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Thread: Michael (218)

  1. #41
    Chief Master Sergeant donniepw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Seems to me the only one who was thinking straight was Ronan. Who in the world actually thought bringing a wraith to Atlantis was a good idea? What's next? How about we bring a wraith through the gate to the SGC and inplant him with a Goa'uld and see if we can't all be friends. To me the biggest problem with this episode is that all the main characters with the exception of Ronan and maybe Teyla seemed to take leave of their senses. Wier and Beckett really seemed out of character in this episode. Now we are practically right back where we were this point in season one, the wraith are comming, again. Just seems a bit soon to revisit this particular plot line.
    Last edited by donniepw; January 17th, 2006 at 01:29 PM.
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  2. #42
    Captain Merlin7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    A disturbing ep. Guess this is the DARK ep that Torri was talking about for Weir and Beckett. interesting that Beckett wanted to do this and Weir approved it.

    I thought their reactions and their ability to lie to him so easily was chilling. OOC too. Kind of. Hmmm. Must ponder that more.

    Shep and Teyla and Ronon and Rodney seemed IN character for me.

    Too much with Kate and Michael and Michael and teyla moments. Repetitious when I would have preferred Michael interact with others more. And given that Shep had done his own conversion, I would have liked a scene with him and Michael that was along that lines. Somehow.

    Like Ronon and Shep working together to get Teyla back.

    I think it was interesting how everyone felt about it. Ronon was all about Michael being a Wraith. Period. I think he's right. Teyla believed in Michael's humanity. ::wishful thinking::

    Shep didnt' seem to relate to Michael as either. Like he kept himself detached about that aspect of it. It was nice to see him worried about the safety aspects of letting Michael wander about, even witha guard. And he seemed focused on the end result of the experiment.

    Beckett and Weir's reactions still unsettle me.

    Rodney was too the point. He wasn't comfortable around Michael and he, obviously, still saw him as a Wraith/threat.

    The moral ethics here are very interesting.

    I can accept what Shep said. They are at war. And that's a fact. And Weir's decision to do this has now led to them being rediscovered and back in danger. That falls totally on her shoulders and I wonder if there will be follow through to that in INFERNO and ALLIES.

    Interesting how after he question to Shep about how do they differ from the Wraith in Critical mass given the Torture issue and all, and now she does this? Yeah...waffle much?

    I found Teyla and Ronon and Shep to be as they have been before. Their reactions were true to their past actions/beliefs.

    Yeah...interesting ep. Not as good as Coup but, interesting.

    And, because I'm shallow at times. SHEP WAS HOT! Everyone did a great job acting but Connor and Joe were the best for me.

  3. #43
    Major xfkirsten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpool_chicK
    I liked this episode. I must say that they must finally gotten out of there 'let's take ideas from SG-1 and use them in Atlantis.' It was nice to see something that did not really involve having think with the gun and not with their head. I also liked that the fact that almost everyone involve with the project had some form of moral problem, it was just me or did anyone else find it odd that Elizabeth didnt really have a problem with the experiment and was completely out of touch with her human side.
    *raises hand* I did! It's interesting in light of the change we've seen in her over the last several episodes - letting go of the ideals which she's held so closely. Still, at the same time I thought it was really odd that she didn't seem the least bit opposed to this one. Sure, she's had twelve days to come to terms with her decision, but there was absolutely no hint that she second-guessed herself at all on the decision to experiment on him.
    "Sometimes we reach what's realest by making believe..."
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  4. #44
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_faith
    They make a story up and fill it in with the characters so they can fit the story.... We should follow OUR characters and what happen to them ... BUt here again, it's called continuity and character developpement.... Doesn't exist in SG
    Maybe that is due to the episode being plot driven instead of character driven - not every episode need be pure character development.
    Last edited by randy; January 17th, 2006 at 01:34 PM.

  5. #45
    Airman
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Very good performance from the Michael actor. He would have been a great addition for a permanent role in Atlantis.

    Not sure if they really explained why they suddenly had a Wraith in capture. How did they get hold on Michael in the first place, they could have taken a minute or two and showed that. Was a bit too sudden opening in this ep.

