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  1. #21
    Colonel SilverRider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by hidden_envy
    this was a good episode even if i did keep get confused...but it all made sence at the end!plus there was evil major hottie...
    I know....there's never enough of evil Davis....

  2. #22
    Second Lieutenant ApophisOfTheStargateRealm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    i really liked this one episode... even had me thinking there was no way that Jack could not be guilty...
    "A general is only as good as the people he commands."

  3. #23
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    I would like, if I may, to stand up for the slimy old fart (is there an element of contradiction there? Hmmm). I appreciate that there are people out there who would have been delighted if Kinsey had indeed snuffed it (hey, even his co-conspirators appear to want him dead!), but, personally, I'm rather glad he didn't.

    If there was ever someone who personified the adjective 'Smarmy', it's 'Ole Bob' Kinsey. He's the archetypal grasping, self-interested politician, and that in itself is enough to make me want him to stay - just think of the 'boo-hiss' value he has!

    On top of that, there has never been a time that his scheming hasn't been ultimately set back or even plain thwarted by something or someone at some stage - and that's such a satisfying thing to watch. But he's the proverbial Bad Penny - he just keeps on turning up. There's that old Jaffa saying: Cream rises to the top; so does scum. Okay, maybe it's not a Jaffa saying, but you get my point.

    Now, at long last, it looks like he's finally managed to trump Jack for the first time ever - and you can see he's savouring the moment. But - and this is a major but - he's a baddie. He's heading for the White House (at least that seems to be the likely outcome of all this) and that's one heck of a rise. Given that he is a baddie, he will be subject to the 'innate justice in TV Show' rule, and sooner or later he's going to take a fall - I can't believe for a moment that he won't. The higher he rises before the rule kicks in and whups his butt, the more enjoyable and satisfyingly messy his fall will be. Who would want to miss that?

    Now that's schadenfreude!

  4. #24
    Captain Beatrice Otter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka's_Mum
    I would like, if I may, to stand up for the slimy old fart (is there an element of contradiction there? Hmmm). I appreciate that there are people out there who would have been delighted if Kinsey had indeed snuffed it (hey, even his co-conspirators appear to want him dead!), but, personally, I'm rather glad he didn't.

    If there was ever someone who personified the adjective 'Smarmy', it's 'Ole Bob' Kinsey. He's the archetypal grasping, self-interested politician, and that in itself is enough to make me want him to stay - just think of the 'boo-hiss' value he has!

    On top of that, there has never been a time that his scheming hasn't been ultimately set back or even plain thwarted by something or someone at some stage - and that's such a satisfying thing to watch. But he's the proverbial Bad Penny - he just keeps on turning up. There's that old Jaffa saying: Cream rises to the top; so does scum. Okay, maybe it's not a Jaffa saying, but you get my point.

    Now, at long last, it looks like he's finally managed to trump Jack for the first time ever - and you can see he's savouring the moment. But - and this is a major but - he's a baddie. He's heading for the White House (at least that seems to be the likely outcome of all this) and that's one heck of a rise. Given that he is a baddie, he will be subject to the 'innate justice in TV Show' rule, and sooner or later he's going to take a fall - I can't believe for a moment that he won't. The higher he rises before the rule kicks in and whups his butt, the more enjoyable and satisfyingly messy his fall will be. Who would want to miss that?

    Now that's schadenfreude!
    You haven't seen the end of season 7 yet, have you? I think you're gonna love it! (Can I say that without spoiler space?)

    Kinsey's a great character. Every show needs the Internal Adversary. True, there's the Rogue NID (which later becomes the Trust), but they're kinda faceless. Kinsey's a guy you just love to hate! (Simmons is dead, now, and Maybourne isn't really much of a bad guy any more--Kinsey's all that's left.)
    My LiveJournal.

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    An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
    -Michel de Saint-Pierre

    Now, there's this about cynicism. It's the universe's most supine moral position. Real comfortable. If nothing can be done, then you're not some kind of **** for not doing it, and you can lie there and stink to yourself in perfect peace.
    -Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Borders of Infinity"

  5. #25
    Colonel emily_reich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    hehe... well ok, allow me to admit something here

    the only reason i wish the NID guy had killed kinsey (and not as jack... only as major davis) is because then davis would have blamed for it, they wouldn't have caught the bad guy, and we could have gotten some juicy davis whump!! *iz hopeless *

  6. #26
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice
    You haven't seen the end of season 7 yet, have you? I think you're gonna love it! (Can I say that without spoiler space?)
    Actually, I have (and I've seen Season 8, too!) - and I certainly did love it! I'm just still trying to adjust to what I can post without spoiling and what I shouldn't. I wasn't sure how far I could go without hinting at things that those less fortunate than us haven't seen yet, and I wasn't sure if using spoiler tags in this case would just
    Spoiler:
    give away that there's more Kinsey to come - and he's going to get his comeuppance big time, particularly with that symbiote business in Season 8. Major Ouch!


