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  1. #1
    Rattata
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    Default A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    In the Fourth Horseman Pt 2 the Prior that got disabled began preaching to Orlin when Orlin begun to speak. Naturally we all listened to Orlin and tuned out to what the Prior was saying... but he did say some very important stuff.

    Now, I'm at work so I can't really look up his exact words... But he said that the O'ri were born from the rift (no doubt the moment the Alterrans split off) and that the Alterrans travelled the universe and spread death and destruction wherever they went, hence evil. What if the O'ri are destroying the Ancients in as a precautionary measure to protect themselves? Let's look at what the Ancients brought the Universe.


    1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

    2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

    3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

    4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

    5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

    6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

    7. The gate warping device Anubis used


    Now, my theory is that the Ancients like fighting... and so they go around picking fights and creating enemies. It's possible even that the Wraith and O'ri were the only enemies capable of overpowering them. *shrugs*

    Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement. The O'ri seem like the kind of race that would've ascended through meditation and spiritual means.

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant deadman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    interesting theory, I mised that episode, so I'll make sure to catch it if it is on again

  3. #3
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement.

    Yes, during the course of 50 million years you are bound to make a few mistakes.

  4. #4
    Second Lieutenant npattis's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    But it will be interesting to see if the Ancients are somewhat evil. Would make an EXCELLENT story arch.

  5. #5

    Thor Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

    2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

    3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

    4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

    5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

    6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

    7. The gate warping device Anubis used
    1. The Wraith were an accident, even if it were suspect about the Ancients claim that it was an accident, our experience with the near virulent nature of Iratus bug DNA lends itself to supporting the accident explanation.

    2. Chaos perhaps but how is it evil? You can not actually change the future because it is a loop and everything resets when the loop restarts

    3. The Dakara DEVICE was not a weapon. It was constructed after all or very near all life in the galaxy had been wiped out by the plague as a means to prepare the galaxy for recreation. Yes we used it as a weapon, but in the same way as someone can pick up a meat cleaver and chop someones head off. Does that make the meat cleaver a weapon in the same sense as a gun? No because its intended purpose in being created is to chop food for eating, not killing.

    4. We don't know exactly that it kills, we know that it interferese with the energy frequency that the Ascended exist at. For all we know it merely renders them harmless, in the same way Oma neutralized Anubis, niether is "dead" but they are locked in an eternal state where they neutralize each others ability to affect the universe.

    5. I dont remember the Asuran's who were they?

    6. Calling the gatenetwork evil because it allowed the goa'uld to take over the galaxy is like saying a company that paves roads is guilty of aiding and abetting a foriegn countries invasion because their tanks used the roads.


    If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.

  6. #6
    Rattata
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    1. The Wraith were an accident, even if it were suspect about the Ancients claim that it was an accident, our experience with the near virulent nature of Iratus bug DNA lends itself to supporting the accident explanation.

    2. Chaos perhaps but how is it evil? You can not actually change the future because it is a loop and everything resets when the loop restarts

    3. The Dakara DEVICE was not a weapon. It was constructed after all or very near all life in the galaxy had been wiped out by the plague as a means to prepare the galaxy for recreation. Yes we used it as a weapon, but in the same way as someone can pick up a meat cleaver and chop someones head off. Does that make the meat cleaver a weapon in the same sense as a gun? No because its intended purpose in being created is to chop food for eating, not killing.

    4. We don't know exactly that it kills, we know that it interferese with the energy frequency that the Ascended exist at. For all we know it merely renders them harmless, in the same way Oma neutralized Anubis, niether is "dead" but they are locked in an eternal state where they neutralize each others ability to affect the universe.

    5. I dont remember the Asuran's who were they?

    6. Calling the gatenetwork evil because it allowed the goa'uld to take over the galaxy is like saying a company that paves roads is guilty of aiding and abetting a foriegn countries invasion because their tanks used the roads.


    If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.
    1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.

