Why is there a Point of Origin?

[NoDot]

But then you wouldn't need corralitive updates as it could also figure out where the destinations are. Also the gate stores all other co-ordinance but you still have to dial them.

Storing all the coordinates would cost a lot of memory, and require the system to be updated everytime a new gate is put into opperation, something that is clearly untrue.

As far as the planetary drift work, check out episode 3x20 - Maternal Instinct. Carter pulls up two gate addresses, saying one is the version spit out by O'Neill's program (2x15 - The Fifth Race), while the other is from the cartoosh (sp?) on Abydos. IIRC, (and this shouldn't be shocking) the two addresses were different.

As for the correlative updates, I just looked at the transcript for Avenger 2.0, and this just gets more confusing. Carter states: "Well, sir, we think we may have an explanation. We know that the 'gate network has to undergo periodic correlative updates in order to compensate for stellar drift. Now, we've never witnessed it, but we believe that the 'gates dial each other automatically to transmit the new coordinates that apply to each address."

This completely supports any theory that the gate addresses are hard-wired, an idiotic idea and one which is illogical in every reguard. Excluding the memory issue, we still have the issue then of how Earth could connect to anywhere in the movie (The next correlative update wouldn't have registered it, and the DHDs keeping stuff like that around would be a BIG waste of memory. The Ancients weren't THAT stupid.) and why Earth didn't just use the Abydos DHD to get all the gate addresses.

Logically, I doubt the Goa'uld would be so stupid to overlook the possible advantage to their enemies with this method, as any System Lord could just keep a record of all updates and use the older ones for a comparison to find out if the enemy has a new planet.

It also removes the logic of why, in Exodus, the Tok'ra wanted to make a permanent base, as anyone with a DHD history would be able to pinpoint where their new planet is with the first time the gate would be used.

[immhotep]

question, what would happen if we used another PoO on earth, is the concept of needing a PoO limiting the gate network for us? i mena if there is no need for a point of origin then does thing mean that weve been using the PoO just because we though we needed it, cutting on another slew of address's form our possible list of worlds?

[Seastallion]

question, what would happen if we used another PoO on earth, is the concept of needing a PoO limiting the gate network for us? i mena if there is no need for a point of origin then does thing mean that weve been using the PoO just because we though we needed it, cutting on another slew of address's form our possible list of worlds?

*bangs head against wall...*

Did you read any of my post? PoO have NOTHING to do with a stargates actual position in space. Go back and read my other post for more detailed explanations.

Storing all the coordinates would cost a lot of memory, and require the system to be updated everytime a new gate is put into opperation, something that is clearly untrue.

As far as the planetary drift work, check out episode 3x20 - Maternal Instinct. Carter pulls up two gate addresses, saying one is the version spit out by O'Neill's program (2x15 - The Fifth Race), while the other is from the cartoosh (sp?) on Abydos. IIRC, (and this shouldn't be shocking) the two addresses were different.

As for the correlative updates, I just looked at the transcript for Avenger 2.0, and this just gets more confusing. Carter states: "Well, sir, we think we may have an explanation. We know that the 'gate network has to undergo periodic correlative updates in order to compensate for stellar drift. Now, we've never witnessed it, but we believe that the 'gates dial each other automatically to transmit the new coordinates that apply to each address."

This completely supports any theory that the gate addresses are hard-wired, an idiotic idea and one which is illogical in every reguard. Excluding the memory issue, we still have the issue then of how Earth could connect to anywhere in the movie (The next correlative update wouldn't have registered it, and the DHDs keeping stuff like that around would be a BIG waste of memory. The Ancients weren't THAT stupid.) and why Earth didn't just use the Abydos DHD to get all the gate addresses.

Logically, I doubt the Goa'uld would be so stupid to overlook the possible advantage to their enemies with this method, as any System Lord could just keep a record of all updates and use the older ones for a comparison to find out if the enemy has a new planet.

It also removes the logic of why, in Exodus, the Tok'ra wanted to make a permanent base, as anyone with a DHD history would be able to pinpoint where their new planet is with the first time the gate would be used.

Your right... the DHD does NOT store every stargate address in the galaxy. That is NOT its function. What it DOES do, besides allow you to dial the gate without manually spinning the inner ring, and attaching a power device to it... is update coordinate symbol values. This means the DHD has only 38 symbols that is has to worry about. The coorelative update itself only happens once in a very great while. Maybe only once every hundreds or thousands of years. When it does, it slightly alters the coordinate symbols value in relation to the actual coordinate each symbol implies which is constantly moving. Those 38 symbols are like the letters in the alphabet... you put them together to get different words, or in the stargates case, to get different stargate positions. The DHD doesn't need to store the gate addresses, just the individual coordinates that are used by all stargates.

