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    Off-Topic Discussion of religion (major SG-1 S9 spoilers, not in spoiler tags!)

    Sorry that this post doesn't qualify as "chatter." This was the best place I could think to put it.

    This is the off-topic version (so that the other thread can stay on the topic of Stargate) of this thread, which begins with the following post:

    ---

    A Little Background on Me:
    I'm a Christian. At least that's how I define myself when it comes to belief. I was in a Fundamentalist group through most of college, and then I got involved in some online discussions (this was back in the days of telnet, btw), and realized that a good deal of Fundamentalism is unnaturally rigid and doesn't allow for the possibility of differing interpretations - and many of my interpretations ended up being different from that of most of my friends. Or anybody else's, for that matter.

    Plus, I always had serious problems (both theological and personal) with evangelism. I left the group for a number of reasons, but mostly because I found myself disagreeing with most of what was being said - and I'd discovered that a lot of people's faith simply can't stand up to a little doubt, even about the most insignificant details, because their faith doesn't allow for any flexibility. Not wanting to be responsible for making good people lose their faith, I left. That was about 10 years ago - currently, I'm in a serious off-again phase, but I still identify myself as basically Christian.

    My Comments:
    When Season 9 started and we were introduced to the Ori, the first thing I noticed was the obvious resemblance between Harod and Sallis's community and medieval Europe, and the similarities between "prostration" and worship in the Catholic church.

    Then, at the end of Avalon, Vala was burned to death. Which, of course, instantly called to mind witch burning and the Inquisition. And then she was healed - an obvious reference to resurrection and healing of the sick. If that wasn't enough, they even had Gregorian chants playing in the background.

    I loved Avalon. I loved the interaction between Daniel and Vala, the introduction to Mitchell, and the extremely touching scene at the end of Avalon where they show Daniel ignoring everything else and going to Vala, and then they show from above him holding her, and nothing moves except his hand stroking hers. It was beautiful.

    I even loved the Ori plotline at the end of Avalon. It seemed, at the time, that the show might have some good moral about the evils of evangelism in general.

    ...Then I watched Origin. The proverbial pink elephant, which was already quite large, got a bit bigger. We learned about the teachings of Origin, which bear remarkable resemblance to Fundamentalist teachings about Creation. Daniel questions some of the Priors' interpretations, which instantly brought to my mind the many, many debates that I've been in that were exactly like that discussion (almost word for word). I thought, "Ok, they're making a point about flexibility in belief and acknowledging that your interpretations might not be correct in everything, and not killing people over what you believe vs. what they believe. And it's a good point. Yay writers."

    But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.

    This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...

    Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.

    OTOH, there were a few notable differences between Origin and Biblical teachings that they called attention to. That was nice. I also liked the end of Origin where they kind of referenced God as a benevolent being looking out for us... it was good to have something to contrast God with the Ori, instead of just creating parallels between them.

    So, I thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking into this a little too much. I could just choose to not see the parallels that are leaping out at me. Or I could just consider this a work of frivolous fiction - even though I hate having to do that with a show that I started watching in the first place because I loved how it makes me really think about things."

    And then I thought, "Hey! Maybe the Ori are really meant to represent followers of a religion, and it's really the philosophy of Ascension that's the basis for the religion itself. Ascension is, after all, based on a plotline that's mostly grounded in philosophy, not theology. Maybe the Ori really do want to help people ascend, but they've lost sight of the fact that people can't be saved by something they're following for the wrong reasons. As well as the fact that you can't force somebody to believe something, and it's wrong to try, because it ends up doing more harm than good." (see above re: me having problems with evangelism).

    And I continued to think that. Right up until "The Fourth Horseman". Not minding, and in fact even appreciating, the ever-growing pink elephant.

    But then "The Fourth Horseman" happened. And, it turns out, the Ori have been lying to everybody!

    This is where I started to really have a problem. Because the allegorical nature of the story didn't stop there. Oh no. It just got worse.
    • The plotlines of "The Powers that Be" and "The Scourge" are taken directly from the book of Exodus. Minus the whole reason for the Plagues, of course ("Let my people go") - in the show, it's just punishment for not believing. However, most people are not going to think of "Let my people go," when they watch the show - they'll just notice the similarities between what's happening in the show and the Plagues. They won't stop to think about the differences.
    • The "doomsday" prophecies call the book of Revelations to mind.
    • And I trust I don't even need to mention the healing of the sick, the preachings from the Book of Origin, the motivations of the followers, and of course the whole immaculate conception thing.


