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  1. #81
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    I understand where your all coming from but while specifics about the PoO haven't really been discused in the show if the show's navagational co-ordinance are based on any kind of science fact then you would have to account for planetary drift with both the destination and PoO otherwise the science in the show would be a complete contradictory joke.
    Also the fact that you can dial manually with out computors or DHD means the gate has to store the co-ordinance related to each symbol. Also in the ep Red sky the gate knew that they would pass through the sun even tho the SGC computors didn't. The DHD seems to be needed to update and program the gate but the gate has to have a redundent memory for situations where the DHD is lost or out of power.
    The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.

  2. #82
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gate Master
    The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.
    At that, I vote we leave this as "Undetermined at this Point" and wait for some clarification.

    Otherwise, we have a huge debate which no one can win.
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  3. #83
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    Stargate Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Which begs the question, why don't the DHDs do that automatically? Why do they need to dial other gate addresses to do that?
    They do. However, your still thinking that they update entire addresses. They don't. They DO, however, update coordinate symbol values. The reason a DHD dials up the other stargates automatically is to ensure that all the stargate's are on the same page. If the stargate's coordinate symbols were off, it could result in a loss of network cohesion. Even the Earth Stargate recieves a coorelative update.

    I may have flopped on this point, but it needs to be clarified just in case. The DHD's themselves are just a component of the Stargate. It is the Stargate itself that receive's a coorelative update although it is the DHD that does the automatic activations of all nearby stargates. A coorelative update process is like swinging a wide net to catch anything that you come across, but not aiming for any specifc thing. The ability to activate every stargate in the galaxy simultaneously is related to this particular gate function. The DHD's themselves do NOT even store the coordinate symbol values. It is the actual stargate ring itself that stores those values in relation to each coordinate symbol.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

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  4. #84
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    At that, I vote we leave this as "Undetermined at this Point" and wait for some clarification.

    Otherwise, we have a huge debate which no one can win.
    Your probably right although it may be a good question in the ask Joe thread, if he would commit to an anwser.
    Admitardly tho while I obviously do take account of show points I am applying a logical scientific reasoning to the PoO question.

  5. #85
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gate Master
    I understand where your all coming from but while specifics about the PoO haven't really been discused in the show if the show's navagational co-ordinance are based on any kind of science fact then you would have to account for planetary drift with both the destination and PoO otherwise the science in the show would be a complete contradictory joke.
    Also the fact that you can dial manually with out computors or DHD means the gate has to store the co-ordinance related to each symbol. Also in the ep Red sky the gate knew that they would pass through the sun even tho the SGC computors didn't. The DHD seems to be needed to update and program the gate but the gate has to have a redundent memory for situations where the DHD is lost or out of power.
    The main problem with the show is that there are too many continuity errors regarding the gate so we dont know whether we are coming or going.
    *repeated*...

    I may have flopped on this point, but it needs to be clarified just in case. The DHD's themselves are just a component of the Stargate. It is the Stargate itself that receive's a coorelative update although it is the DHD that does the automatic activations of all nearby stargates. A coorelative update process is like swinging a wide net to catch anything that you come across, but not aiming for any specifc thing. The ability to activate every stargate in the galaxy simultaneously is related to this particular gate function. The DHD's themselves do NOT even store the coordinate symbol values. It is the actual stargate ring itself that stores those values in relation to each coordinate symbol.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    Even the Earth Stargate recieves a coorelative update.
    I doubt that. As the said in Avenger 2.0, they've never witnessed such an event.

    In fact, if I may go out on a limb here, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a correlative update, as it was Ba'al who caused the problem, not the virus triggering an update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gate Master
    Admitardly tho while I obviously do take account of show points I am applying a logical scientific reasoning to the PoO question.
    I'm not a scientist, so I'm stuck with the just as useful, if not more so, ability called: logical reasoning and sense.
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  7. #87
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    Sam Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    I doubt that. As the said in Avenger 2.0, they've never witnessed such an event.