    Ronon, not sure what he actually have accomplished in this second season of Atlantis. I read the writers said he would add a lot to Atlantis team, but I haven't seen him as a crucial teammember yet. He has had little to do, we need to get more backstory on him.

    Weir seems to be more straightforward in her decisions now. She is willing to risk more. We see a more "darker" side of her coming.

    In general, I get the feeling that the Atlantis team is doing the wrong decisions all the time. For example, in the last eps, they trusted the genii guy in Coup, they trusted the alien in Long Goodbye, and they now thought the retrovirus would be a good thing all the time in this episode, except Teyla and Ronon. And probably more mistakes to come.

    And as another user here pointed out, we almost get the same situation again as in last season. The Wraith again know of Atlantis. I wish we could see more of events from the Wraiths eyes, clips or sequences where the Wraiths talk to each other.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Michael (218)

    I actually liked this one!! I've always been partial to the 'morality' episodes and it was about time they did one here. I'm sure someone has done it at some point, but i have often thought of starting a thread that basically said "who are we to say we are the superior ones". Does everyone remember the episode 'Pretence' in SG1 where Lord Sepakna says someting like "if a human has the right to take a pig and do what it wishes with it because he is a superior being, then so does a goa'uld, because he is a superior being."

    I thought Conner Trinner was excellent as Michael. Especially in the early parts of the episode. I really empathised with him, to the extent that even when he was a wraith i still felt for him which was obviously need for the episode. But i can imagine other actors not pulling that off as well.
    Rachel was great again, and i liked the new development that the wraith can 'make' her do things. that could be interesting in the future.

    Beckett..now there was one specific moment i will remember from this episode..when elizabeth turns to him and asks if he wants to up the dose. He really seemed to be wrestling, but more importantly as soon as he said 'yes' he almost looked ashamed with himself. Ashamed that there was something in him, some character trait that would allow him to take that action...which brings to mind something else...

    People have been saying that we are fiting the characters to the plot and that developments don't match what we know of our characters. i do see your point but i also think we have to be careful not to put our characters in a box that they started in and say 'this character is defined by these values and will not stray'. Obviously people are way way more complicated than that. Not only are there things we don't know about these guys, but there are things they don't even know about themselves. and after all, alot has happened to all of them. Look at what 7yrs as a runner did to ronon. there are bound to be consequences for our lot too. However, I actually agree in the case of Weir for this episode. I believe her characters 'omg how could i have done/said that' was really in 'critical mass' where she almost resorted to torture. but i did believe it for beckett in this episode, mainly because of the scene and his reaction mentioned above. he almost looked scared!

  7. #47
    Lieutenant Colonel Arlessiar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Oh wow, this episode wasn't easy to accept for me. Interesting, yes, well-made too, and I guess it was its goal to make people think about the moral ambiguity of human beings. But I still think what the team did was very questionable. Their motives were a little disturbing. I know, we often heard that Beckett and Weir are getting "darker", but still, I had some very serious "out of character" thoughts during this episode. Mostly with Sheppard. Less with Weir, that's where her character was going since the last eps.
    I could understood Ronon very well, he was the only one who had real doubts. But then again, he also didn't say that the ethics behind this experiment were questionable. He just thought that a Wraith will ever be a Wraith, and so he simply didn't trust Michael.
    Beckett made me wonder. He developed this retrovirus, but he never seems to be comfortable with that. Whenever they talked about Michael he looked as if he was tortured emotionally. He even openly blamed himself. Well, it's a little late for that now. It will be interesting to see where his character will be going in the future. Sciene versus morale seems to be a real conflict for him, but he clearly doesn't stand on either side completely. Well, the "good ol' Doc Beckett" is definitely the Beckett of the past. Not that this must be a bad thing, but it's definitely not so easy to accept for me.
    I wonder how do they want to explain their actions to the SGC in their weekly report.
    This ep didn't make the mistake to tell the viewer what is wrong and what is right. They leave it open, so that everyone can think about it. But then again, you also see that the heroes of the show, the characters you like and identifiy with, think their actions were justified. Nearly all of them. And this gives me the impression that it is expected that the viewer should be on their side because it's normally the side of "the good guys".
    Well... not that I think that the Wraith are so wonderful that no-one should do them any harm. It's war, and war often calls for desperate measures. But did they have the right to take an individual and force him to undergo this drastic changes which, and let's try to be realistic, won't have a happy ending? I mean, they couldn't really expect that this will work and that he'll be a happy member of the Atlantis crew/earth citizen from then on, could they? Can you give someone a identity just like that and it will work out? Even if Michael suspected nothing - some day someone would have made a wrong comment or two people would have contradicted each other in an aspect concerning him.
    And if their goal was to make him believe that he is a human - why does Heightmeyer suggest hypnosis then to help him remember 'his past'? The danger that Wraith memories would come through is high!