    And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God, are lying. That they have no motivation that could be considered benevolent.

    This is just wrong, on so many levels.

    I can understand how somebody might resent some of the actions in the Bible on the grounds that they were harsh. What I cannot accept, understand, or condone is the implication that God is somehow deceitful. There is no justification for that, no evidence to support that idea in the least, and it's... slander. Against somebody who really, really, really does not deserve it.

    I loved the Ori plotline in the first part of Season 9. Since the Fourth Horseman, though, I've been watching the show in spite of the Ori plotline. And, in fact, I have to rationalize in order to justify continuing to watch to myself. Nobody should ever have to rationalize in order to justify enjoying a show. When they have to do that, there's something wrong with the show. Not only that, but I rationalize by trying not to think about the pink elephant. I like thinking about metaphorical meanings and morals in shows! I don't want to have to stop!

    As far as I can think, the show can do one of three things to rectify this problem in Season 10:
    1. They can stop copying plotlines from the Bible.


      Or...

    2. They can show that the Ori have copied Christianity deliberately, the way the Goa'uld impersonated existing Gods. I can't think how this could work with the logic of the show, though.


      Or...

    3. They could have Vala's baby bear no resemblance, in any way, shape, or form, to Jesus whatsoever. Not physically, not in terms of how he/she lives his/her life, nothing.
      • It could be a completely normal baby in every way. Meaning that there is absolutely nothing unusual about him/her except how he/she came to be. The baby could have been conceived for the sole purpose of having the Ori be able to say, "Look at us! We made a baby! Isn't it a miracle?"
      • It could be an abnormal baby, but in a way that is clearly bad and clearly completely unrelated to Jesus's life. That means no resurrection, no followers, and above all, NO TEACHING!

      Because, if it turns out that, on top of everything else, Vala's baby is some messianic figure who displays uncommon wisdom for his age, gathers disciples, teaches to all the wisdom of the Book of Origin, is martyred, and comes back to life, I WILL have to stop watching.


    Ok, I'm done. Replies welcome, although please reference the note at the top of this post when figuring out where to reply.

    Many thanks to blingaway for the sig pic.

    #2
    Regarding something that was said in the other thread:

    Originally posted by SylvreWolfe
    I just love how people have thought it was okay to do this with gods from other religions, but once it gets compared to the god of the christian bible it becomes evil and they shouldn't do it.

    It is like people are saying it is okay to bash other religions for 9 years, but how dare they touch the sacrosanct christianity. It is okay to trash on Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Nordic and other gods as being EVIL in order to bring in religion, but the moment it is compared to christianity it is all evil and shouldn't be done...It is either okay to draw the parallels with religion, or it isn't, period
    Damn, such hypocracy.
    As I mentioned in the other post, I didn't have a problem with the show attacking Christianity. I saw the parallels to Christianity as early as Avalon. But I didn't have a problem with it until The Fourth Horseman, and the revelation that the Ori were lying.

    It's one thing to attack a belief, or an attitude that "my way is better than your way, and if you don't believe the way I say you should believe, then you are evil and must be destroyed." That kind of thing (which happens in many people regardless of their beliefs, btw) should be considered wrong.

    It's good to point out that people can't be saved by a path that they didn't choose entirely of their own free will.

    It's even ok - good even - to draw parallels to Christianity and point out the many bad things that have been done in its name in the past.

    But it's quite another to portray religion as the result of an evil higher being's plot to dupe us into worshipping him. The operative word there being "evil." That's slander. And not against us, but against God, which is completely undeserved.

    Many thanks to blingaway for the sig pic.

    Comment


      #3
      I don't think they are implying that religion is about "duping" people into worshipping them. What TPTB is doing is sticking with what works. They had great success with false god storylines before, so thats what they continue with Origin. There is a distinct difference between what most religions consider as "God" and the false gods of stargate. The beings in SG are not all-powerful, or all-knowing, or all-good. It's not an attack on God, it's attack on us (by us I mean humans/mortal beings). It's an allusion to the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that mortal beings cannot handle this power. That we do whatever we can to attain power.

