A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

[the fifth man]

The Ancients are in no way perfect. I'll fully admit that. But evil, they are not. The Ori are definitely the "bad guys" of this story. No doubt in my mind.

[JUNIOR]

1. Apart from heresay stories, no evidence suggests that this was an accident. In fact, the Wraith have so much relation to Ancient technology, and even share the same written language (virtually identical), so it's easy to connect the dots and see the Ancients made the Wraith on purpose.

Not neccesarily. The story is that the Iratus bug attacked humans and became the wraith. The humans were created by the Ancients and would have had contact with them. The only technology and language around was that of the Ancients. So it is no surprise that in taking over and assimilating new technology and language into their new society it would be Ancient.

Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation

2. I find it pretty evil to cause chaos on purpose. You could kill someone everyday and they would never remember... crap like that.

How is it causing chaos on purpose? The story is that they created the device to give themselves more time to find a cure. Thats all it does. At first I agreed with you that it caused chaos but now on reflection I rescind that because it doesn't. Those caguht in the loop as a side effect dont even know they are, only the people that operate the device remain unchanged. If everyone that was affected remembered and kept looping THAT would be chaos, but there is no evidence that the Ancients used it in such a manner or that it can even be used in any harmful way.

IMO I don’t find the machine evil at all it’s a scientific marvel. I mean it could be used for evil (trap the Ancient’s enemies in a time loop), but that’s not what it was for (at least not as far as the translations explain). Daniel translated text that explained how the Ancients were trying to go back in time in order to stop the plague problem. They ultimately couldn’t make the device work at that time (they created a time looping machine instead of time travel) so they gave up. There was no mention in the writings that Daniel, Jack, and Teal’c translated that showed that there was even any life on the other planets that were in the loop (they could have all been wiped out by the plague at that time) so it could have been just the Ancients that were developing and testing the device that were enveloped in the time loop.

3. It is only theorized that device was used to restore all life in the galaxy... and if the Ancients covered up the Wraith I doubt they'd share the truth about this, considering it's a far more serious threat.

No the device does nothing to restore life in the galaxy and although that is what most people believe and assume it is incorrect. Go back and rewatch the explanation of the device. it generates an energy way that breaks down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted. there is no mention that the Dakaran device is the device that does the retarting and it is ludicrous to think that it is. It is an unfocused energy wave, it can not restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets, the ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life. The Dakaran device is just a reset button, thats all it was meant to be and the Ancients didnt try to obscure that fact. So nothing insidiuous there

You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.

4. Regardless of what it does to them, it is a weapon that interferes with the way they go about their business and in that sense it is capable of evil.

Is a jail cell for a violent criminal evil because it prevents them from going about their business? Same thing.

I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’t

6. Note that the Ancients did some time travelling and were aware that the Goa'uld would take over the galaxy one day, yet put no measures in place to prevent it. Also, they did nothing when they went back to Earth and Ra came over.

No we have evidence that ONE ancient did some time traveling, Janus. And the other Ancients were really pissed off when they found out that Weir came back in time with the device because they are really strict about not screwing with the time line. janus broke the rule on the one planet, possibly as an experiment, but we have absolutely no evidence that he did it anywhere else, or any other Ancients ever did it either, but based on the other Ancients reactions in "Before I Sleep" It is inceribly unlikely they did. When the Ancients returned from Atlantis they were few in number and would have arrived in Antartica. The would not have known of Ra if he was there yet, though it is unlikely since then there would have been two active gates with DHD's on the planet that would have caused problems. At the point that they returned the Ancient empire would have already disappeared so they would have been alone, the rest of their kind already Ascended. What was a hand ful of them supposed to do about the Goa'uld? Their kind had moved on, it was no longer their concern, the galaxy was a different place, so they went to join their race by Ascending. Perhaps its a bit apathetic towards the people left behind to suffer under the goa'uld, but certainly not evil.

Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).