    Other things I noticed:

    - So Rodney loves blue jello. It's official now! Ever since his appearances in SG1 this was mentioned in fanfics. And now they said it on the show and made it canon. I thought that was very funny!
    - Carson falling asleep. Yes, he must have been exhausted, but I highy doubt that he slept very deeply in this position and wouldn't have been awakened by Michael's actions.
    - Physical therapy? Hehe, that was everything but PT!
    - The Set. I know that they only have a limited amount of rooms on the set and need some rooms for several different locations, but it's very obvious sometimes. The private room in the infirmary was the same as the operating theatre in "Coup D'etat". Let's hope they have no emergency, or more than this one OR. Did you see it, the floor of the surveillance room above the OR was made of wood! Never seen that before in Atlantis. And there were large black drapes on the big window.
    What I like is that they are at least consequential with the rooms - Heightmeyers office is still the same it ever was (and Ronon's quarter from "Runner" is identical with her office. )
    - The door to Michael's quarter. So there are still doors you need to open by hand in Atantis! That they gave him this room with a glass door was logical, this way they could always watch him from outside. But it would have made me even more suspicious if I was Michael.
    - The computer they put into Michael's room. I wonder if someone actually made that thing look as if it was used already, with faked emails for example.
    - Why did Michael went to bed with scrubs the second night?
    - The calendar in the infirmary with pictures from Scotland! Very cute! But there were actually entries/dates on it. I always thought that an earth calendar would be of no use on Atlantis because the days are longer there. But maybe they want to stick to it, no matter if the seasons don't match.
    - I thought it was an interesting idea that Michael used Teyla to escape. But wow, I didn't know that she was such a security risk. Look how easy it was for Michael to manipulate her, I don't even want to know what a 100% Wraith could make her do. She faced one in The Siege III, but there she just experienced pain and didn't become his marionette.
    - The alpha site. That's the first time we actually saw the alpha site, right? Looks a lot like the one earth has in SG1!

    Saw another German scientist this time. And good news for the Aussies - there were two Australians in this episode! A woman from the medical department in the cafeteria and a person that was walking down the stairs when they escorted Michael to the infirmary.
    Last edited by Arlessiar; January 17th, 2006 at 03:17 PM.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Michael (218)

    dont neone get to down on where there heading with the storyline ;-) wait till u see allies! ^^

  9. #49
    First Lieutenant spirited Chihiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlessiar

    Saw another German scientist this time. And good news for the Aussies - there were two Australians in this episode! A woman from the medical department in the cafeteria and a person that was walking down the stairs when they escorted Michael to the infirmary.
    Awesome..i will have to keep my eye out, well that is if i remember once it actually makes it to australia!

  10. #50
    Intergalactic Hussy
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    OMG! I LOVED this episode. This is how I wish I could feel after an episode of SG-1 this season. Sure my letch for Connor Trineer could have something to do with my love of this episode (only he could still be sexy in Wraith make-up), but it's not just that. This episode really addressed some deep issues and didn't offer pat answers to those questions. Everything wasn't tied up in a neat little bow and I was still left wondering about the ethical ramification of team Atlantis's treatment of Michael. It also opens up a whole 'nother door regarding the Wraith and whether they're really and truly evil or if they are simply in a sense "meat-eaters". I mean, I eat a hamburger and I don't really think about the cow that provided it. Does that make me evil to cows?

