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  1. #261
    Colonel Flyboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
    Basically, yah. You dial the number and hit send.
    So why bother with the Big Red Button?


    "Five Rounds Rapid"




  2. #262
    First Lieutenant Cmdr. Setsuna F. Seyei's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guest750 View Post
    The six symbols are to locate the OTHER gate, not ours.
    they are also used to locate our gate when dialling in from another world. Duh

  3. #263
    First Lieutenant Cmdr. Setsuna F. Seyei's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
    So why bother with the Big Red Button?
    The big red button is the send button.

  4. #264
    Airman
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    The PoO is like the signature at the end of a letter.

  5. #265
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Okay, after reading the whole topic over the course of a few hours, I had to register.
    Now, I'll try to sum up the most logical (to me) points and ideas and add some of my own thoughts.
    First of all, I think I should separate Point of Origin the symbol, and the actual, spatial Point of Origin, because in this topic there was some confusion as to what was being discussed and I believe they have different meanings/functions.

    The PoO symbol:
    • The PoO symbol on the gate itself is unique to the gate and not the planet (I hope no arguments here);
    • This symbol is used in manual dialing, when using a DHD it is (most probably, the show is kinda sloppy here) encoded when hitting the BRB;
    • The symbol is helpful in recognizing the planet or culture associated with the gate (assuming the gate is not moved);
    • The symbol is a terminating signal letting the gate know that we finished dialing a 6/7/8 symbol address;
    • The symbol might be a "shortcut" transmitting the actual spatial location (PoO) of the gate;

    As a sidenote, symbols on the gate can't really be constellations, because those look different from different planets, and change over time. They must represent a galactic frame of reference. I agree with Seastallion on this.

    The actual spatial point of origin (here is where the fun starts):
    First, I want to correct one thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion View Post
    You would be correct IF the stargates used a single planetary frame of reference to target other gates. Point in fact, it does NOT. Every stargate in the galaxy uses the same frame of reference. That is the ONLY possible way (besides a pre-assigned combination lock system, which we already know from the show is NOT the case.) for all the addresses to work from any planet you are on.
    You mix up some concepts here. If the addressing was completely relative, with different sets of symbols on every gate, a network consisting of more than a few gates would be untenable. The movie had different sets of symbols for a lot of reasons, but I don't think it implied usage of relative addressing. But that's a topic for another discussion.
    When you deal with relative coordinates, this is when you don't really need a point of origin, because you are always at the (0,0,0), and simply go (for example) 5 units up, 3 units right, 9 units forward from your location.
    If you want to use a galactic reference frame (absolute coordinates), to plot a course you need a start and an end, there's no going around it. What you propose is like drawing a Cartesian coordinate system (your galactic reference frame), placing a point at (3,7) (six-symbol address*), and trying to draw a line. You can't, because you don't know where the other point is. You have to know the coordinates of the point of origin. If you, or anyone else, is still confused about this, read up on Cartesian coordinate system and how vectors work in it.
    Short version of the above is: the gate or the DHD must now its position the galaxy and it's used to establish a wormhole.
    The problems start when you move a gate: I believe it (or its' accompanying DHD) has to be programmed with it's new location before first use, or it has to be dialed into before being able to dial out (so incoming wormhole can transmit the coordinates that were used do dial in).

    Now, why use six symbols? With the already necessary correlative updates, I suppose that placing the galaxy in a classical three-dimensional Cartesian coord. sys. would be possible. You'd need only 3 symbols to determine the location of a point. But the Ancients wanted to mix things up, and they used locations of known points (corresponding to symbols on the gate) to designate three intersecting lines in space. Maybe because it was harder to designate points of reference along the axes of the coordinate system, or maybe it's just making things difficult because you can .

    *Actually, to be more in line with how the gate works, you'd have to draw two lines, for example from (9,1) to (2,6) and from (3,2) to (6,5) and find their intersection point. Basically a 2D version of how the Stargate addressing works.

  6. #266
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    Earth Symbol Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    I agree with that last post for the most part.
    Here are my thoughts on it:

    1-Coordinates:
    In the original movie, Daniel Jackson drew a diagram of the coordinates+PoO.
    According to his drawing, the address dialed would be the intersection of three lines, connecting 6 constellations.
    I dont know about the order, but lets assume they form pairs: 1-2/3-4/5-6
    Since the constellations - or at least the barycenter of the stars composing it from our point of view(planet Earth) - have coordinates in 3D space, the second line may not intersect with the first, and the 3rd may not pass through the point where the former two intersected. Depending on the coordinates of all the constellations, it is even possible that none of the lines intersect. Which could mean, that it is sufficient for the lines to get close to each other.
    In other words: all 3 lines pass through a sphere (centered on the destination) of a given radius, representing an allowed error...maybe.
    But it makes travel outside the galaxy possible with only 6 symbols.
    When the lines are nearly parallel, they can intersect in a point far outside our galaxy.
    Using 1 or 2 more symbols for inter-galactic travel is pure none-sens, since it limits the number of galaxys to 38 or 38² possibilites, and referring to constellations in OUR galaxy in order to locate a planet in a different galaxy makes no sense.
    It would be better to have only one gate in the neighboring galaxy, with access to a local Stargate-Network(with different constellations as symbols...).