    In fact, if I may go out on a limb here, I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a correlative update, as it was Ba'al who caused the problem, not the virus triggering an update.
    I don't. As I said, it is the stargate ring itself that recieves the update not the DHD. The DHD simply activates I wide net sweep to all other nearby stargates passing the update along. Very similiar in fact to the "Twilight Bark" on last nights eps. of Atlantis.

    The reason the SGC had never witnessed a coorelative update until the Avenger incident is because it is unnecessary to have an update more than once every few thousand years. The SGC hasn't even been around for a full decade yet. Ba'al modified the virus program, but he didn't create the update process itself. The very fact that it worked, proves that the Stargate does indeed have a coorelative update. It is just that the updates are relatively rare.

    Also, the coorelative updates are necessary for the simple reason that every star in the galaxy changes its position over an extended period of time. The updates correct for relatively moderate changes in star position in relation to the coordinate symbol values. However, after an extremely long period of time (again, between 100's of thousands of years to millions of years) the star moves such a great distance that the stargates address itself must be changed, because simply modifying the coordinate symbol values is no longer enough. As I said though, any civilization advanced enough to use the Stargates routinely should be able to calculate new gate addresses long before it becomes necessary. O'Neill did give the SGC a revolutionary formula for calculation those changes in a much shorter time than had been previously necessary, but the scientist of Earth already knew how to do it. It just took a longer time to figure. A few weeks, instead of a few hours.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    I don't. As I said, it is the stargate ring itself that recieves the update not the DHD. The DHD simply activates I wide net sweep to all other nearby stargates passing the update along. Very similiar in fact to the "Twilight Bark" on last nights eps. of Atlantis.
    Well, if it's the gate which recieves the update, then how could the SGC still dial out?
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  9. #89
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    Stargate Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Well, if it's the gate which recieves the update, then how could the SGC still dial out?
    Simple. All the SGC dialing computer does, is spin the gate symbols to the central locking mechanism, in proper sequence. The gate itself already has the proper coordinate symbol values built into it. They don't need anything else. One thing the Earth Stargate can't do, is pass on (a very rare occurence) a coorelative update to other gates because it lacks a DHD. Unless the SGC dialing computer were programmed with that function later. Even if the Earth stargate doesn't pass on the update, it doesn't matter. There are enough gates and DHD's around the galaxy to compensate for a few stargates lacking DHD's in order to complete an update.

    If the SGC had to dial the gate by hand, and only had a gas generator to power the gate, they would still be able to dial out and receive those very rare updates.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

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    Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

  10. #90
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    The gate itself already has the proper coordinate symbol values built into it.
    Then that defeats the purpose of a correlative update, which is to change those values.

    If Earth's gate had recieved the same code as the other gates, then Earth would've been as cut off as the rest of the system. The fact otherwise proves that gates without DHDs are unaffected by those updates.
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  11. #91
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    DHD Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Then that defeats the purpose of a correlative update, which is to change those values.

    If Earth's gate had recieved the same code as the other gates, then Earth would've been as cut off as the rest of the system. The fact otherwise proves that gates without DHDs are unaffected by those updates.
    *sigh* No. It doesn't. I'm not sure you actually know what the coorelative updates are for. Each of the 38 coordinate symbols have a geo-numeric value that applies to a three dimensional X,Y,Z coordinates grid that uses a pan galactic standered, used by all stargates. The individual coordinate symbols actual counterparts in real space are constantly moving. The Stargate uses a targeting system that needs a relatively precise measurement to direct a wormhole to the proper coordinates. However, since those coordinates in real space are constantly moving, the coordinate symbol values which represent them, have to be adjusted in relation to them.

    The reason neither Ba'al's Stargate nor Earth's stargate was affected was because the Avenger virus didn't affect the stargate themselves, only their DHD's. As was explained on 'Avenger 2.0', it is like switching all the keys on a keyboard around. The coordinate symbol values were still correct, but their counterpart buttons on the DHD were all switched around. So anyone using a DHD to dial out, would always be dialing the wrong address, even if they physically hit all the keys on the DHD correctly. The only DHD that wasn't affected was Ba'al's DHD, because he knew which keys had been substituted. Also, since Earth doesn't use a DHD, the Earth stargate couldn't be affected.