    2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.

    3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.

    4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.

    5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to Replicators

    6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    If anything an argument can be made that the Ancients were irresponsible and arrogant because they left behind loads of technology that could cause harm in the wrong hands and arrogant because they feel that by Ascending that the consequences of their discoveries being used by other races are not their concern, but you can't consider them the bad guys. Litter bugs yes, evil no.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to Replicators
    If it's related to season 3 of Atlantis then it's spoiler information and needs to be contained in a [spoiler ] tag.

  8. #8
    Captain The Ori's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Hey Peeps, Yeh I think maybe the Asurans may be the new enemy in Atlantis. Maybe. But what an incredible story line linking ythe Asurans back to the S01 Ep "Hot Zone" and also to the Replicator story line as well. Hmmm. I like the ideas peeps.

  9. #9
    Rattata
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    I feel we're not actually giving enough detail to justify spoiler tags. Though if a mod feels we are then I'll be happy to edit.

  10. #10

    Thor Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.
    Not neccesarily. The story is that the Iratus bug attacked humans and became the wraith. The humans were created by the Ancients and would have had contact with them. The only technology and language around was that of the Ancients. So it is no surprise that in taking over and assimilating new technology and language into their new society it would be Ancient.

    2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.
    How is it causing chaos on purpose? The story is that they created the device to give themselves more time to find a cure. Thats all it does. At first I agreed with you that it caused chaos but now on reflection I rescind that because it doesn't. Those caguht in the loop as a side effect dont even know they are, only the people that operate the device remain unchanged. If everyone that was affected remembered and kept looping THAT would be chaos, but there is no evidence that the Ancients used it in such a manner or that it can even be used in any harmful way.

    3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.
    No the device does nothing to restore life in the galaxy and although that is what most people believe and assume it is incorrect. Go back and rewatch the explanation of the device. it generates an energy way that breaks down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted. there is no mention that the Dakaran device is the device that does the retarting and it is ludicrous to think that it is. It is an unfocused energy wave, it can not restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets, the ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life. The Dakaran device is just a reset button, thats all it was meant to be and the Ancients didnt try to obscure that fact. So nothing insidiuous there

    4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.
    Is a jail cell for a violent criminal evil because it prevents them from going about their business? Same thing.

    5. Stand by for Season 3 of Atlantis ;-) These guys are probably related to Replicators
    If you are talking about the new enemy that is supposed to be the one that made the virus ok Im with you, but I havent seen any spoilers to say that they are Ancients themselves

    6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.
    No we have evidence that ONE ancient did some time traveling, Janus. And the other Ancients were really pissed off when they found out that Weir came back in time with the device because they are really strict about not screwing with the time line. janus broke the rule on the one planet, possibly as an experiment, but we have absolutely no evidence that he did it anywhere else, or any other Ancients ever did it either, but based on the other Ancients reactions in "Before I Sleep" It is inceribly unlikely they did. When the Ancients returned from Atlantis they were few in number and would have arrived in Antartica. The would not have known of Ra if he was there yet, though it is unlikely since then there would have been two active gates with DHD's on the planet that would have caused problems. At the point that they returned the Ancient empire would have already disappeared so they would have been alone, the rest of their kind already Ascended. What was a hand ful of them supposed to do about the Goa'uld? Their kind had moved on, it was no longer their concern, the galaxy was a different place, so they went to join their race by Ascending. Perhaps its a bit apathetic towards the people left behind to suffer under the goa'uld, but certainly not evil.

  11. #11
    Rattata
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    spg_1983, Agree to disagree I guess. Our contradicting points are all a matter of interpretation of the information we've been given thus far. I don't see a point in debating further, with you anyway.

  12. #12
    First Lieutenant Chutzpah's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Personally i think there has been enough evidence throughout both SG1 and SGA to concluded that they are not evil. A couple off the top of my head

    - They were in that Alliance, one member was the Asgard. They don't strike me as the type of conspire with evil races

    - In Aurora, they have shown they want to destroy they Wraith.

