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Thread: Frozen (604)

  1. #161
    Air Force Chief of Staff Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by donald85 View Post
    you don't like the episode? then just
    "let it go"

    get it? hehe
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
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  2. #162
    Airman Ascended Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    This is one of the episodes that brakes suspension of disbelief for me.
    Assuming there is same there is same fossils record of human evolution in the Stargate universe as the real world how can Janet Fraiser say that humans potentially did not evolve on this earth? And Jack saying that Darwin was wrong?
    I personally don't like that the Ancients are basically humans.
    In fact I have developed a totally non-canon headcanon that the Alterans are descended from time traveling humans from earth back in time some + 50 millions of years ago across the galaxies.
    Last edited by Ascended Jonas; January 4th, 2020 at 10:04 AM.

  3. #163
    Captain Xaeden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended Jonas View Post
    This is one of the episodes that brakes suspension of disbelief for me.
    Assuming there is same there is same fossils record of human evolution in the Stargate universe as the real world how can Janet Fraiser say that humans potentially did not evolve on this earth?
    All she said in the line you're referencing is that it provided evidence that humans "evolved long before we thought they did," not that humans didn't also evolve on earth.

    Later in the episode, Carter and Jonas have an exchange where they're speculating about how there could be a human who predated human evolution on earth, and it's treated as a given that humans evolved on earth:

    CARTER
    As far as we knew up until now, all human life in the galaxy was transplanted to other planets from Earth by the Goa'uld. Now, the odds of a totally alien life form evolving to look exactly like us are…are astronomical.

    JONAS
    Actually, if she's as old as we think she is, wouldn't it be us evolving to look like her?

    CARTER
    True.


    What they're trying to figure out is how humans could have evolved on earth and also evolved elsewhere. This is clarified by Fraiser herself even later in the episode:

    FRAISER
    Yes. We think this woman might predate human evolution on Earth by 50 million years.

    CARTER
    Yeah, but that would put her behind us on the evolutionary timeline, not way ahead.

    FRAISER
    Unless…

    CARTER
    Unless…our evolution isn't the first time it's happened. That's not big, Janet, that's huge!

    FRAISER
    Okay, look, it's just a theory and we certainly don't have any hard evidence, yet.

    CARTER
    Yeah, yeah, but if you're right! This woman could be part of the race that first invented the Gate.

    FRAISER
    One stage of their development, anyway.

    CARTER
    A living Ancient.

    FRAISER
    And we look just like her.

    CARTER
    That could mean that…that our evolution wasn't just some biological accident.


    Later episodes confirmed her theory that humans were the second evolution of this form and that humans evolved on earth because the Ancients caused it to.

    And Jack saying that Darwin was wrong?
    Jack said Darwin would be crushed. He was being flip; I wouldn't read too much into it.

    I personally don't like that the Ancients are basically humans.
    Stargate is usually good about creating believable reasons to use human actors in place of realistic aliens (as required by their budget), but I agree that this was a misstep. Somehow, the Ancients caused humans to evolve within an animal population that was alien to them and although humans are genetically similar to all other animal life on earth, they are also genetically identical to Ancients, minus a single gene. Also, to establish that the Ancient technology caused humans to evolve a second time on earth, this forced them to make the Ancients impossibly old. There's no way humans would look physically the same (while only evolving mentally) for 5-10 million years, let alone 50 million years.

    The writers seemed to later regret this, so in Stargate Universe, they referred to the Destiny in terms of "hundreds of thousands of years old" and, at one point, "a" million, but in doing so they forgot the reason why they made them so ancient (as it were), which enabled the Ancients to cause human evolution on earth. And even then, apes and monkeys diverged from a common ancestor 25-30 million years ago, so there's a long fossil record showing the progression to human that predates the activation of the Dakara device 5-10 million years ago.

    In fact I have developed a totally non-canon headcanon that the Alterans are descended from time traveling humans from earth back in time some + 50 millions of years ago across the galaxies.
    The Ancients still intervened to cause humans to evolve on earth. This has been confirmed by actual Ancients, so if the Ancients were future humans who traveled back in time, human evolution on earth still did not happen naturally.
    Last edited by Xaeden; January 13th, 2020 at 05:02 PM.

  4. #164
    Airman Ascended Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaeden View Post
    All she said in the line you're referencing is that it provided evidence that humans "evolved long before we thought they did," not that humans didn't also evolve on earth.

    Later in the episode, Carter and Jonas have an exchange where they're speculating about how there could be a human who predated human evolution on earth, and it's treated as a given that humans evolved on earth:

    CARTER
    As far as we knew up until now, all human life in the galaxy was transplanted to other planets from Earth by the Goa'uld. Now, the odds of a totally alien life form evolving to look exactly like us are…are astronomical.

    JONAS
    Actually, if she's as old as we think she is, wouldn't it be us evolving to look like her?

    CARTER
    True.


