at the landing rendering, its hovering over the water, not the pier, and Bruce Wolshyn was saying in an interiew that he was excited about doing the shot where the Daedalus landed on the water.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Ship Scaling Sprites

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Neil
    Did anyone ever take into consideration that there are several versions of atlantis that are used for the show???
    Yeah, I covered that in post #71 in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Neil
    From my own calculations, Atlantis is only about a mile from one end to the other.
    There's already an accurate scaling in post #83 in this thread. If you have different numbers, post your scalings so we can judge your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Neil
    And the Daedalus landed on the water. NOT ON THE PIER. If it would hae landed on the pier, it would have crushed the towers and small buildings. If you look closely at the landing rendering, its hovering over the water, not the pier, and Bruce Wolshyn was saying in an interiew that he was excited about doing the shot where the Daedalus landed on the water.
    Which episode? Post some screen shots.
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

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