    - The translation of the writing on the stairs of Atlantis (no idea if that is correct)

    - Contact with ascended beings. They all seem pretty goodie goodie to me, and when know that ascesion doesn't automatically make you a good person.

    - The Ancient in Antartica healed jack and from what i understand, sacrificed herself.

    Sure they may have made mistakes and their technology may not have been used for it's intended purpose but that in no way makes them the bad guys.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    I declare the winner of this thread: spg1983.

    The reason? He rebuttles contained cogent thought.

    I'm sorry nimf, but you made no cogent arguments for the Ancients being evil. Your entire hypothesis is built upon pure conjecture and a lack of sufficient evidence.

    Spg1983 fired back with complete statements with official canon as his source, not personal opinion. His analogous argument (in reference to your fourth point) is a good one.

    Simply put, the canon of the show, at this point, supports spg1983's point of view more than it does yours.

  14. #14
    Rattata
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by Bragi
    I declare the winner of this thread: spg1983.

    The reason? He rebuttles contained cogent thought.

    I'm sorry nimf, but you made no cogent arguments for the Ancients being evil. Your entire hypothesis is built upon pure conjecture and a lack of sufficient evidence.

    Spg1983 fired back with complete statements with official canon as his source, not personal opinion. His analogous argument (in reference to your fourth point) is a good one.

    Simply put, the canon of the show, at this point, supports spg1983's point of view more than it does yours.
    I'm sorry Miss Bragi, I'll structure arguments in future that account for your intellect. Go **** yourself.

  15. #15

    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    The creation of the Wraith wasn't an accident it was negligence.

    The Ancients aren't evil. The Ori certainly seem evil from what we've seen so far.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    The Ancients are in no way perfect. I'll fully admit that. But evil, they are not. The Ori are definitely the "bad guys" of this story. No doubt in my mind.

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  17. #17
    Second Lieutenant JUNIOR's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.


    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    Not neccesarily. The story is that the Iratus bug attacked humans and became the wraith. The humans were created by the Ancients and would have had contact with them. The only technology and language around was that of the Ancients. So it is no surprise that in taking over and assimilating new technology and language into their new society it would be Ancient.



    Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation


    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    How is it causing chaos on purpose? The story is that they created the device to give themselves more time to find a cure. Thats all it does. At first I agreed with you that it caused chaos but now on reflection I rescind that because it doesn't. Those caguht in the loop as a side effect dont even know they are, only the people that operate the device remain unchanged. If everyone that was affected remembered and kept looping THAT would be chaos, but there is no evidence that the Ancients used it in such a manner or that it can even be used in any harmful way.



    IMO I don’t find the machine evil at all it’s a scientific marvel. I mean it could be used for evil (trap the Ancient’s enemies in a time loop), but that’s not what it was for (at least not as far as the translations explain). Daniel translated text that explained how the Ancients were trying to go back in time in order to stop the plague problem. They ultimately couldn’t make the device work at that time (they created a time looping machine instead of time travel) so they gave up. There was no mention in the writings that Daniel, Jack, and Teal’c translated that showed that there was even any life on the other planets that were in the loop (they could have all been wiped out by the plague at that time) so it could have been just the Ancients that were developing and testing the device that were enveloped in the time loop.


    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    No the device does nothing to restore life in the galaxy and although that is what most people believe and assume it is incorrect. Go back and rewatch the explanation of the device. it generates an energy way that breaks down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted. there is no mention that the Dakaran device is the device that does the retarting and it is ludicrous to think that it is. It is an unfocused energy wave, it can not restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets, the ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life. The Dakaran device is just a reset button, thats all it was meant to be and the Ancients didnt try to obscure that fact. So nothing insidiuous there



    You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.


    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    Is a jail cell for a violent criminal evil because it prevents them from going about their business? Same thing.