    What they're trying to figure out is how humans could have evolved on earth and also evolved elsewhere. This is clarified by Fraiser herself even later in the episode:

    FRAISER
    Yes. We think this woman might predate human evolution on Earth by 50 million years.

    CARTER
    Yeah, but that would put her behind us on the evolutionary timeline, not way ahead.

    FRAISER
    Unless…

    CARTER
    Unless…our evolution isn't the first time it's happened. That's not big, Janet, that's huge!

    FRAISER
    Okay, look, it's just a theory and we certainly don't have any hard evidence, yet.

    CARTER
    Yeah, yeah, but if you're right! This woman could be part of the race that first invented the Gate.

    FRAISER
    One stage of their development, anyway.

    CARTER
    A living Ancient.

    FRAISER
    And we look just like her.

    CARTER
    That could mean that…that our evolution wasn't just some biological accident.


    Later episodes confirmed her theory that humans were the second evolution of this form and that humans evolved on earth because the Ancients caused it to.
    Ah! I did not remember that part!

    Jack said Darwin would be crushed. He was being flip; I wouldn't read too much into it.
    True.

    Stargate is usually good about creating believable reasons to use human actors in place of realistic aliens (as required by their budget), but I agree that this was a misstep. Somehow, the Ancients caused humans to evolve within an animal population that was alien to them and although humans are genetically similar to all other animal life on earth, they are also genetically identical to Ancients, minus a single gene. Also, to establish that the Ancient technology caused humans to evolve a second time on earth, this forced them to make the Ancients impossibly old. There's no way humans would look physically the same (while only evolving mentally) for 5-10 million years, let alone 50 million years.

    The writers seemed to later regret this, so in Stargate Universe, they referred to the Destiny in terms of "hundreds of thousands of years old" and, at one point, "a" million, but in doing so they forgot the reason why they made them so ancient (as it were), which was enable the Ancients to cause human evolution on earth. And even then, apes and monkeys diverged from a common ancestor 25-30 million years ago, so there's a long fossil record showing the progression to human that predates the activation of the Dakara device 5-10 million years ago.
    Are you an evolved Ancient ? because you just did read my mind


    The Ancients still intervened to cause humans to evolve on earth. This has been confirmed by actual Ancients, so if the Ancients were future humans who traveled back in time, human evolution on earth still did not happen naturally.
    Or you could headcanon that the Dakara device did not reach Earth because of some weird Stargate bug or something.
    And the Ancients are mistaken about causing human evolution on Earth not the first time that they made a mistake.

    I'm starting to ponder if I should write a totally non-canon fanfiction about a deascended Ancient in modern times. Discovering evidence that the Ancients are somehow descended from modern humans an example is that he discovers same Neanderthals genes in modern human and the Ancients population.

  5. #165
    Captain Xaeden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended Jonas View Post
    Or you could headcanon that the Dakara device did not reach Earth because of some weird Stargate bug or something.
    And the Ancients are mistaken about causing human evolution on Earth not the first time that they made a mistake.
    Well, this comes from ascended Ancients who, while not all knowing, would, I assume, have the ability to determine the source of human evolution on earth. It's also quite possible that already ascended Ancients were observing those events.
    Last edited by Xaeden; January 5th, 2020 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #166
    Air Force Chief of Staff Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended Jonas View Post
    I'm starting to ponder if I should write a totally non-canon fanfiction about a deascended Ancient in modern times. Discovering evidence that the Ancients are somehow descended from modern humans an example is that he discovers same Neanderthals genes in modern human and the Ancients population.
    Should have started already...
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
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    First time watching Star Trek: The Adventures of Captain Kirk and his Trusted Sidekick, Mr. Spock

  7. #167
    Airman Ascended Jonas's Avatar
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    Red face Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    Should have started already...
    Thank you for the encouragement! If I write this fanfiction my non-canon headcanon is that the Alterans are descended from time traveling humans from earth back in time some + 50 millions of years ago across the galaxies.
    What do you think about that premise? that the de-ascended Ancient discovers some intriguing clues that the Ancients/Alterans are somehow descended from modern humans.

  8. #168
    Air Force Chief of Staff Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    It would be full circle... and also, better have an excellent timeline of that head-canon cause time is wibbly-wobbly.
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
    Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 9 of SG-1
    First time watching Star Trek: The Adventures of Captain Kirk and his Trusted Sidekick, Mr. Spock

  9. #169
    Airman Ascended Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frozen (604)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    It would be full circle... and also, better have an excellent timeline of that head-canon cause time is wibbly-wobbly.
    Currently I'm brainstorming that timeline and trying to answer some questions that rises from that timeline like how to get the original humans communicating in Latin it would be a nice twist of the Ancient language was Latin and later inspired Latin on earth.

    And how the Alterans manged to not know that they are descendent from humans from Earth considering they's extensive database and how they got to believe that they evolved on Celestis.

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