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  1. #41
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    The issue isn't why do you need A point of origin, it's how does a single symbol, which is static no matter where in the galaxy the gate is taken, constitute a PoO.

  2. #42
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsDan
    The issue isn't why do you need A point of origin, it's how does a single symbol, which is static no matter where in the galaxy the gate is taken, constitute a PoO.
    The way I understood the initial thread was why do we need the symbol as the gate should beable to connect with out it. If ive misunderstood it then I apologise.
    From what I have understood from the series, even tho the symbol is static I assumed it was constantly updated along with all the other co-ordinance through the corralitive updates. Plus if it hadn't been for the eps where they used stargates on ships I would have assumed that when a stargate is placed on a planet it had to be calibrated for those particular co-ordinance, ie 6 symbols for that planet made in to 1 the picture being irrelevant of course.
    I can only speculate with the ship eps tho but perhaps those gates were tied in to the navigational systems on the ships by function on the goauld ship and by automated convieniance on the asgard.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    In short... you don't know what your talking about. There is no "operational range" for the Stargate. As long as it has enough power to reach the address your trying to dial, it will work no matter where it is.
    Way to take a statement out of context... We are talking about the Point of Origin here, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seastallion
    The Stargate Address deals with an entire star system, not a single planet. The Stargate on Earth could be on Pluto, Mercury, or the Moon, and someone dialing to our stargate would still be able to activate it.
    Which is the point I was originally trying to make: Points of Origin have an operational range. When you dial another planet, the destination gate attracts the wormhole to it like electricity is attracted from positive to negative. What happens if you seperate two electrodes too much? The electricity can no longer arc between them, and it stops working. That is the operational range; the distance a stargate can migrate from its original address before it no longer works.

    If you take the volume of the Milky Way and divide by the maximum number of possible gate addresses, you end up with a volume of ~105,000 cubic light years per Stargate.
    If you then consider that volume is contained in a sphere, you end up with a radius of ~30 light years, which means a star can migrate up to ~30 light years before a correlative update is required (I'm assuming that a stars orbit around the center of the galaxy is already part of the equation, otherwise the entire system breaks down).
    So, not only does the point of origin cover an entire solar system, it would cover any solar system that was within ~30 light years of any gate. That means you can't put gates on worlds closer together than that, because an incoming wormhole would have two or more potential destinations (as shown in Solitudes and Watergate).

    Since all of the available gate addresses are most likely not being used, it means there are vast expanses of space that have no gates at all. That in turn allows gate systems to migrate around quite a bit without bumping into each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat
    DHDs aren't supossed to have POO symbols on them...
    You're right, they're not supposed to be on the DHD. There are only 38 symbols on the DHD, and of course if the PoO is put on there, then you need 39. Usually they replace the Aquila symbol with the PoO of choice. I'm guessing this was a production afterthought.
    If they were going to originally use the PoO on the DHD, they would have had it painted on the BRB.

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsDan
    The issue isn't why do you need A point of origin, it's how does a single symbol, which is static no matter where in the galaxy the gate is taken, constitute a PoO.
    I think the point of origin and the address probably represent the same thing for different purposes.

    The address is a galactic means of orientation; the PoO is probably something like that, but for gate orientation. Stuff like orbital characteristics, revolution period, stellar migration, etc. By sending the PoO symbol, you're telling the destination DHD/Gate where you're dialing from relative to your gate address.

    While this doesn't seem all that important, if your gate hasn't been used in a few thousand (or million) years, the DHD information on your gate would be out of date. It might be impossible to dial back home, because your home gate migrated beyond the 30 light year limit, and now the DHD can't connect back.
    So, by giving the destination gate your PoO, you're telling it "this is where I am now; update my location before I come there so I can dial home".
    Jarnin's Law of StarGate:

    1. As a StarGate discussion grows longer, the probability of someone mentioning the Furlings approaches one.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    So, not only does the point of origin cover an entire solar system, it would cover any solar system that was within ~30 light years of any gate. That means you can't put gates on worlds closer together than that, because an incoming wormhole would have two or more potential destinations


    Isn't Abydos closer than that?