    The episode also makes me wonder whether Michael's Wraith instincts would have still taken over if he hadn't figured out what they had done to him? Would he just have continued on with the treatments or would they have eventually taken him over anyway? There was a great dynamic between him and Teyla, sort of like recognizing like, which is a nice follow-up to Teyla's Wraith DNA and I really liked their interaction. Oddly enough it also makes me wonder about Wraith mating practices. I know I know...I'm a naughty girl. But seriously is it like an insect thing? The one queen and the drones? Things that make you go hmmm...

    So we're all set up for another siege on Atlantis. I hope it's something more interesting than that though. I look forward to seeing how Atlantis diverts disaster this time.

  11. #51
    Second Lieutenant Buzz Lightyear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by Patbay
    dont neone get to down on where there heading with the storyline ;-) wait till u see allies! ^^
    But do the ends justify the means?
    To Infinity And Beyond!

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  12. #52
    Colonel ToasterOnFire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    I thought it was a good episode. Interesting plot, good pacing, no subplot distractions, and some welcome screentime for other characters.


    -Trineer did a great job here. He made me sympathize with him through the ep, even when he was turning back into a wraith. Great casting decision on this one.

    -I was spoiled for this episode. Out of all the episodes I wish I hadn't have spoiled myself on, this is it. The mystery and shock were subsequently ruined for me, and I feel like I would have enjoyed the episode much more if I didn't know the truth about Michael.

    -Yes, the retroviral science is a complete fanwank. There's no way one could cause that drastic of a physical change by suppressing certain genes. More likely the subject would die. It's sci-fi, emphasis on FICTION.

    -I agree with Mackan - the team have been making some very poor decisions in the last couple of episodes. Why on earth was the security so lax around Michael? No one saw him sneak the DVDs out of the medical area? Why was he given a computer in his quarters in the first place? Why weren't there more guards, with drawn weapons, escorting Michael once he knew he was a wraith? And most baffling, why weren't there any guards in his room at the alpha site? Is the only way to drive the plot by making the team look inept? I miss Bates - he would have done things much better.

    -I liked how this episode focused a lot on Michael's POV to keep the viewer out of the loop. I also liked how the spotlight was on characters other than McKay, Shep, and Weir. Teyla really shone in this episode, it really highlighted her compassion and quick thinking when she was captured. Wasn't that impressed with the Heightmeyer scenes - I would have preferred to have more scenes with Michael and Beckett to really emphasize how much this bothered the doctor.

    -I also thought it was odd that Weir would be okay with this project. It would have been nice to see a scene or two where she expressed more doubt and concern. I understand that the character is supposedly getting darker, but it's somewhat hard to believe because it seems so sudden. She did decide to torture Kav in Critical Mass, but in the end of that episode she showed her uncertainly with the decision. In this episode there was none of that and it just felt off.

    -Ye gods, why did anyone let McKay talk to Michael? He truly is awful at bluffing.

    -Also, does the stargate wormhole normally shut down that quickly after it's opened? I thought it stayed open longer than that, which would have allowed Ronon and Shep to also get through.

    -Like caty said, season two's final problem is identical to season one's - the wraith know about Atlantis and they're coming. Good the first time, not so good the second.

  13. #53
    First Lieutenant macktheknife's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasterOnFire
    -Also, does the stargate wormhole normally shut down that quickly after it's opened? I thought it stayed open longer than that, which would have allowed Ronon and Shep to also get through.
    We all know, the stargate's shutdown is variable, depending on what the show needs, it just knows.
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  14. #54
    Captain SmallTimePerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasterOnFire
    -Like caty said, season two's final problem is identical to season one's - the wraith know about Atlantis and they're coming. Good the first time, not so good the second.
    no it is not identical to the first season's situation, dont downplay it just yet . Read the spoilers for allies and inferno...