      Also the fact that the structure of the town and their clothing, lifestyle, etc, is similar to medieval Europe has to do with history, not religion. Remember, the religious feudal societies of medieval Europe were a result of the fall of Rome. Since the Ancients founded Rome's society (which is inferred because of the "builders of roads" stuff and the fact that they speak latin) it makes sense that their descendents would live in similar conditions. So I don't think that's alluding to Christianity, just the Dark ages in general. Rome would have fallen with or without Christianity.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by walterIsTheMan
        I don't think they are implying that religion is about "duping" people into worshipping them. What TPTB is doing is sticking with what works. They had great success with false god storylines before, so thats what they continue with Origin. There is a distinct difference between what most religions consider as "God" and the false gods of stargate. The beings in SG are not all-powerful, or all-knowing, or all-good. It's not an attack on God, it's attack on us (by us I mean humans/mortal beings). It's an allusion to the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that mortal beings cannot handle this power. That we do whatever we can to attain power.

        Also the fact that the structure of the town and their clothing, lifestyle, etc, is similar to medieval Europe has to do with history, not religion. Remember, the religious feudal societies of medieval Europe were a result of the fall of Rome. Since the Ancients founded Rome's society (which is inferred because of the "builders of roads" stuff and the fact that they speak latin) it makes sense that their descendents would live in similar conditions. So I don't think that's alluding to Christianity, just the Dark ages in general. Rome would have fallen with or without Christianity.
        These are really good points. Thank you. I'm going to quote this in the other thread - hope that's ok (it's actually Stargate-related), along with my further reply.

        Many thanks to blingaway for the sig pic.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Katerine
          These are really good points. Thank you. I'm going to quote this in the other thread - hope that's ok (it's actually Stargate-related), along with my further reply.
          That's fine, quote away. For the most part I don't worry about a fictional shows' political or religious implications because it takes some of the enjoyment out of it. If television had to be politically correct all the time, there'd be nothing to watch

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Katerine
            Regarding something that was said in the other thread:


            As I mentioned in the other post, I didn't have a problem with the show attacking Christianity. I saw the parallels to Christianity as early as Avalon. But I didn't have a problem with it until The Fourth Horseman, and the revelation that the Ori were lying.

            It's one thing to attack a belief, or an attitude that "my way is better than your way, and if you don't believe the way I say you should believe, then you are evil and must be destroyed." That kind of thing (which happens in many people regardless of their beliefs, btw) should be considered wrong.

            It's good to point out that people can't be saved by a path that they didn't choose entirely of their own free will.

            It's even ok - good even - to draw parallels to Christianity and point out the many bad things that have been done in its name in the past.

            But it's quite another to portray religion as the result of an evil higher being's plot to dupe us into worshipping him. The operative word there being "evil." That's slander. And not against us, but against God, which is completely undeserved.

            But that is exactly what they have been doing for 8 years prior to this season. All the badguys are the *false* gods of other religions. Almost every episode I have seen there has been a lecture about how the gods being worshipped were evil and phony. And it was about how they duped these followers into believing they were gods so they could enslave them. The same thing you are claiming you aren't liking about this *christian* parallel.

            And I know some people have a problem realizing this idea, but those *ancient* religions are still practiced today. Those gods are still worshipped today. Some of those ancient ways are still practiced today.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by SylvreWolfe
              But that is exactly what they have been doing for 8 years prior to this season. All the badguys are the *false* gods of other religions. Almost every episode I have seen there has been a lecture about how the gods being worshipped were evil and phony. And it was about how they duped these followers into believing they were gods so they could enslave them. The same thing you are claiming you aren't liking about this *christian* parallel.

              And I know some people have a problem realizing this idea, but those *ancient* religions are still practiced today. Those gods are still worshipped today. Some of those ancient ways are still practiced today.
              My reply is on topic, so I'm moving it back to the on topic thread, if that's ok.

              Many thanks to blingaway for the sig pic.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Katerine
                Sorry that this post doesn't qualify as "chatter." This was the best place I could think to put it.