  5. #45
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    First off, this thread is about, why is there a point of origin, right?

    You have six symbols that calculate were you are going in space. Then the seven symbol is the point of origin wich means were you are coming from. So with out he point of origin the wormhole will not connect because it doesn't know were it is connecting to. It's pretty self explanitory.

    Daniel used the Gate on Apophis's ship by dialing a planet and then using Earth as the point of origin because he was Earths orbit. So yes you do need to be by a planet to gate. Daniel says this. Not the hole need a planet thing but using Earth as the point of origin he was able to dial out. It's like plotting a course. On Earth you would only need Lon. and lat. to know were you are going. But in order to plot a course you need to know were you are.

    Six symbols = were you are going
    seventh symbols = were you are starting from.


    And what does caller ID have to do with anything and what is PoO?
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    This is my first post here, so... Uh, hi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seldini
    So if the first 6 symbols give you the destination of a gate, and those symbols will connect you to the same stargate no matter where the wormhole originates from, why would you bother to even have a Point of Origin symbol?
    I scanned through this thread, and there seem to be two very important points missing: Stargates dial each other once in a while to adjust for galactic shifts, and Stargates can work with or without a DHD. Here's my theory about how it works:

    The seventh signal is used as a ping-back address. When you enter in the seven symbols, what's you're telling the gate network is: I want to go to this six symbol address, and I'm dialing from this point of origin. When the handshake starts -- that time when Walter announces, "Unscheduled off-world activation," but before the wormhole forms -- the distination gate is receiving a signal from the PoO gate. It takes that seventh symbol, checks its database, and makes sure that it's okay to open the wormhole. Let's not forget the fifth season episode "Red Sky," where the Stargate only worked because Carter hacked past some protocols -- Rodney mentions in "48 Hours" that there are tons of protocols in a DHD, protocols that their homebrewed system doesn't have.

    The seventh, PoO symbol is important because it tells the destination gate where it's coming from. As someone pointed out in regards to Atlantis, in times of war, Ancient's could probably setup a kind of firewall to make sure they didn't get blocked from dialing out.

    I'd be willing to go so far as to say that, to a stargate, the symbols aren't even true representations of addresses. They're likely akin to domain addresses ("yahoo.com", "google.com", or "gateworld.net"), something that's easier for Jaffa or preists to remember, rather than a string of numbers -- ala the numbered clicks Daniel decyphered in "There But For The Grace Of God." Most, if not all, of the Goa'uld were content in the Milkyway Galaxy, so the symbols became the star fields defacto. Considering that Stargates can be used to dial to at least two other known galaxies, and since it's highly doubtful the constellations would carry over to another galaxy, this seems more likely.

    Also, in regards to someone's question about why people would press the big, red button on a DHD, see my second point above. The DHD is just an interface. Why do some websites use JavaScript to jump you to another field when you've filled one out? Why don't others? The big, red button is pretty much just an Enter key. "Press here when finished."

    In closing, unlike modern telecomm systems, the Stargate network truly is a peer-to-peer network. There is no central index of addresses, Stargates can (and do) get physically moved around, and sometimes they even need a new DHD; all of these factors add weight to the necessity for a seventh PoO symbol. The destination Stargate needs a way to reference the other gate so it can act accordingly to te protocol of its DHD or other dialing system.

    If you're really interested, I suggested hitting Wikipedia and checking out their article on "TCP/IP packets" and "Mesh networks" for better idea of where I'm coming from.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by LORD MONK
    Then the seven symbol is the point of origin wich means were you are coming from.
    Yes, but the gate SHOULD be able to figure out for itself where it is! There is NO reason to dial the PoO on the dumb DHD!
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Yes, but the gate SHOULD be able to figure out for itself where it is! There is NO reason to dial the PoO on the dumb DHD!
    The gate's not the device that figures out it's location, that's the DHD's job. Remember in "Avenger 2.0," it was only Earth (with no DHD) and Baal (immune DHD) that could dial. Every other DHD interface was screwed up.