    You see?
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

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  12. #92
    First Lieutenant Hybridbabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    I always took the PoO to be like this:

    You need to go to a gate on another planet in the solar system. So, you plug in that gate address in, and then you put in the PoO. That PoO allows the Stargate technology to try and make a connection to another gate via gauging the distance between the other planet you're trying to go to (the first 6 symbols) and where you are now. If the energy output is sufficient enough and the gate is not too far away, then the wormhole will open. If not, it won't, and the dial-up sequence is halted and aborted.

    And the PoO is relative to WHERE YOU ARE, meaning that if you're going from Earth to Abydos (for example), Earth would be your origin. If you're going in the reverse, then Abydos would be the origin. I think each time you dial the gate, it creates an entirely NEW wormhole from one place to another (it's not part of a "hub" of wormholes that opens and closes in space if you tell them to). The PoO helps you establish if it's possible to have each of the gates connect.


    (Does any of that make sense? I'm not a science/physics major, so I don't know.... then again, I'm not a Stargate major either lol)

  13. #93
    Major Seastallion's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybridbabe
    I always took the PoO to be like this:

    You need to go to a gate on another planet in the solar system. So, you plug in that gate address in, and then you put in the PoO. That PoO allows the Stargate technology to try and make a connection to another gate via gauging the distance between the other planet you're trying to go to (the first 6 symbols) and where you are now. If the energy output is sufficient enough and the gate is not too far away, then the wormhole will open. If not, it won't, and the dial-up sequence is halted and aborted.

    And the PoO is relative to WHERE YOU ARE, meaning that if you're going from Earth to Abydos (for example), Earth would be your origin. If you're going in the reverse, then Abydos would be the origin. I think each time you dial the gate, it creates an entirely NEW wormhole from one place to another (it's not part of a "hub" of wormholes that opens and closes in space if you tell them to). The PoO helps you establish if it's possible to have each of the gates connect.


    (Does any of that make sense? I'm not a science/physics major, so I don't know.... then again, I'm not a Stargate major either lol)
    Hello friend...

    Yes, your point of origin IS always where you start your journey from. However, in terms of gate operating procedures, the PoO is unique to individual stargates. All stargates have 39 symbols on them, one of which is the Point of Origin. The DHD's only have the normal 38 symbols that are common to all stargates.

    I'm afraid that some of your notions regarding stargate operating procedures is a bit off. Of course there are no permenant wormholes. They are formed as needed. However, the Stargates themselves are fixed on specific locations. One of the really major notions you have wrong is that you can use the stargate to go to another planet in the same solar system. You can't. The Stargate ONLY works at interstellar distances, not intrastellar. On the other hand, a Ring Transporter could be used to travel from Earth to the Moon. However, that is a seperate technology from the Stargate itself.

    If you'd like to know more of the specifics, I recommend going backwards through this thread to some of my earlier post.
    The success or failure of your deeds, does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed! Judge yourself by the intentions of your actions, and by the strength with which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way. The Universe is so vast, and we are so small, there is only truly one thing we can control; whether we are good or evil... -Oma Desala
    Spoiler:

    To all the 'Sci & Tech' forum users: If you are searching for a thread about your topic of interest, please come visit our Concordance Thread. If you have any questions, we will attempt to help you.
    http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=26498

    Feel free to pass the green..!

    My Website... http://return-of-the-constitution.webs.com
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    Also, visit my webpage at... http://www.stargatesg1.com/Seastallion Sadly, this page is gone with the website that supported it, but I'll keep the link up in memorial.

  14. #94
    Second Lieutenant AscendedWarrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    The PoO is for caller id. We just haven't managed to translate it to stargate symbols. But the gate still receive the information, thats why we could bypass the failsafe in Red Sky, we sent a false number.