[thenimf]

Kudos JUNIOR

[JanusAncient]

Personally i think there has been enough evidence throughout both SG1 and SGA to concluded that they are not evil. A couple off the top of my head

- They were in that Alliance, one member was the Asgard. They don't strike me as the type of conspire with evil races

The Ancients are a very advanced race, if they came in and said "hey we are responsible for your creation, because of us you are alive," the Asgard, and any younger race would do whatever they said, without question, like Daniel and the rest of Sg-1 are currently doing!

- In Aurora, they have shown they want to destroy they Wraith.

Actually, the only thing that the Ancients have shown us, is that they are willing to destroy anyone they consider a threat to their well-being.

- Contact with ascended beings. They all seem pretty goodie goodie to me, and when know that ascesion doesn't automatically make you a good person.

They don't really seem anything actually, good or evil, they allow destruction to take place with no regard for life beneath.

- The Ancient in Antartica healed jack and from what i understand, sacrificed herself.

Spoiler:

In the season ten premiere Adria heals her mother Vala, even with Daniel near by intent on shooting her with a Zat.

Sure they may have made mistakes and their technology may not have been used for it's intended purpose but that in no way makes them the bad guys.

This is of course true.

Spoiler:

The Ori believe that what they are doing is for the salvation of all life in the universe, and if they are telling the truth, the Ancients agenda is simply bigger than us.

[TjomasC]

I think there's some good points here.

One thing worth noting is that no-ones perfect. There was some poem I had to learn for my GCSE's that basically was about one guy who seemed pretty good, but did some pretty nasty things. Maybe the Anchients where like that. Although comapred to the Ori, they're tame... I mean, they havn't actually gone on a killing rampage yet.

And I'm not sure if that time loop machine was actually meant to loop. If I remember correctly, I think it was meant to reverse time to a point where those working on the cure could solve the problem. It kept looping, and so failed to help them. Although I could be completely wrong.

I also don't think we know as much as the people in Atlantis do about the wraith... I have a feeling the Ancients wrote down exactly what happened, and that they wouldn't have messed with their genetics. They're all against that, they prefer to ascend the difficult way. As for language, anyone who was turned into a wraith would still remember the customs and language from when they where Ancient.

As for all the gate realted stuff, how where the Ancients meant to:

1. Realise something like the Gou'uld would evolve
2. Get rid of the many, many gates that existed when they did, bearing in mind that there wearn't that many left after Atlantis fell

Thats just my view. Sorry for repeating anything other people have said.

[*Crash*]

Well i think the "Orii" might actually believe what they are doing is right.

We only know a fraction of the Ancient and Orii past, and that is what has been written/recorded.

The History we know has always been portrayed by the victors/ones in charge. (Or in stargate sence "areas" such as our galaxy)

Your not gonna write bad stuff about yourself if their is an opposing force to choose round the corner

[MarshAngel]

Well i think the "Orii" might actually believe what they are doing is right.

So did the Crusaders and their Jihad minded counterparts, so did Hitler, European Roman, and Arabic enslavers, George W. etc. What you believe about yourself is meaningless in the face of the judgment of others, in this case us. And since they're trying to kill us for not accepting their brand of mental enslavement, I'm not inclined to give them the respect of having good intentions on their side.

We only know a fraction of the Ancient and Orii past, and that is what has been written/recorded.

The History we know has always been portrayed by the victors/ones in charge. (Or in stargate sence "areas" such as our galaxy)

Your not gonna write bad stuff about yourself if their is an opposing force to choose round the corner

All true but we're going to believe in that which works for our benefit. So far we've used Ancient technology to:

Travel to other worlds to gain technology to defeat the goa'uld
Defend our planet against Anubis
The knowledge they left behind helped us make allies of the Asgard, save Sam & Team from death by Solar radiation among other things.
Defeat the replicators and help the Asgard
Hold back the Wraith from Atlantis

and more I can't recall right now

The Ancient score card:

One ancient has saved our ass from the Wraith at least once. Chaya.