    The Stargate only opens wormholes and buffers matter. The DHD does everything else, apparently.

  9. #49
    Captain SmallTimePerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Yes, but the gate SHOULD be able to figure out for itself where it is! There is NO reason to dial the PoO on the dumb DHD!
    then why did daniel need to figure out the point of origin for earth, if the stargate is sooo smart. Stargates can be put in ships and moved around, the PoO is the planet it is on/close to. The stargate not knowing its PoO may help when it comes to prisons. Just stick prisoners on an island and only let guards have a personal DHD and know what the PoO is, so even if the prisoners get the Personal dialing device, they cant dial out.

  10. #50
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    Yes, but the gate SHOULD be able to figure out for itself where it is! There is NO reason to dial the PoO on the dumb DHD!
    The DHD is a dialing device that not only dials the gate but can calculate for planetary drift. Therefore all of the DHD's are hooked up to caclulate and update as needed. All of the gate addresses we have we got from Daniel and by now other sources. The ones we explore we already know there point of origin symbol for when we return. In Children of the Gods Daniel came up on all kinds of gate adresses and that is what we have bean dialing.

    Ball was able to disrupt the gate system becuase all of the DHD's are connected, that is why Earths gate wasn't infected. Our gate also calculates planetary drift by a program that good ol' Carter came up with.
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  11. #51
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insipid
    To go anywhere you need a Point A [Departure] and a Point B [Destination], you know, you need to be somewhere to go some place else. The Point of Origin is required to make a connection to The Point of... Destination.

    To continue with the analogy, and to rip of Daniel Jackson's explanation of The Point of Origin from Stargate: The Movie; imagine that there is a string. The first end is where we are [Point of Origin] and the second end is where we want to go.

    I could explain it better, but it's 7:41 AM and I have yet to sleep tonight. Sorry.
    Sorry to gatecrash, but I think we already knew that.

    i think you've misunderstood the question.

    The point we're trying to work out is WHY is the point of origin even needed in the first place - we know why it's used, but WHY is it even used?

    Like caller ID. You know how to use it, but you don't know why the phone company really invented it..

    To refer to an earlier analogy, where ever you are in the world you can dial a phone number and connect - with or without caller ID.

    Why then do the gates need the POO when they clearly know the destination? - It can't be an energy issue as someone else described as it's fairly common knowledge that the transmitting gate powers both ends of the connection.

    -Turboz

  12. #52
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmallTimePerson
    then why did daniel need to figure out the point of origin for earth,
    That was a movie point, not a show point. The PoO only remained because they wanted to maintain some similarity with the movie, which only had it because they needed a way to introduce Daniel.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbov21
    The gate's not the device that figures out it's location, that's the DHD's job. Remember in "Avenger 2.0," it was only Earth (with no DHD) and Baal (immune DHD) that could dial. Every other DHD interface was screwed up.
    The Correlative Update is for the DHD, not the gate. Don't forget: you can use the gate without a DHD, (Earth does that all the time) so the gate can work anywhere. The problem is the DHD.
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  13. #53
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    The more I go through this thread the more Im getting confused as to what the question is. On the one hand some people say they understand the need for a point of origin but on the other they compare it to a telephone system which doesn't need an PoO, and ask the question why is it included in the gate system.
    Could somebody please define the question. Is it why there is a PoO on the DHD or why the gate system uses a PoO?

    This is more complicated than time travel debates.
    Last edited by Gate Master; January 18th, 2006 at 09:28 AM.