As to the two different list of gates your talking about... It wasn't a list of the same planets with different stargate addresses. O'Neill list was a more complete list of stargate addresses that the Goa'uld hadn't discovered so was never placed on the Cartouche at Abydos. So while some of the addresses in O'Neill's list was the same as the Cartouche list, the many different ones were worlds the Goa'uld knew nothing about. This was how Daniel proved once and for all, that the Goa'uld did not build the gate system, but only used it.

So the stargate addresses are fixed (for a very long time, but not permanently), regardless of your point of origin... BECAUSE the point of reference is pan-galactic. NOT Earth centered, as was originally thought. (The movie used a different method. One that actually makes LESS sense for an interstellar race.) A stargate's address does eventually change because of extreme intra-galactic stellar drift, but that takes a period of time on the order of 100's of thousands of years to millions of years. However, any race smart enough to use the stargate would be able to recalculate the new address long before it actually changed.

[immhotep]

i was saying that it would affect the gate newtork, i was just saying that if we were alway dialing under the asumsion we need 6 + PoO and then we find out we dont, then weve been dialing ' wrong' all this time, and missing address's.
***i do apploogise if this has been repeated.***

[NoDot]

As to the two different list of gates your talking about... It wasn't a list of the same planets with different stargate addresses. O'Neill list was a more complete list of stargate addresses that the Goa'uld hadn't discovered so was never placed on the Cartouche at Abydos. So while some of the addresses in O'Neill's list was the same as the Cartouche list, the many different ones were worlds the Goa'uld knew nothing about. This was how Daniel proved once and for all, that the Goa'uld did not build the gate system, but only used it.

That was just an example of what the planetary drift program was supposed to do. O'Neill's program, among other things obviously, dramatically sped up those calculations.

So the stargate addresses are fixed (for a very long time, but not permanently), regardless of your point of origin... BECAUSE the point of reference is pan-galactic. NOT Earth centered, as was originally thought. (The movie used a different method. One that actually makes LESS sense for an interstellar race.) A stargate's address does eventually change because of extreme intra-galactic stellar drift, but that takes a period of time on the order of 100's of thousands of years to millions of years. However, any race smart enough to use the stargate would be able to recalculate the new address long before it actually changed.

Which begs the question, why don't the DHDs do that automatically? Why do they need to dial other gate addresses to do that?

[Gate Master]

I understand where your all coming from but while specifics about the PoO haven't really been discused in the show if the show's navagational co-ordinance are based on any kind of science fact then you would have to account for planetary drift with both the destination and PoO otherwise the science in the show would be a complete contradictory joke.
Also the fact that you can dial manually with out computors or DHD means the gate has to store the co-ordinance related to each symbol. Also in the ep Red sky the gate knew that they would pass through the sun even tho the SGC computors didn't. The DHD seems to be needed to update and program the gate but the gate has to have a redundent memory for situations where the DHD is lost or out of power.
The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.

[NoDot]

The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.

At that, I vote we leave this as "Undetermined at this Point" and wait for some clarification.

Otherwise, we have a huge debate which no one can win.

[Seastallion]

Which begs the question, why don't the DHDs do that automatically? Why do they need to dial other gate addresses to do that?

They do. However, your still thinking that they update entire addresses. They don't. They DO, however, update coordinate symbol values. The reason a DHD dials up the other stargates automatically is to ensure that all the stargate's are on the same page. If the stargate's coordinate symbols were off, it could result in a loss of network cohesion. Even the Earth Stargate recieves a coorelative update.

I may have flopped on this point, but it needs to be clarified just in case. The DHD's themselves are just a component of the Stargate. It is the Stargate itself that receive's a coorelative update although it is the DHD that does the automatic activations of all nearby stargates. A coorelative update process is like swinging a wide net to catch anything that you come across, but not aiming for any specifc thing. The ability to activate every stargate in the galaxy simultaneously is related to this particular gate function. The DHD's themselves do NOT even store the coordinate symbol values. It is the actual stargate ring itself that stores those values in relation to each coordinate symbol.

[Gate Master]

At that, I vote we leave this as "Undetermined at this Point" and wait for some clarification.

Otherwise, we have a huge debate which no one can win.

Your probably right although it may be a good question in the ask Joe thread, if he would commit to an anwser.
Admitardly tho while I obviously do take account of show points I am applying a logical scientific reasoning to the PoO question.