    Kinsey's an unprincipled, spineless, conniving worm. Gawd bless 'im.

  7. #27
    Second Lieutenant QuiGonJohn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by marcus
    I laughed out loud when out of nowhere Teal'c brutally clothes-lined that scientist he and Jonas were pursuing and then his description of events to Gen Hammond back at the base.
    That was great!

    Another episode with minimal Jack actually being in the scenes, even though the story was centered around Jack.

    I was pretty sure Jack didn't do it. Though I thought maybe he did shoot and it was some kind of covert plan to look like Kinsey had been killed. Didn't think they were going to use the foothold device, nice how they did.
    Last edited by QuiGonJohn; July 1st, 2005 at 10:12 AM.

  8. #28
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    It was indeed a 'tea-slopper' moment. Jack? our Jack? assassinating someone? Besides, what kind of black-ops expert carries out an assassination without taking any measures to disguise his identity given the prevalence of CCTV these days? Jack O'Neill may not be the sharpest blade in the kitchen cupboard, but he's not stupid either.

    Unless, of course, someone's setting him up...*ding!* on comes the little lightbulb over the head. Aha!

    Reviving the Foothold Aliens' devices was a neat idea. None of us could possibly have countenanced the idea that Jack would have developed such an outright hatred of Kinsey that he'd go introduce the old git to the business end of a high-powered rifle, but how did they pull off the 'fake' Jack? Naturally, I'd completely forgotten about the devices - so it never occurred to me that they'd be the culprits. I liked that.

    I wonder what they would have done if they hadn't retrieved the device that had Jack's image on it. It wouldn't have been quite as convincing if it had been Daniel!

  9. #29
    First Lieutenant golfbooy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Encourged by another thread, here's my totally engrossing, can't-be-missed "analysis" of Smoke and Mirrors.

    To begin, a "neighbor" witnessed duplicate O'neill dumping the murder weapon in the lake right behind his own cabin. Right, sure. We've been told repeatedly throughout the show's history that Jack likes his cabin for its solitude, because its miles away from anyone or anywhere. Yet on this night, it just so happens a "neighbor" is watching the lake. This evidence his further predicated on the premise that Jack is dumb enough to dump the weapon on his own property. As if that's not asinine enough, we're supposed to believe that the FBI, President, military, etc., are so obtuse that they believe that the special ops trained colonel, leader of the planet's foremost secret team, is dumb enough to do such a thing. But OK, whatever. I was sure the story could only get better.

    Yet, for an unknown, and apparently too unimportant to let us in on reason, Carter goes by herself to DC to visit "an old acquaintance". Who is this mystery man from her past, who can help free Jack? Much to my surprise, it's that ne'er-do-well, all-around nice guy (not that we know any of this about him yet) Agent Malcom Barrett, NID. Wait, wait, wait, who the hell is this guy? We've never met him before. Oh, hang on, he's the NID loser who tied Sam and Daniel up in Wormhole X-treme for no apparent reason whatsoever. I'll bet he developed his crush on Carter right then and there. Anyway, I'm sure he's ready and willing to vindicate O'neill, especially after he let those crafty aliens escape in Wormhle X-treme. But OK, whatever, he's gonna help.

    And how's he going to aid Carter? Well, he can't say. You see, he's so important, so dangerous to the rogue NID that his office is bugged. Isn't that just the coolest. But, if she'll meet him in the park later, he'll tell her how he can help. OK, let's meet. And as it turns out, Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, being the only truly honest, only trustworthy agent in the entire organization, just so happens to be on a "super-secret", "I shouldn't even be telling you this" mission to take down the rogue elements at NID. At this point my face is permanently cringed, as he continues to expound upon his visits to the White House, his lone man mission against the cancer that continues to elude all other investigators. OK, you're on a super-secret mission from the President. Whatever. What's next.