  14. #54
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    You NEED a point of origin because that is how it works. Daniel explained it very well. What is the problem. Yes, you can take a gate anywhere and dial somewhere. But you do need to be near a planet to do so. Daniel said this when he explained how to gate to another gate from space. The Gate system is nothing like a telephone system so stop comparing. It has nothing to do with caller ID and caller I was iventd so people know who's calling them and that is all it doesand invented for. If you don't think that a point of origin is need then go build a stargate system without one. And of course the telephone knows here it is calling from. The Answering machine tells it right when you plug it in.
    Answering machine - So, how did you make it over to the east side.
    Phone - I don't know, one minute I was on a shelf and the next minute I was pulled out of a bag.
    Answering machine - Well don't worry, life is simple here. O'ya if you ring and no one gets it then it is for me, got it.
    phone - got it.
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  15. #55
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Having gone through this thread again still cant tell what the question is as different people seem to think its about different things, but ill go with best guess.
    If the question is why does the DHD have a PoO symbol then I agree its useless as the main button should do it all in one. The only possible purpose is a quick means for the ancients to identify particular planets by a certain symbal and so put it on those planets DHD

    However if the question is why have a PoO as a static symbol especially in a moving universe then you may as well ask the question why have a six symbol address.

    As I have mentioned previous comparing to a phone isn't going to help, and a better anology would be geographical co-ordinance on a map. Even tho these co-ordinance are stationary and you may know the co-ordinance of where you want to go. You still need to know where you are in relation to your destination otherwise you still cant find it. This is exactly what the PoO does and even tho in constant motion will be calibrated by the coralitive updates and is likely possible for it to be linked in with ships nav computors when dialing from a ship. The symbol itsself is meaningless and just a means of entering 6symbols (the starting point) with one button.

    As i previously said in simplistic terms the gate whether on a planet, ship or where ever it is needs to know which way to point the wormhole and the distances involved to establish a connection with the destination co-ordinance. To do this it needs to know where it is in relation to the destination and its own co-ordinance.
    Calibrating the PoO is as important as calibrating the 6symbol address.

  16. #56
    Airman midnitespider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    I don’t know if anyone’s said this yet but, you have to have a point of origin no matter what. If you dial a telephone, how can you connect if you aren’t calling form anywhere, hence, the point of origin. The other chevrons are meant to form a map to where your wormhole is going to connect to. The Point of origin is the final step. You need to have a place of departure to go on a trip to somewhere. You don’t start where you want to go to; you start at where you are leaving.

  17. #57
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gate Master
    Calibrating the PoO is as important as calibrating the 6symbol address.
    You're making me want to kill you! (I get frusterated by people who are acting like idiots.)

    Tell me this: if this is so, then how could Earth even begin to use the gate, since obviously it'd tell the destination to connect to a place where it isn't.

    Simply, the counter for that argument is a gate without a DHD that is manually dialed: IT STILL WORKS!
    This poster has a Superiority Complex. Apologies in advance.

  18. #58
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    You're making me want to kill you! (I get frusterated by people who are acting like idiots.)

    Tell me this: if this is so, then how could Earth even begin to use the gate, since obviously it'd tell the destination to connect to a place where it isn't.

    Simply, the counter for that argument is a gate without a DHD that is manually dialed: IT STILL WORKS!
    Calm down, we are all fans. Some people just don't understandthe concept of this has already been explained. In the movie and in The Children of the Gods. The pilot is when we got all of are gate addresses and their point of origin. And Carter came up with the computer program to caclulate planetary drift.


    This is all spelled out for you peoples. You can't argue because it is science fiction and none of this existes.
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  19. #59
    Second Lieutenant Gate Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDot
    You're making me want to kill you! (I get frusterated by people who are acting like idiots.)

    Tell me this: if this is so, then how could Earth even begin to use the gate, since obviously it'd tell the destination to connect to a place where it isn't.

    Simply, the counter for that argument is a gate without a DHD that is manually dialed: IT STILL WORKS!
    Do you even watch the show? By your argument since we dont have a DHD there's no need to calibrate for planetary shift cause the gate does it magically. Talk about frustratingly stupid

  20. #60
    Major LORD MONK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is there a Point of Origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gate Master
    Do you even watch the show? By your argument since we dont have a DHD there's no need to calibrate for planetary shift cause the gate does it magically. Talk about frustratingly stupid
    No, Carter made a program that caclulates that.
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