One ancient has ascended a friend and important person in the battles we've faced (Daniel), thus saving him from death, twice. Oma

The same ancient ascended an entire population rather than let them die

One more ancient helped us formulate a cure for a deadly disease thus sacrificing enlightenment and eternal life. Orlin

The same ancient, mistakenly helped a world fight against an enemy.

One Ancient came back to build a weapon to help fight a battle we are about to face. Merlin

Two? ascended beings, Oma & Shifu, helped us understand that searching fir Goa'uld knowledge was a mistake we could avoid.

One, before he ascended, wrote a prophecy (It's good to be King) that helped us prepare for the goa'uld.

One, before he ascended, made sure we'd be able to visit and make use of Atlantis without dying a horrible death by drowning. Janus


The Ori Score Card:

They were annoying enough to compel the ancients to leave for a galaxy far far away.

Upon discovering we exist, their followers immediately burned Vala to death

The Ori killed Harrid and Sallis for heresey

The Ori destroyed at least one, possibly two occupied planets to create their Supergate

The Ori impregnated Vala against her will

The Ori have built an army to kill us all

The Ori have unleased plagues on several worlds: disease, flesh eating bugs, zombies, and all kill indiscriminately.

The Ori's only available options are worship or die and worship and die.

The scorecard is definitely on the side of the Ancients. It doesn't matter what part they've played in their issues with the Ori because it's the Ori who are out to kill us. If the Ancients have some elaborate plan to play us for their benefit, we have an awful lot of freedom doing so which places them well ahead of the Ori. We can't judge them on the theory that they "might" be evil especially when faced with someone inarguably so.

We deal with what we can see when we can see it. We can be paranoid about the ones not trying to kill us right now later.

[spg_1983]

Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation

You are right that we don't have the full story because we werent there. However based on what we do know from SG-1 about the Ancients and what has been explained by the characters in Atlantis there is no contradictory evidence to Becketts theory and there is nothing to suggest that the Ancients intentionally created the Wraith or the was any malicious intent in their creation. We don't have true conclusive evidence either way, but we do have Becketts theory that it was accidental and lacking contradictory evidence there is no reason to assume the Ancients were evil. My point is there is little in the evidence either way, and Becketts theory (a much more informed person about the issue) explains the creation of the wraith. There is no evidence as of yet to contradict him. When such evidence comes along I will happily concede the point, but we can not just assume he is wrong with out any evidence because we want the Ancients to be evil.

You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.

It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Now we have come across Ancient devices that can creat and modify life on a smaller scale. The Talchak device that Anubis used to bring his Kull warriors to life, and the genetic modification device we have encountered twice. So taking into acount the existance of Ancient devices that deal with the creation of life and simple common sense and logic in thinking about the Dakaran device and how it works, it is not my opinion, or a theory, but common sense. Im not saying it is a fact because it hasnt been explicitily stated and TPTB have decided many times to make up completely illogical and ridiculous answers to questions like this in the past and they could very well decide to clarify at some point that the Dakaran device does in fact create life as it destroys it, but that woul be the height of idiocy and will respond that if the decide to take such a course.

I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’t

That is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.

Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).

Ok you are right we don't know it was Janus that used the time machin in "Its Good to Be King" however Janus was an Atlantian and built his original device in Atlantis which Weir used to go back in time. The Atlantian council knew nothing about it so they knew nothing about the future, Janus built it in secret. The deice in "Its Good to Be King" was the same as the one Weir used, so it is likely either janus built it, or someone else did on his designs, but it had to have been after he returned to MW. So at least up until that point the Ancients had no idea what the future held, and were opposed to the idea of knowing and changing it.