                This is the off-topic version (so that the other thread can stay on the topic of Stargate) of this thread, which begins with the following post:

                ---

                A Little Background on Me:
                I'm a Christian. At least that's how I define myself when it comes to belief. I was in a Fundamentalist group through most of college, and then I got involved in some online discussions (this was back in the days of telnet, btw), and realized that a good deal of Fundamentalism is unnaturally rigid and doesn't allow for the possibility of differing interpretations - and many of my interpretations ended up being different from that of most of my friends. Or anybody else's, for that matter.

                Plus, I always had serious problems (both theological and personal) with evangelism. I left the group for a number of reasons, but mostly because I found myself disagreeing with most of what was being said - and I'd discovered that a lot of people's faith simply can't stand up to a little doubt, even about the most insignificant details, because their faith doesn't allow for any flexibility. Not wanting to be responsible for making good people lose their faith, I left. That was about 10 years ago - currently, I'm in a serious off-again phase, but I still identify myself as basically Christian.

                My Comments:
                When Season 9 started and we were introduced to the Ori, the first thing I noticed was the obvious resemblance between Harod and Sallis's community and medieval Europe, and the similarities between "prostration" and worship in the Catholic church.

                Then, at the end of Avalon, Vala was burned to death. Which, of course, instantly called to mind witch burning and the Inquisition. And then she was healed - an obvious reference to resurrection and healing of the sick. If that wasn't enough, they even had Gregorian chants playing in the background.

                I loved Avalon. I loved the interaction between Daniel and Vala, the introduction to Mitchell, and the extremely touching scene at the end of Avalon where they show Daniel ignoring everything else and going to Vala, and then they show from above him holding her, and nothing moves except his hand stroking hers. It was beautiful.

                I even loved the Ori plotline at the end of Avalon. It seemed, at the time, that the show might have some good moral about the evils of evangelism in general.

                ...Then I watched Origin. The proverbial pink elephant, which was already quite large, got a bit bigger. We learned about the teachings of Origin, which bear remarkable resemblance to Fundamentalist teachings about Creation. Daniel questions some of the Priors' interpretations, which instantly brought to my mind the many, many debates that I've been in that were exactly like that discussion (almost word for word). I thought, "Ok, they're making a point about flexibility in belief and acknowledging that your interpretations might not be correct in everything, and not killing people over what you believe vs. what they believe. And it's a good point. Yay writers."

                But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.

                This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...

                Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.

                OTOH, there were a few notable differences between Origin and Biblical teachings that they called attention to. That was nice. I also liked the end of Origin where they kind of referenced God as a benevolent being looking out for us... it was good to have something to contrast God with the Ori, instead of just creating parallels between them.

                So, I thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking into this a little too much. I could just choose to not see the parallels that are leaping out at me. Or I could just consider this a work of frivolous fiction - even though I hate having to do that with a show that I started watching in the first place because I loved how it makes me really think about things."

                And then I thought, "Hey! Maybe the Ori are really meant to represent followers of a religion, and it's really the philosophy of Ascension that's the basis for the religion itself. Ascension is, after all, based on a plotline that's mostly grounded in philosophy, not theology. Maybe the Ori really do want to help people ascend, but they've lost sight of the fact that people can't be saved by something they're following for the wrong reasons. As well as the fact that you can't force somebody to believe something, and it's wrong to try, because it ends up doing more harm than good." (see above re: me having problems with evangelism).

                And I continued to think that. Right up until "The Fourth Horseman". Not minding, and in fact even appreciating, the ever-growing pink elephant.

                But then "The Fourth Horseman" happened. And, it turns out, the Ori have been lying to everybody!

                This is where I started to really have a problem. Because the allegorical nature of the story didn't stop there. Oh no. It just got worse.
                • The plotlines of "The Powers that Be" and "The Scourge" are taken directly from the book of Exodus. Minus the whole reason for the Plagues, of course ("Let my people go") - in the show, it's just punishment for not believing. However, most people are not going to think of "Let my people go," when they watch the show - they'll just notice the similarities between what's happening in the show and the Plagues. They won't stop to think about the differences.
                • The "doomsday" prophecies call the book of Revelations to mind.
                • And I trust I don't even need to mention the healing of the sick, the preachings from the Book of Origin, the motivations of the followers, and of course the whole immaculate conception thing.


                And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God, are lying. That they have no motivation that could be considered benevolent.

                This is just wrong, on so many levels.