    Also you put it in when you have entered the right combination of symbols, so you don't dial a 7 symbol adress when you in fact tried to dial a 8 symbol long adress.
    Last edited by AscendedWarrior; January 22nd, 2006 at 01:42 PM.

  15. #95
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    *sigh* No. It doesn't. I'm not sure you actually know what the coorelative updates are for. Each of the 38 coordinate symbols have a geo-numeric value that applies to a three dimensional X,Y,Z coordinates grid that uses a pan galactic standered, used by all stargates. The individual coordinate symbols actual counterparts in real space are constantly moving. The Stargate uses a targeting system that needs a relatively precise measurement to direct a wormhole to the proper coordinates. However, since those coordinates in real space are constantly moving, the coordinate symbol values which represent them, have to be adjusted in relation to them.

    The reason neither Ba'al's Stargate nor Earth's stargate was affected was because the Avenger virus didn't affect the stargate themselves, only their DHD's. As was explained on 'Avenger 2.0', it is like switching all the keys on a keyboard around. The coordinate symbol values were still correct, but their counterpart buttons on the DHD were all switched around. So anyone using a DHD to dial out, would always be dialing the wrong address, even if they physically hit all the keys on the DHD correctly. The only DHD that wasn't affected was Ba'al's DHD, because he knew which keys had been substituted. Also, since Earth doesn't use a DHD, the Earth stargate couldn't be affected.

    You see?
    I haven't watched the avenger ep for a while but if I remember didn't they try a manual dial which also failed. If they did then that suggests that even tho the gate receices the update, that it requires the DHD to program the gate.
    Also thinking back to when they were searching for Keb didn't Bratak mention that the initial legend took place on one of the few mining planets with in a system. This infers that gates are placed on more than one planet in a solar system although it wasn't mention if you could travel within the system through the gate network as it could be the equivelent of having two gates on one planet although they did actually appear to have different co-ordinance. Aside from two gates on one planet I dont recall any specific distance mentioned in the show that must exist before you can place another gate, and then there's the using of the same six symbols in a different order which has been introduced on Atlantis and perhaps this is related. But what are your thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Gate Master; January 22nd, 2006 at 06:01 PM.

  16. #96
    Second Lieutenant AscendedWarrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    They never said all of the mining planets had stargates, they could easily have transported all the ore to one planet with a stargate within the system.

  17. #97
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by AscendedWarrior
    They never said all of the mining planets had stargates, they could easily have transported all the ore to one planet with a stargate within the system.
    I agree and thats one thing that sometimes niggles me about the show when they're vague on things that we would really like clarification on. They did mention the word systom tho and brought up a short list of gate addresses but they may even have being using the word system in an entirely different context.

  18. #98
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Do you people no what Caller ID is? Caller ID is so when I call someone the other person knows I am calling before he picks up the phone. You don't need Caller ID to work a phone. Although, you do need the PoO to work the Stargate because it is the Point in Space that You are Traveling from. Juat like a cell phone. It has a chip in it to tell it what satalite to use because it sends a signal and then their is communication.
    *Post in Peace, Yah or Nah*
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  19. #99
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Going all the way back to the beginning of the series, they explained not being able to make connections to other gates because their dialing program didn't account for planetary drift. Seems the dialing system must do SOMETHING besides just spin the wheel. The gate may just use the last known 'good' set of data it has when dialed manually.

  20. #100
    Second Lieutenant AscendedWarrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by LORD MONK
    Do you people no what Caller ID is? Caller ID is so when I call someone the other person knows I am calling before he picks up the phone. You don't need Caller ID to work a phone. Although, you do need the PoO to work the Stargate because it is the Point in Space that You are Traveling from. Juat like a cell phone. It has a chip in it to tell it what satalite to use because it sends a signal and then their is communication.
    Well you can't choose if you want to receive a incoming wormhole, like on a phone. But if you have an iris and caller id you can choose not to open it. And the only reason you need the PoO is to know when the adress ends, why would the other gate need to know from where you were dialing from?

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