[spg_1983]

Actually thenimf is right, apart from here say in the series mainly by Dr. Beckett, and McKay there’s no solid proof that the Iratus bug attacked humans and evolved when coming in contact with human DNA. For all we know the Ancients could have been experimenting with these bugs in order to try and make themselves better a species, but the people (Lanteans) that they experimented on turned into Wraith and started to procreate their lineage (this is also a theory I’ve heard). Either one of you could be totally right, but as of now it hasn’t been explained with solid enough proof to be accepted as fact (Ancient writings, a Wraith or Ascended/mortal Ancient explaining how the Wraith came to be, etc.) just some theories, and speculation

You are right that we don't have the full story because we werent there. However based on what we do know from SG-1 about the Ancients and what has been explained by the characters in Atlantis there is no contradictory evidence to Becketts theory and there is nothing to suggest that the Ancients intentionally created the Wraith or the was any malicious intent in their creation. We don't have true conclusive evidence either way, but we do have Becketts theory that it was accidental and lacking contradictory evidence there is no reason to assume the Ancients were evil. My point is there is little in the evidence either way, and Becketts theory (a much more informed person about the issue) explains the creation of the wraith. There is no evidence as of yet to contradict him. When such evidence comes along I will happily concede the point, but we can not just assume he is wrong with out any evidence because we want the Ancients to be evil.

You two are both somewhat wrong; it was explained in Threads by Anubis himself that the weapon was originally made to create life in the MW after the Plague hit, although obviously it could be used to as spg_1983 said, “break down all matter to its basic elements so that the life cycle can be restarted” Anubis said it was just used to create life he didn’t explain how. Also spg_1983, when you said that “the Ancients would have had to have other devices that they used on each planet to restart the life.” You forgot to say IMO, or my theory is, because this is certainly not fact. Early in the series Sam theorized that a lot of SG planets were suitable for life that was human form or close to human form so far this has been the case so IMO the Ancients probably wouldn’t have needed to “restart the diverse and specific ecologies of millions of planets” with a device on each planet in order to successfully recreate life, but then again you could be right about this. Also Ba’al Via Nerus learned how to activate all of the SG’s at once to use the machine IMO the Ancient could have done the same and spread life using the machine after the plague.

It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Now we have come across Ancient devices that can creat and modify life on a smaller scale. The Talchak device that Anubis used to bring his Kull warriors to life, and the genetic modification device we have encountered twice. So taking into acount the existance of Ancient devices that deal with the creation of life and simple common sense and logic in thinking about the Dakaran device and how it works, it is not my opinion, or a theory, but common sense. Im not saying it is a fact because it hasnt been explicitily stated and TPTB have decided many times to make up completely illogical and ridiculous answers to questions like this in the past and they could very well decide to clarify at some point that the Dakaran device does in fact create life as it destroys it, but that woul be the height of idiocy and will respond that if the decide to take such a course.

I have to somewhat agree with thenimf on this one because so far Daniel has speculated from the translations that he deciphered in Arthur’s Mantel that the “Blood Stone” more than likely doesn’t kill, but just neutralizes the Ascended beings. Kvasir stated in Camelot (not a direct quote) “that he collected enough data from Merlin’s phase shifting device to surmise that the Shan grail was an energy transfer device much like a ZPM except that the energy is channeled not from sub-space into ordinary space time, but into the dimension occupied by ascended beings. Kvasir then goes onto say that the energy is a form of interference like two standing waves cancelling each other out” so my guess is that it doesn’t hurt them it just stops them from using their powers in or interacting with our dimension. Kinda like those bugs from Sight Unseen (Season six) – there you see them, now you don’t

That is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.

Okay, we are only aware that one Ancient actually traveled in time, now whether or not this was Janus is still a mystery. It wasn’t mention anywhere to my knowledge that Janus was the one that actually took the plunge back and forth in time in Before I Sleep or It’s Good to be King. It’s only been said that he invented the time travel machine and/or the design that was used in both episodes. Now it would be a fair assumption that this was Janus that was the Ancient who went forward in time in It’s Good to be King, but so far there has not been any absolute solid proof to back it up. The other Ancients (Before I Sleep) were pissed off because he created the time machine in the first place, which enabled Weir to travel back in time and hence, possibly effecting the set history as they knew it. This is the reason they didn't just go back in time and stop the Goa'uld, and Replicators, etc. because it could have just turned into a worse situation for the MW galaxy and the universe as a whole. Also in Camelot Daniel and Sam was talking about the possibility that Merlin may have had access to time travel technology himself, which may come into play in Season 10 ("Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" (working title)).