                I can understand how somebody might resent some of the actions in the Bible on the grounds that they were harsh. What I cannot accept, understand, or condone is the implication that God is somehow deceitful. There is no justification for that, no evidence to support that idea in the least, and it's... slander. Against somebody who really, really, really does not deserve it.

                I loved the Ori plotline in the first part of Season 9. Since the Fourth Horseman, though, I've been watching the show in spite of the Ori plotline. And, in fact, I have to rationalize in order to justify continuing to watch to myself. Nobody should ever have to rationalize in order to justify enjoying a show. When they have to do that, there's something wrong with the show. Not only that, but I rationalize by trying not to think about the pink elephant. I like thinking about metaphorical meanings and morals in shows! I don't want to have to stop!

                As far as I can think, the show can do one of three things to rectify this problem in Season 10:
                1. They can stop copying plotlines from the Bible.


                  Or...

                2. They can show that the Ori have copied Christianity deliberately, the way the Goa'uld impersonated existing Gods. I can't think how this could work with the logic of the show, though.


                  Or...

                3. They could have Vala's baby bear no resemblance, in any way, shape, or form, to Jesus whatsoever. Not physically, not in terms of how he/she lives his/her life, nothing.
                  • It could be a completely normal baby in every way. Meaning that there is absolutely nothing unusual about him/her except how he/she came to be. The baby could have been conceived for the sole purpose of having the Ori be able to say, "Look at us! We made a baby! Isn't it a miracle?"
                  • It could be an abnormal baby, but in a way that is clearly bad and clearly completely unrelated to Jesus's life. That means no resurrection, no followers, and above all, NO TEACHING!

                  Because, if it turns out that, on top of everything else, Vala's baby is some messianic figure who displays uncommon wisdom for his age, gathers disciples, teaches to all the wisdom of the Book of Origin, is martyred, and comes back to life, I WILL have to stop watching.


                Ok, I'm done. Replies welcome, although please reference the note at the top of this post when figuring out where to reply.

                I disagree.

                I see the Ori more as an inversion of what God is... aka the Devil.

                You mentioned Revelation... yet you didn't notice that Adria (Vala's child) is a combination of the Anti-Christ concept as well as the girl named "Hope" from Xena:Warrior Princess who is also an anti-christ allusion as she is the daughter of Dahak (the god of evil).

                In the Hercules mythos... there's God and then there's Dahak. One is Light and Goodness and the other is Dark and Evil. IMO, they took the religion of Dualism called Zoroasterism and replaced the 2 principal deities each representing Good -vs- Evil named: Ahura Mazda (good) -vs- Angra Mainu (evil) and replaced them with God/Yahweh/Allah and Dahak.

                This is why I keep insisting to people that the sources that inspired the Ori and the Ancients come from more than just 1 source. And that they need to learn about OTHER RELIGIONS than just seeing there own.

                What do you want to see in StarGate to convince you that its not just based on Christendom? That the Ori followers strap-on a Naquadah enhanced bomb, run into a crowd of innocent people and detonate themselves?

                We already have the Priors bursting into flames which is reminiscent of who BUDDHIST MONKS in Vietnam set themselves on fire, as they protested the PERSECUTION of Vietnamese Buddhists by Vietnamese Christians.

                Oh and I didn't like your comparison between Origin's prostration to Catholic woship, because as a Roman Catholic we kneel and that's it. The way those guys prayed, they almost had their faces on the ground. It resembled Islam's prostration more than that of any Christian (Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox) denomination.
                http://www.myspace.com/peoples_general
                http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/ga...PeoplesGeneral

                Comment


                  #9
                  Quoted with permission from Sushiman. I put it here because my reply probably won't reference Stargate itself, so I felt it was more appropriate here. I'm going to put my reply within the quotes, but mine will be in bold. My response follows the first paragraph.

                  Unfortunately, it does to the "modern" religious believers. People are unable to see beyong their own time, because they believe what is NOW is ALL there is. They do not realize that people have been worshipping gods and goddesses in differant forms for thousands and thousands of years .... And each generation has probably thought "My religion is the true religion, and there will be none after it" - and yet religions come and go ... Egyptian gods were around (in some form) for nearly 4000 years, Christianity has only been around 2000 years, and God as the "one god" has probably been around 2500 years, Islam for 1400 years, and this is just the most recent part of our recorded history. We certainly know of religious artifacts (or what appear to be) dating back many thousands of years before that time. The mayan gods were worshipped for about 700 years, and there are civilizations that predate them by thousands of years too .... Many religions that people think no longer exist, there are probably some people out there worshipping them still. You do know that Egyptian gods are still worshipped or prayed to in Egypt right? Same for some of the Mayan gods ....