[Seastallion]

I understand where your all coming from but while specifics about the PoO haven't really been discused in the show if the show's navagational co-ordinance are based on any kind of science fact then you would have to account for planetary drift with both the destination and PoO otherwise the science in the show would be a complete contradictory joke.
Also the fact that you can dial manually with out computors or DHD means the gate has to store the co-ordinance related to each symbol. Also in the ep Red sky the gate knew that they would pass through the sun even tho the SGC computors didn't. The DHD seems to be needed to update and program the gate but the gate has to have a redundent memory for situations where the DHD is lost or out of power.
The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.

*repeated*...

I may have flopped on this point, but it needs to be clarified just in case. The DHD's themselves are just a component of the Stargate. It is the Stargate itself that receive's a coorelative update although it is the DHD that does the automatic activations of all nearby stargates. A coorelative update process is like swinging a wide net to catch anything that you come across, but not aiming for any specifc thing. The ability to activate every stargate in the galaxy simultaneously is related to this particular gate function. The DHD's themselves do NOT even store the coordinate symbol values. It is the actual stargate ring itself that stores those values in relation to each coordinate symbol.

[NoDot]

Even the Earth Stargate recieves a coorelative update.

I doubt that. As the said in Avenger 2.0, they've never witnessed such an event.

In fact, if I may go out on a limb here, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a correlative update, as it was Ba'al who caused the problem, not the virus triggering an update.

Admitardly tho while I obviously do take account of show points I am applying a logical scientific reasoning to the PoO question.

I'm not a scientist, so I'm stuck with the just as useful, if not more so, ability called: logical reasoning and sense.

[Seastallion]

I doubt that. As the said in Avenger 2.0, they've never witnessed such an event.

In fact, if I may go out on a limb here, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a correlative update, as it was Ba'al who caused the problem, not the virus triggering an update.

I don't. As I said, it is the stargate ring itself that recieves the update not the DHD. The DHD simply activates I wide net sweep to all other nearby stargates passing the update along. Very similiar in fact to the "Twilight Bark" on last nights eps. of Atlantis.

The reason the SGC had never witnessed a coorelative update until the Avenger incident is because it is unnecessary to have an update more than once every few thousand years. The SGC hasn't even been around for a full decade yet. Ba'al modified the virus program, but he didn't create the update process itself. The very fact that it worked, proves that the Stargate does indeed have a coorelative update. It is just that the updates are relatively rare.

Also, the coorelative updates are necessary for the simple reason that every star in the galaxy changes its position over an extended period of time. The updates correct for relatively moderate changes in star position in relation to the coordinate symbol values. However, after an extremely long period of time (again, between 100's of thousands of years to millions of years) the star moves such a great distance that the stargates address itself must be changed, because simply modifying the coordinate symbol values is no longer enough. As I said though, any civilization advanced enough to use the Stargates routinely should be able to calculate new gate addresses long before it becomes necessary. O'Neill did give the SGC a revolutionary formula for calculation those changes in a much shorter time than had been previously necessary, but the scientist of Earth already knew how to do it. It just took a longer time to figure. A few weeks, instead of a few hours.

[NoDot]

I don't. As I said, it is the stargate ring itself that recieves the update not the DHD. The DHD simply activates I wide net sweep to all other nearby stargates passing the update along. Very similiar in fact to the "Twilight Bark" on last nights eps. of Atlantis.

Well, if it's the gate which recieves the update, then how could the SGC still dial out?

[Seastallion]

Well, if it's the gate which recieves the update, then how could the SGC still dial out?

Simple. All the SGC dialing computer does, is spin the gate symbols to the central locking mechanism, in proper sequence. The gate itself already has the proper coordinate symbol values built into it. They don't need anything else. One thing the Earth Stargate can't do, is pass on (a very rare occurence) a coorelative update to other gates because it lacks a DHD. Unless the SGC dialing computer were programmed with that function later. Even if the Earth stargate doesn't pass on the update, it doesn't matter. There are enough gates and DHD's around the galaxy to compensate for a few stargates lacking DHD's in order to complete an update.

If the SGC had to dial the gate by hand, and only had a gas generator to power the gate, they would still be able to dial out and receive those very rare updates.

[NoDot]

The gate itself already has the proper coordinate symbol values built into it.

Then that defeats the purpose of a correlative update, which is to change those values.

If Earth's gate had recieved the same code as the other gates, then Earth would've been as cut off as the rest of the system. The fact otherwise proves that gates without DHDs are unaffected by those updates.