    2-Point of Origin(the actual problem here):
    There are 39 symbols on the Stargate and 38 on the DHD.
    The PoO-Symbol is present on the Stargate.
    I have seen the PoO-Symbol(unique ones) on some DHDs...
    The cartouche in Giza lists 13x3=39 Constellations, one of the symbols beeing Earth?!
    Errrr...
    Obviously this incoherence is the result of the creators not paying attention to what they where doing!!!
    The DHD is AT the PoO, and The BRB is pressed to finish the dialing process, thus eliminating the need for a seperate PoO-Symbol-Button.
    It is true that you need 2 points to draw a line, but the sending Stargate already has a position in space, and whatever mecanism/physics are used to create the wormhole, its effect has to form in its center, and then propagate in the direction(in Hyperspace) it is given.
    Like when you point a laser the light(Photons) shoot from their source(point1) in a certain direction until they hit an opaque object (point2).
    Direction means position relative to the origin, which means the DHD is capable of determining the Angle+distence(polar-coordinates) of each constellation, otherwise the positions would be wrong in a relativly short amount of time(10.000 years?).
    The PoO is only one symbol and cannot contain the position of a planet in space and time.

    The fact, that the symbols are constellations in our sky, means that whoever created this "font" probably did so on earth...whatever that means.


    3-Recieving Gate Dials:
    The Wormhole creates a "shortcut" through hyperspace.
    This does not mean that you will move through hyperspace( as in a different dimension), since 3D-Space is contained in Hyperspace(4+D-Sapce), but rather the wormhole creates a bridge outside of our usual 3D-Space (by distorting the original), that connects 2 points with a distance that is shorter than the straight line in our space.
    Which means, that if we were to project 4D-Space into 3D-Space, and thus 3D-Space as a Surface(2D), this surface would be curved, warped, etc. NOT straight!
    Then, it is possible to connect 2 points by line that is shorter than the line that is forced to follow the curved shape of the surface.
    The keyword is "shorter".
    The "shortcut" may still be several light-seconds, or even light-minutes long.
    According to Relativity, nothing can travel faster than light(in 3D-Space), including information.
    Also, travelers(or matter in general) are not transported instantly to the over side.

    But this also means that the recieving Stargate cannot know that it is beeing dialed without an already established wormhole-connection.
    The only explanation would be that the information is transferred to the recieving-gate by a second micro-wormhole and then the main-wormhole is created.
    This second (actually first...) wormhole has to be created after finishing the dialing sequence, obviously.
    The fact that the recieving end of the main-wormhole opens after the recieving gate has finished dialing, suggests, that the space-distortion progresses through hyperspace at the speed of light...maybe...


    Conclusion:
    PoO->Dialing sequence finished + manual dialing becomes possible
    PoO on DHD->possibly incoherence since not necessary

    But dont count on it, i'm not an Elder...ask me in a few decades.
    Last edited by Bagpuss; October 12th, 2015 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Please check the pic rules.:)

  7. #267
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    Arrow Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seldini View Post
    I was thinking about this while trying to answer another question. I understand the concept of having to have 7 points to plot a course, 6 for the destination and one for the origin, as explained in the movie. But why did the Ancients even have a Point of Origin?

    The gate dialing is much like that of a telephone, you dial a number, and no matter where you're calling from, you will connect to the same phone. It doesn't matter where the origin is. So if the first 6 symbols give you the destination of a gate, and those symbols will connect you to the same stargate no matter where the wormhole originates from, why would you bother to even have a Point of Origin symbol? It changes nothing about the wormhole connection and only complicates the process (as seen in the movie).

    Any thoughts?
    I have 4 ideas that may be likely for the pt Origin symbol 1st for the gate to determine power to focus into the wormhole, from either a closer location or a further location even in same galaxy 2nd to calculate the distance of which to extend the wormhole 3rd an end of address caricature, because there are 8 and 9 chevrons and the 4th gates can be moved and the pt Origin may be a way to check its position that it is where it is and update the location if necessary. Maybe some or all of these may be valid reasons.

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