                  And to the starter of this thread (sorry didnt catch the name) - many of the supposed jabs at christianity are not so, but are based upon your perception of it (your fundamentalist views are still apparent). I have a muslim friend who watches the show who had a similar reaction to you, and honestly i understood his response more than yours (although you both need to lay off the paranoia crack pipe). You should pick up a copy of the Koran and read it and then let's chat some more about the parallels. However, after going through all of it with him, he took a differant view of it anyway ...

                  Some main points that may or may not have been adressed

                  1a) It's a TV show, writers will always draw on their life experiences and their fantasies to create it. So therefore if it seems similar to something in life, that really shouldnt surprise you to any extent. (see point 4)

                  1b) A TV show can and will insult you. It's quite possibly trying to do so. If you dont like it then dont watch it.

                  I'm not touching this particular variant on the "If you don't like don't watch" comments. I don't want to derail the thread with that old argument.

                  If a tv show is trying to insult you, why is it a problem when people, I don't know, actually say they feel insulted? I would think that would be a good thing. Unless the tv show is only trying to insult people who don't mention they feel insulted. They're trying to insult the silent ones? This also goes to point 2 of your post. The movies want you to feel disgusted or upset, but apparently, it's a bad thing if you saythat's how you feel? How does that work?


                  1c) People have opinions on the board, and if you are insulted by that, oh well. Just because we all watch/like stargate doesnt mean we will all like each other. If someone says "this thread is stupid" that's an opinion (no sh*t right?) and it 's a direct insult to a thread you created... and you feel offended? Then you shouldnt have posted anything in the first place. If you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen .... The rest of us can make up our minds whether or not the thread IS indeed stupid and hopefully we can back that up with good evidence.

                  I was the one who objected to the stupid comment. Not Katerine (the originator of this thread), just so you know. To me, that went directly against the respect your fellow posters rule. Some people feel saying a thread is stupid isn't disrespectful. I do, and that's why I said it. And, I also feel that it's possible to be respectful without having to like someone. So, this isn't some lets all be friends and like each other. It's lets be mature and speak respectfully on the forum. And, I guess this again falls under the "if you feel insulted you better keep it to yourself" reasoning.


                  2) If you go to a movie and everything in the movie makes you happy, that is probably what the writers were trying to do, and therefore have done their job right. If everyone in the movie gets raped and murdered and you walk out feeling sickened and disgusted - the writers have probably done their job right. Not everything in life is designed to make you feel "warm and fuzzy"

                  3) If your (everybody here) religion can not take an attack by a tv show or or movie or someone else ... then why are you in that religion? By contrast, most religious leaders WELCOME questions about the validity of their religion (an attack if you want), because it gives them a chance to teach something.

                  Okay, you're mistaking something. My feeling insulted has nothing to do with what the religion can take. I'm not insulted because I think my religion can't take it. Believe me it can. I don't think that because I feel Stargate is attacking God and religion (in another post where I expressed my feelings on the subject, I said religion in general) that means that God will suddenly tumble from the sky and there will be a mass exodus (pardon the pun) from Christianity. This has nothing to do with whether or not the religion can take it. It has to do with me. A human being with feelings and emotions. And, I'm afraid that what religious leaders welcome really doesn't have a bearing on how I feel about something. And, the question why I'm in that religion? Well, lets use an anology. If I were married, and I felt someone was slandering my husband, and I got upset (which, I would think that any spouse naturally would) would you question why I was married to him? Would you assume that my husband couldn't take it, because I got offended? What's the difference when it comes to God or religion?

                  4) The reason these themes seem so familiar to everyone here (christian, muslim, buddhist, etc) is that we are all HUMANS. People seem to forget that because they are christian or muslim or white or black that nobody else CAN POSSIBLY feel the same as they do. Or that their life experience is SO differant than other people. (this is like how people on profile sites always say "im so differant than other people" - no no .. you're not. and dressing up like a goth person still doesnt make you differant. and if everybody is differant, doesnt that all make you same anyway?)