Ok you are right we don't know it was Janus that used the time machin in "Its Good to Be King" however Janus was an Atlantian and built his original device in Atlantis which Weir used to go back in time. The Atlantian council knew nothing about it so they knew nothing about the future, Janus built it in secret. The deice in "Its Good to Be King" was the same as the one Weir used, so it is likely either janus built it, or someone else did on his designs, but it had to have been after he returned to MW. So at least up until that point the Ancients had no idea what the future held, and were opposed to the idea of knowing and changing it.

[Bragi]

I'm sorry Miss Bragi, I'll structure arguments in future that account for your intellect. Go **** yourself.

Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.

[ZPM_Plant]

I might go as far to say that the Dakara device created the Gou'ld. Or the Ancients created the Gou'ld by accident while trying to solve the plague.

They do have the healing properties of the MW Ancients.

Consequences matter. Evil? No. In some cases irresponsible. Maybe.

[spg_1983]

Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.

Yeah I forgot to respond to that myself, it was really bad form.

[the fifth man]

Yeah I forgot to respond to that myself, it was really bad form.

Indeed!

[JUNIOR]

It was never explained that the device its self, and it is a "device" not a "weapon", had any specific purpose other than as a reset button. The devoce was part of the PROCCESS of recreating life in the galaxy, but the explanations that were given that suggest the device itself recreated life were hurried assumptions. I don't need to say "in my opinion" or "my theory" because it is neither. Im also not saying it is a fact because it has never been expressly said. But it is plain common sense. Carter explained that the device worked by broadcasting an energy wave that disabled the molecular bonds of matter. It was in this way they were able to focus the device to emit the specific energy type to destroy the replicators. The wave itself is just that, a undirected, broad spectrum energy wave that destroys matter. The device works galactically by dialing all stargates at once and hitting all planets at once. That means that the energy wave passes through the gate to all the planets connected in the exact same manner everywhere. The wave is not controlled after being released. So if the wave did have some magic way of hanging around after spreading across the individual planets and bringing the disassembled elements that are then left back together to start the rudimentary proccesses to lead to greter evolution on each planet, then each planet would be exactly the same. The exact same species of trees, animals, plants, and aliens. however that is not the case. yes the planets are quite similar, although this was explained by teal'c that the Goa'uld terraformed most stargate planets to their preferences, not the Ancients. But there are still many many differences and different races we have encountered.

Good point, although IMO it’s still just an opinion/theory because a person can just as easily say that the weapon brings life spawning materials together in order to create life with the correct calibration because it has not been explained how the weapon actually works (in regards to creating life) and its SciFi doesn’t have to follow complete logic.

That is exactly like I was saying, the device does not kill them, it neutralizes them, like Oma did with Anubis. That is what I am saying, not thenimf.

My fault you were total right on this point.

[JanusAncient]

So did the Crusaders and their Jihad minded counterparts, so did Hitler, European Roman, and Arabic enslavers, George W. etc. What you believe about yourself is meaningless in the face of the judgment of others, in this case us. And since they're trying to kill us for not accepting their brand of mental enslavement, I'm not inclined to give them the respect of having good intentions on their side.

This is your failing, just because the Ori are willing to kill, doesn't make them wrong by any means, it could just simply mean that they, contrary to us, actually see the Ancients bigger picture, and are willing to do whatever it takes to prevent them from accomplishing it.

All true but we're going to believe in that which works for our benefit. So far we've used Ancient technology to:

Travel to other worlds to gain technology to defeat the goa'uld
Defend our planet against Anubis
The knowledge they left behind helped us make allies of the Asgard, save Sam & Team from death by Solar radiation among other things.
Defeat the replicators and help the Asgard
Hold back the Wraith from Atlantis

and more I can't recall right now

So what, they had incredible technology, and vast knowledge, thus they are benevolent, come on, you yourself have to find fault with this statement.