    Well, Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, just so happens to know the exact black-market location where the murder weapon was purchased. Lucky him, maybe this guy is good. Of course, unscrupulous as he is, the dealer is more than happy to squeal in exchange for his continuing to look the other way. And, it just so happens that the soon-to-be outed murderer handled another weapon while he was there. Savvy. You know, cause he wasn't planning to do anything illegal that might give others cause to identify him. He just wanted to murder a famous politico or some such. Whatever, OK. I can't wait to see where this goes now.

    To my surprise, none of the above even comes close to being the ultimate contrivance in Smoke and Mirrors. That dubious distinction is saved for the B-plot. Enter Jonas and Teal'c. Apparently so confident in Major Carter's abilities (and buoyed by the fact that she's being aided by Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID), they remain in Colorado Springs to track down whoever stole the mimic devices. And this part of the story flows well, right over the cliff that is Jonas' steel trap of a memory. You're telling me that I'm supposed to believe that he remembers the face of an SF who just so happened to be stationed in the Gateroom when he first came to SGC. That's right, he's betraying his homeworld, carrying stolen naquadria, trying to vindicate himself and the savior of Kelowna, yet he remembers of the guy he walked past down the ramp. Wow. That IS impressive. Daniel could never have pulled that off. Not only that, but it just so happens that that SF was also duplicated by the Foothold aliens. AND, it just so happens that his was one of twelve devices we were able to salvage after the explosion in Foothold. OK, whatever.

    Skipping ahead for brevity's sake, oh, who am I kidding. There's nothing brief about this post. Maybe I should stop now. But I haven't even got to the point about the rogue agent/murderer who's just waiting to blow Carter and Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, to smitereens with his homemade bomb. Man, that'll look really cool. And Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, can dive off the porch and lie on Carter. You know, for drama. Oh, that's right, and cause he likes her. That IS cute. All he needs are dimples and he'll have her in his arms in no time.

    How's it all end you ask? Surely all of this mess has been leading to somewhere cool. But no, in an ironic twist that you could only see coming since Act I, where the scientist mentioned it, we reprogram the mimic devices with our own image. Lucky for us they had Carter on the project, as she's the only one who could make the devices sustain an image long enough. And Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, earns Carter's respect. Damn, that IS satisfying.

    All that ranting aside, I think AT and CJ are excellent in this episode. And, the scene between Kinsey and Jack in the end trumps anything else in the episode. Breaking him away from the rogue NID is clever. I'm sure he'll never need to be aligned with them again. Oh, damn, nevermind. Forget I said that. This is Stargate, and I suspend my disbelief quite a bit every week to enjoy it. For some reason I just can't stomach this episode.

  10. #30
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by golfbooy
    the scene between Kinsey and Jack in the end trumps anything else in the episode.
    Wasn't it wonderful? Kinsey was smugness personified. He's probably been gagging to pay Jack back for all those times he's been thwarted by the Air Force Colonel From Hell (at least, that is how I assume he addresses the picture of Jack that he's pasted to his dartboard at home, anyway! ).

    And he's so clearly savouring every single solitary millisecond of it, too!

  11. #31
    Second Lieutenant PugGate's Avatar
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    Zat Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    What I don't get is how someone is still alive after being shot with an armor piercing bullet.
    Armor piercing bullets generally go through body armor, especially bullet-proof vests. Right? Kinsey should be dead.
    And what the heck is with all these pineapples? They have a pineapple sitting outside in 'Frozen' too. Is this some writers idea of a crazy joke?
    I loved Teal'c's interrogation scene. One of the series best scenes!
    Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini => three of the world's worst dictators.

    Also failed artist, failed priest, and failed grade-school teacher.

    What we should learn: Don't trust artists, be wary of priests, and fear your teachers!

  12. #32
    Lwaxana Troi
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    Smile Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by golfbooy
    Encourged by another thread, here's my totally engrossing, can't-be-missed "analysis" of Smoke and Mirrors.

    To begin, a "neighbor" witnessed duplicate O'neill dumping the murder weapon in the lake right behind his own cabin. Right, sure. We've been told repeatedly throughout the show's history that Jack likes his cabin for its solitude, because its miles away from anyone or anywhere. Yet on this night, it just so happens a "neighbor" is watching the lake. This evidence his further predicated on the premise that Jack is dumb enough to dump the weapon on his own property. As if that's not asinine enough, we're supposed to believe that the FBI, President, military, etc., are so obtuse that they believe that the special ops trained colonel, leader of the planet's foremost secret team, is dumb enough to do such a thing. But OK, whatever. I was sure the story could only get better.