                  However, humans have all shared the same experiences in life, regardless of what time period you have lived in. You experience loss, pain, despair, ... but you also experience gain, pleasure, hope, love ... There are feelings that ALL humanity shares.

                  Um, I'm pretty sure that no one has ever said that they felt that no one else can feel like they do. I haven't. Just because people say that they feel offended by what they perceive to be an attack on God or Christianity does not mean that they don't think people of a different faith can't also feel that way. I certainly wouldn't tell any Muslim or Buddist or Hindu that they can't also feel insulted because they don't believe as I do. But, since I'm not any of these, I can't presume to say that it's insulting to Muslims, Buddists, or Hindus. I can't even say it's insulting to Christians as a whole. I've read this thread and I know it's not insulting to some. All I can do is say how I feel. I can only speak for myself.

                  If a prior brings a plague and you think "wow they ripped the bible, koran, whatever" then it only MAKES the point more valid - that humans react the same to certain situations. Plagues and disease will always have a negative reaction.... just like most people will see a little baby and think "how cute" (if we thought babies were ugly, humanity would not survive very long.)

                  Well, I personally think babies are nasty little buggers. Unpopular opinion (seeing how many of them there are), I know.

                  If a prior says "kill all the unbelievers", well that's pretty much been a theme in most major religions throughout the world at some point or another, ie crusades, shia/sunni fighting, hindi castes, catholics/protestant fighting etc. People kill who they dont agree with (which probably dates back to pre-caveman times and is a biological protection mechanism).

                  If a prior/Ori impregnantes Vala and you think "wow they ripped off the Jesus story" you havent read your world history. There are numerous instances of pre-christian "births without a father" stories. If an Ori can build a supergate, im going to go out on a limb here and say they've probably mastered in-vitro fertilization and quite possibly genetic manipulation (have you seen what happens to a human when they turn into a prior?). Give me a needle, some sperm, and some sleeping pills and i can make you wake up pregnant too - without ever having done "the deed". So if a big flaming head impregnated her ... why does it have to be a Jesus parallel?

                  Why doesn't it have to be a Jesus parallel? Jesus is a part of the world history too, so isn't it just as likely that it is a parallel as it is for any other story of a birth without an earthly father? Unless it's a parallel for every other story except Jesus? And, I think there's a wee bit of a difference between the Ori impregnating Vala and a medical procedure. Although, I'd ask to see your medical license before letting you make me wake up pregnant. That is, if I actually liked babies.

                  For those that feel stargate is attacking your religion or is taking jabs at it ... it isnt. and you need to have a stronger faith if you think so. and if you think its drawing parallels - reread all of point 4, and keep rereading it until you get the point. All people should strive to step out of their own shell and learn something new.

                  In your opinion it isn't. And, I honestly don't understand the argument that if you feel someone is attacking something that means you don't have faith in it. Again, how do those two relate? So, you only perceive attacks on things you don't have a strong faith in? In that case, I think Stargate is attacking the Easter Bunny, Mr. Magoo, and Elmer Fudd. I don't have any faith in them, so I should see a huge attack on them, right?

                  And, I get your point. But, if getting your point means not forming my own opinions, well, than it would be a waste of my time to reread your point, because that ain't nevah gonna happen. And, I've said that I feel that this storyline is an attack on religion in general, something I never felt with the Goa'uld. But, of course I'm going to have stronger feelings in regards to God and Christianity. Just like I would feel more upset if someone insulted my mother than I would if someone insulted some stranger in Timbuktu. On an objective level, I would say that isn't nice, but I can't say I'd feel as strongly about someone I wasn't close to. But, to go back to my earlier point, just because I say that I perceive an attack on my God and my religion does not mean I'm saying that no one else who does not believe as I do can't also feel the same way. And, if they're trying to insult people, as you say, than wouldn't that mean that it's possible that they are drawing parallels? Unless you mean they're trying to insult something else? I mean, if someone was trying to insult my taste in clothes, I wouldn't expect their comments to be about my breath. They'd be about my clothes. So, I don't see how the show can be trying to insult viewers without drawing parallels or making direct comments on the very thing they're trying to insult them about.


                  I await the flames
                  Sushiman
                  I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                  Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                  Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                  Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                  http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                  Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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