The Ancient score card:

One ancient has saved our ass from the Wraith at least once. Chaya.

Chaya saved that one Atlantis team, only because she could, if it had been on any other planet, nothing! And, the fact that her people were also in danger, had to factor in, because once the Wraith finished with them, they would have alerted the other Wraith to the planets populace.

One ancient has ascended a friend and important person in the battles we've faced (Daniel), thus saving him from death, twice. Oma

The same ancient ascended an entire population rather than let them die

Wrong, Daniel didn't ascend the second time, now she did save him, but he was given the choice between ascension and death, he chose an alternate course, to return and continue the fight. Oma, helped the people of Abydos, only because Anubis was her mistake, no other reason, don't believe that it was just out of the kindness of her heart.

One more ancient helped us formulate a cure for a deadly disease thus sacrificing enlightenment and eternal life. Orlin

The same ancient, mistakenly helped a world fight against an enemy.

Agreed! But, speculation still exist, on whether he will, or won't be able to return to his state as an ascended being. The rest of the Ancients killed off the entire race, when they could have just destroyed the weapon, erased some memories, found another way, as Daniel is always saying, that was their solution.

One Ancient came back to build a weapon to help fight a battle we are about to face. Merlin

More precisely to help prevent from gaining the necessary power, to destroy his race, don't think it was to save the people of the Milky Way, the Ancients were more than ready to let Anubis destroy everything, don't go tricking yourself.

Two? ascended beings, Oma & Shifu, helped us understand that searching fir Goa'uld knowledge was a mistake we could avoid.

Yes, searching for knowledge at all cost, is the downward course, no problem with Oma, great lady, and Shifu a fantastic kid, but this does not speak to the actions of the other Ancients.

One, before he ascended, wrote a prophecy (It's good to be King) that helped us prepare for the goa'uld.

No, this Ancient did exactly what he/she was supposed, after travelling forward in time, and realizing the part he/she/they played in this planets history, that's it.

One, before he ascended, made sure we'd be able to visit and make use of Atlantis without dying a horrible death by drowning. Janus

No again, Janus wanted to see if his time travel invention worked, and if Atlantis would survive, it had nothing to do with Dr. Weir, and the Atlantis expedition, that's why it was programmed to travel back in time, to when he was still in the city.

The Ori Score Card:

They were annoying enough to compel the ancients to leave for a galaxy far far away.

You know what's wrong with this statement, I think you were just tired.

Upon discovering we exist, their followers immediately burned Vala to death

The Ori killed Harrid and Sallis for heresey

The Ori destroyed at least one, possibly two occupied planets to create their Supergate

So, Oma killed a whole troop of Jaffa. Again so, Merlin's black killed at least on person we know of, who knows how many more, to cause such fear in that village.

Like I said, we know the Ancients destroyed at least one race of people, do you really think, if they were willing to do this as ascended beings, they didn't as humans.

The Ori impregnated Vala against her will

The Ori have built an army to kill us all

The Ori have unleased plagues on several worlds: disease, flesh eating bugs, zombies, and all kill indiscriminately.

The Ori's only available options are worship or die and worship and die.

The scorecard is definitely on the side of the Ancients. It doesn't matter what part they've played in their issues with the Ori because it's the Ori who are out to kill us. If the Ancients have some elaborate plan to play us for their benefit, we have an awful lot of freedom doing so which places them well ahead of the Ori. We can't judge them on the theory that they "might" be evil especially when faced with someone inarguably so.

We deal with what we can see when we can see it. We can be paranoid about the ones not trying to kill us right now later.

Unless later is too late! So did Merlin, is his creation of Arthur. What was the four race alliance formed to do, to protect against hostile races, the Ori deem us hostile because of the Ancients. Yes, the Ori have killed many, and will continue to do so unless stopped, but there are other humans in other galaxies, you reap what you sow. Worship and die, sounds about right, but isn't it better to have the knowledge of the universe for a short amount of time, as a Prior, than dying ignorantly by the billions. Unless later is far too late!