    Yet, for an unknown, and apparently too unimportant to let us in on reason, Carter goes by herself to DC to visit "an old acquaintance". Who is this mystery man from her past, who can help free Jack? Much to my surprise, it's that ne'er-do-well, all-around nice guy (not that we know any of this about him yet) Agent Malcom Barrett, NID. Wait, wait, wait, who the hell is this guy? We've never met him before. Oh, hang on, he's the NID loser who tied Sam and Daniel up in Wormhole X-treme for no apparent reason whatsoever. I'll bet he developed his crush on Carter right then and there. Anyway, I'm sure he's ready and willing to vindicate O'neill, especially after he let those crafty aliens escape in Wormhle X-treme. But OK, whatever, he's gonna help.

    And how's he going to aid Carter? Well, he can't say. You see, he's so important, so dangerous to the rogue NID that his office is bugged. Isn't that just the coolest. But, if she'll meet him in the park later, he'll tell her how he can help. OK, let's meet. And as it turns out, Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, being the only truly honest, only trustworthy agent in the entire organization, just so happens to be on a "super-secret", "I shouldn't even be telling you this" mission to take down the rogue elements at NID. At this point my face is permanently cringed, as he continues to expound upon his visits to the White House, his lone man mission against the cancer that continues to elude all other investigators. OK, you're on a super-secret mission from the President. Whatever. What's next.

    Well, Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, just so happens to know the exact black-market location where the murder weapon was purchased. Lucky him, maybe this guy is good. Of course, unscrupulous as he is, the dealer is more than happy to squeal in exchange for his continuing to look the other way. And, it just so happens that the soon-to-be outed murderer handled another weapon while he was there. Savvy. You know, cause he wasn't planning to do anything illegal that might give others cause to identify him. He just wanted to murder a famous politico or some such. Whatever, OK. I can't wait to see where this goes now.

    To my surprise, none of the above even comes close to being the ultimate contrivance in Smoke and Mirrors. That dubious distinction is saved for the B-plot. Enter Jonas and Teal'c. Apparently so confident in Major Carter's abilities (and buoyed by the fact that she's being aided by Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID), they remain in Colorado Springs to track down whoever stole the mimic devices. And this part of the story flows well, right over the cliff that is Jonas' steel trap of a memory. You're telling me that I'm supposed to believe that he remembers the face of an SF who just so happened to be stationed in the Gateroom when he first came to SGC. That's right, he's betraying his homeworld, carrying stolen naquadria, trying to vindicate himself and the savior of Kelowna, yet he remembers of the guy he walked past down the ramp. Wow. That IS impressive. Daniel could never have pulled that off. Not only that, but it just so happens that that SF was also duplicated by the Foothold aliens. AND, it just so happens that his was one of twelve devices we were able to salvage after the explosion in Foothold. OK, whatever.

    Skipping ahead for brevity's sake, oh, who am I kidding. There's nothing brief about this post. Maybe I should stop now. But I haven't even got to the point about the rogue agent/murderer who's just waiting to blow Carter and Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, to smitereens with his homemade bomb. Man, that'll look really cool. And Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, can dive off the porch and lie on Carter. You know, for drama. Oh, that's right, and cause he likes her. That IS cute. All he needs are dimples and he'll have her in his arms in no time.

    How's it all end you ask? Surely all of this mess has been leading to somewhere cool. But no, in an ironic twist that you could only see coming since Act I, where the scientist mentioned it, we reprogram the mimic devices with our own image. Lucky for us they had Carter on the project, as she's the only one who could make the devices sustain an image long enough. And Agent Malcolm Barrett, NID, earns Carter's respect. Damn, that IS satisfying.

    All that ranting aside, I think AT and CJ are excellent in this episode. And, the scene between Kinsey and Jack in the end trumps anything else in the episode. Breaking him away from the rogue NID is clever. I'm sure he'll never need to be aligned with them again. Oh, damn, nevermind. Forget I said that. This is Stargate, and I suspend my disbelief quite a bit every week to enjoy it. For some reason I just can't stomach this episode.
    [color=blue] Sure you didn't miss anything? Nothing else to add? And are you sure we got the point?

    Very well thought out post, well written too. Nice to see humor and sarcasm, along with the ability to write and spell, is is still alive and well on the Forum.