  15. #55
    Lieutenant General prion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave
    It was a good episode. Not the best one though. This is the season 2 equivalent of "The Gift".
    Yup. And Carl Binder writes good character pieces. He needs to do more episodes. This definitely was a dark episode but a good morality play.

    Of course, now they're royally screwed with the wraith heading their way - again.

  16. #56
    Captain Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    OMG! I loved this episode! I thought it was so interesting that they made Michael, who is after all a Wraith, the more sympathetic character. The whole "you think being a Wraith is a disease" thing was awsome. It's true after all, genocide is genocide and it's not because the Wraith are predators to humans that they are evil.
    I thought it interesting also in that the Atlantians have put part of their humanity aside in order to survive. Will we seen an episode when they realize they may have gone too far? I'd like to see that from Elizabeth's eyes. In a way, she started out as the more 'human' character and it has been degrading with all the tough decisions she's had to make. Like she said, it starts and ends with her. I really loved this episode.

    And Connor Trinneer is a nice adition to the Stargate universe Think we can get Michael and Ishta to meet? Think they'll look familiar to each other?
    May our transmatter beams cross again...

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  17. #57
    Intergalactic Hussy
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    BTW, did anybody figure out what exactly Michael did to Teyla that made her release his restraints? Was it some kind of mind control and if so did it work only because of Teyla's Wraith DNA or would it work on anybody? I'm thinking it's the latter and if that's the case that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms somewhere down the line in regards to Teyla being a liability to Atlantis. I'm surprised that it wasn't addressed in the episode.

  18. #58
    Colonel ToasterOnFire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Quote Originally Posted by macktheknife
    We all know, the stargate's shutdown is variable, depending on what the show needs, it just knows.
    Or maybe the stargates are intelligent...

    *Quick! That big guy with a sword is charging the gate! Shut it down right before he gets there so we can all have a good laugh!*

    Quote Originally Posted by SmallTimePerson
    no it is not identical to the first season's situation, dont downplay it just yet . Read the spoilers for allies and inferno...
    It's sort of different,
    Spoiler:
    the wraith are still coming to kill everyone but this time they're bypassing Atlantis and heading directly for Earth. The wraith internal conflict may also add some twists too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shipperahoy
    BTW, did anybody figure out what exactly Michael did to Teyla that made her release his restraints? Was it some kind of mind control and if so did it work only because of Teyla's Wraith DNA or would it work on anybody? I'm thinking it's the latter and if that's the case that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms somewhere down the line in regards to Teyla being a liability to Atlantis. I'm surprised that it wasn't addressed in the episode.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It was shown in Rising that the wraith queens do have some sort of mind control, as the queen showed when she forced Sumner to kneel. I don't think Teyla's DNA was a factor, since it also works on MW humans. However, I thought that this power was exclusive to hive queens, and I don't think Michael used to be a hive queen (). I guess that means that the mind control power can also be used by your run of the mill male wraith?

  19. #59
    Chief Master Sergeant rhade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    It was an interesting episode but overall the decisions made are bad. Who would want to bring a Wraith to Atlantis turn him human and let him stay in the city, when they know the risks of having him out there considering the drug is extremely experimental and that having him outside an isolated environment is a risk in case something goes wrong or he begins to regress. While the plot was interesting the logic baffles the mind in terms of not keeping him isolated along with the ethical implications of violating a prisioner of war in such a way. It was an interesting idea I just wish the setup to those inital decisions that lead up to the testing were made on more stable ground than it seemed after watching it.

  20. #60
    Second Lieutenant Quinn Mallory's Avatar
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    Default Re: Michael (218)

    Very interesting episode.

    It does raise some moral issue about what the team is trying to do and how they are approaching it. Weir has definitely has some much darker moments in season 2 in this episode and Critical Mass (let's hope we see she has to resolve this with herself at some point in the near future).

    Good to see Dr. Heitmeyer again.

    I thought the Beckett sleeping part was too convenient as well as the obvious stargate shutting off just in time but oh well.

    I like how it ended with Sheppards saying, "We're going to need more fire power." Can't wait again until next week.
    I just love shows about wormholes!

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