    I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’t


    Quote Originally Posted by thenimf
    6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.


    Quote Originally Posted by spg_1983
    No we have evidence that ONE ancient did some time traveling, Janus. And the other Ancients were really pissed off when they found out that Weir came back in time with the device because they are really strict about not screwing with the time line. janus broke the rule on the one planet, possibly as an experiment, but we have absolutely no evidence that he did it anywhere else, or any other Ancients ever did it either, but based on the other Ancients reactions in "Before I Sleep" It is inceribly unlikely they did. When the Ancients returned from Atlantis they were few in number and would have arrived in Antartica. The would not have known of Ra if he was there yet, though it is unlikely since then there would have been two active gates with DHD's on the planet that would have caused problems. At the point that they returned the Ancient empire would have already disappeared so they would have been alone, the rest of their kind already Ascended. What was a hand ful of them supposed to do about the Goa'uld? Their kind had moved on, it was no longer their concern, the galaxy was a different place, so they went to join their race by Ascending. Perhaps its a bit apathetic towards the people left behind to suffer under the goa'uld, but certainly not evil.



    Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).
    Last edited by JUNIOR; March 16th, 2006 at 10:09 PM.

  18. #18
    Rattata
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    Smile Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Kudos JUNIOR

  19. #19
    Major JanusAncient's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    Quote Originally Posted by Chutzpah
    Personally i think there has been enough evidence throughout both SG1 and SGA to concluded that they are not evil. A couple off the top of my head

    - They were in that Alliance, one member was the Asgard. They don't strike me as the type of conspire with evil races
    The Ancients are a very advanced race, if they came in and said "hey we are responsible for your creation, because of us you are alive," the Asgard, and any younger race would do whatever they said, without question, like Daniel and the rest of Sg-1 are currently doing!

    - In Aurora, they have shown they want to destroy they Wraith.
    Actually, the only thing that the Ancients have shown us, is that they are willing to destroy anyone they consider a threat to their well-being.

    - Contact with ascended beings. They all seem pretty goodie goodie to me, and when know that ascesion doesn't automatically make you a good person.
    They don't really seem anything actually, good or evil, they allow destruction to take place with no regard for life beneath.

    - The Ancient in Antartica healed jack and from what i understand, sacrificed herself.
    Spoiler:
    In the season ten premiere Adria heals her mother Vala, even with Daniel near by intent on shooting her with a Zat.


    Sure they may have made mistakes and their technology may not have been used for it's intended purpose but that in no way makes them the bad guys.
    This is of course true.
    Spoiler:
    The Ori believe that what they are doing is for the salvation of all life in the universe, and if they are telling the truth, the Ancients agenda is simply bigger than us.

  20. #20
    Staff Sergeant TjomasC's Avatar
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    Default Re: A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

    I think there's some good points here.

    One thing worth noting is that no-ones perfect. There was some poem I had to learn for my GCSE's that basically was about one guy who seemed pretty good, but did some pretty nasty things. Maybe the Anchients where like that. Although comapred to the Ori, they're tame... I mean, they havn't actually gone on a killing rampage yet.

    And I'm not sure if that time loop machine was actually meant to loop. If I remember correctly, I think it was meant to reverse time to a point where those working on the cure could solve the problem. It kept looping, and so failed to help them. Although I could be completely wrong.

    I also don't think we know as much as the people in Atlantis do about the wraith... I have a feeling the Ancients wrote down exactly what happened, and that they wouldn't have messed with their genetics. They're all against that, they prefer to ascend the difficult way. As for language, anyone who was turned into a wraith would still remember the customs and language from when they where Ancient.

    As for all the gate realted stuff, how where the Ancients meant to:
    1. Realise something like the Gou'uld would evolve
    2. Get rid of the many, many gates that existed when they did, bearing in mind that there wearn't that many left after Atlantis fell


    Thats just my view. Sorry for repeating anything other people have said.

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