  13. #33
    Captain Beatrice Otter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by PugGate
    What I don't get is how someone is still alive after being shot with an armor piercing bullet.
    Armor piercing bullets generally go through body armor, especially bullet-proof vests. Right? Kinsey should be dead.
    And what the heck is with all these pineapples? They have a pineapple sitting outside in 'Frozen' too. Is this some writers idea of a crazy joke?
    I loved Teal'c's interrogation scene. One of the series best scenes!
    Yes, but we know the shot entered his body--if it had been stopped by some kind of body armor, he wouldn't have been in a coma in the hospital, y'know? Some bruises, maybe a cracked rib, that's it. Just being shot doesn't necessarily mean instant death. Not if there's a good hospital/emergency room nearby.
    My LiveJournal.

    If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere.
    -Frank A. Clark

    An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
    -Michel de Saint-Pierre

    Now, there's this about cynicism. It's the universe's most supine moral position. Real comfortable. If nothing can be done, then you're not some kind of **** for not doing it, and you can lie there and stink to yourself in perfect peace.
    -Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Borders of Infinity"

  14. #34
    Colonel SilverRider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by Atteria
    [color=blue] Sure you didn't miss anything? Nothing else to add? And are you sure we got the point?

    Very well thought out post, well written too. Nice to see humor and sarcasm, along with the ability to write and spell, is is still alive and well on the Forum.


    I think he/she forgot about using Davis

  15. #35
    Second Lieutenant zats's Avatar
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    Zat Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Smoke And Mirrors: incredibly marginal yet still somehow manages to inhabit a few bytes of precious space in my mind.

    Okay, okay. So it wasn't that bad. A few small bits were funny. A few small bits were weird but fine. And I like the title. It fits very well.

    But none of the above can salvage a plot so full of holes that it might as well be knit lace.

    I'm not going to go into a full treatise of all this ep's shortcomings (surprised? Yeah, me too). Golfbooy does a more-than-adequete job of that here. Matter of fact, I'm going to break with the incessant negativity and talk about the halfway decent stuff:
    a. The opening. Hooked me like a trout. Of course, it let go again not long after, but still...it gave that 'suspension of disbelief' business my drama teacher's always rattling on about a good shot. So kudos. [No, I didn't think Jack had actually shot Kinsey, but it did make me want to see how they were going to pull this ep off. Really.]
    b. The bit where Teal'c reaches out and smacks the guy behind the house.
    c. "You can get up now." Okay, so it's another annoying side plot in which the extra of the week falls madly in love w/ Sam, but it's still slightly funny.
    d. The end. Good Lord, I love hating Kinsey.
    e. Good acting by RDA, AT, CN, & CJ. The usuals.

    So: lots of shiney stuff. Now if only there was a reasonable plot...

  16. #36
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by zats
    d. The end. Good Lord, I love hating Kinsey.
    Me too! All hail the smarmy git!

  17. #37
    Lieutenant Colonel
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    Chevron Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    The end of Smoke and Mirrors was the BEST thing about it......not exactly one of my favorites, although I could name worse.
    On fighting:
    Farrah: "A swordsman does not fear death, if he dies with honor."
    Dr. Who: "Then he's an idiot."

  18. #38
    First Lieutenant KorbenDirewolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    if you mean the bit after it goes "Executive Producer ect, ect, ect" I'd have to agree with you, Lida.
    The opinions of KorbenDirewolf do not necessrily represent the opinions of other male U.S. residents between the ages of 18 and 25.

    http://home.graffiti.net/kdiw/indiv.jpg

  19. #39
    Chief Master Sergeant gateroom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selmak
    That Kinsey just won't die.
    Poor kinsey finally met his end in full Alert.
    I wasn’t sorry to see him gone
    He was making to much trouble

  20. #40
    Staff Sergeant LuvsJonasQuinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke and Mirrors (614)

    I hate Kinsey (I think it's fitting what eventually happens to him on the show) but this was a good episode. I loved how the team was working the angles to get Jack cleared. I love that General Hammond trusts Jonas so much that he broke policy and told him about the foothold situation they'd had a few years ago. Sam working with Agent Barrett was good - I think he has a crush on her. I loved how well Jonas and Teal'c worked together looking for the missing scientist. The way Teal'c stopped the guy from running was funny.LOL Jonas cleared the fence really good and can definitely run fast. I liked how he came up with a solution to get the guy to tell the truth after Teal'c just sat in the room staring at the scientist until he cracked.LOL

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