Political & Current Event Discussion (Maturity & Mutual Respect Required)

[spg_1983]

Ok this is a continuaion of the discussion that grew out of the thread about President Bush's Speech to the Nation that got closed down. The conversation had grown into a great disucssion of politics and hostory and up till now had been well respectful by both sides of the aisle. Lets start it again and this time since I am starting it I can promise I wont have it shut down as the threads creator just because I dont like how its going. A couple ground rules though:
-Be extra respectful of other posters, it's forum rule and in a thread such as this even more neccesary. rhetorical statements to make a point are ok but do not attack other posters, however political leaders on both sides of the coin are fair game.
-No irrational attacks or irrational support. Do not just say "I love president bush and everything he does, I would do anything for him no matter what he does and I want to have his love children" do not say "I hate bush, he sucks." state your feelings but then say why specifically, otherwise its pointless to post.
-When possible have links to reliable sources to back up assertations you make.

Other than that its fair game, and this doesnt just have to be US politics, I hope our international friends join in and voice their opinions about ours and their politics, it would be a great way to learn more about the politics and political process in other countries.

The debate doesnt have to have a specific main point to stick too, i like to let the debate evolve and move on its own so lets just see how things progress.

Lets start off with something that was in the news today: the USA PATRIOT Act was passed for a 6 months extension today pending a vote to try and make it permanent. What do folks think of the Act? Good? Bad? Constitutional? Unconstitutional?

[BigGator5]

Lets start off with something that was in the news today: the USA PATRIOT Act was passed for a 6 months extension today pending a vote to try and make it permanent. What do folks think of the Act? Good? Bad? Constitutional? Unconstitutional?

Good grief. Do even know about Capital Letters at the beginning of a sentence and how to spell the word, "the"?

Back on subject:

"Sneak-and-Peek" Searches: Overblown

It's true that the PATRIOT Act allows federal authorities to search without immediately notifying the subject. But rarely, and not without a warrant.

It is very Constitutional and the Reauthorization of Patriot Act would have put a 30 day time limit on notification instead of an indefinite time period. Democrats are playing politics on our national security and they should be shot if The Patriot Act dies and there is an attack on US soil.

[Odin's eyes]

So it's good the US can arrest people and put them in jail for the rest of their life without a trial or the accused even finding out what he or she is supposed to have done?

[BigGator5]

So it's good the US can arrest people and put them in jail for the rest of their life without a trial or the accused even finding out what he or she is supposed to have done?

You're talking about enemy combatants?

Americans may be held as 'enemy combatants'

The short end of the answer, yes.

[spg_1983]

[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#008000]Good grief. Do even know about Capital Letters at the beginning of a sentence and how to spell the word, "the"?

who asked you?

It is very Constitutional and the Reauthorization of Patriot Act would have put a 30 day time limit on notification instead of an indefinite time period. Democrats are playing politics on our national security and they should be shot if The Patriot Act dies and there is an attack on US soil.

so because they arent intimidated by the terrorists and dont wish to compromise our most basic beliefs they are playing politics?

[spg_1983]

You're talking about enemy combatants?
The short end of the answer, yes.

So my friend who is of middle eastern descent that was pulled in for questioning and held for 4 days under the patriot act was an enemy combatant? He was born in this country, has never even had a speeding ticket but because he has family still in the middle east he is arrested under the Patriot act? They came and took him from school, they didn't notify his parents, they could have held him indefinately, yet he has done nothing wrong. The only reason anyone even knew they had taken him was because i was with him at the time that the Homeland Security goons came and got him. His family came to this country because of the ideals and freedoms we supposedly live by and believe in. The Patriot Act takes the constitution and turn it into toilet paper.

[FeloniousMonk]

I hate Bush and I want to have his love children.

You're talking about enemy combatants?

Americans may be held as 'enemy combatants'

The short end of the answer, yes.

Sieg heil, indeed, comrade.

[spg_1983]

I hate Bush and I want to have his love children.

Thank you my friend, I just had the best chuckle I've had all day.

[Odin's eyes]

I'm not talking about "enemy combatants" and I can come back to that a bit later in the post.
I'm talking about the fact the Patriot Act allows the goverment to arrest anyone and not tell them why and then putting them in jail without any time restrictions on how long they can be there before a trial. And all simply by calling them a terrorist. If you think they have to find someone in Iraq or Afganisthan shooting at the US military to do that you're mistaken.

Now on the matter of this "enemy combatants" or "illegal combatants" as it's really called...
It's a pile of crap!(sorry for the language) It's just a way to strip people from the basic human rights so they can keep them locked up and torture them all they want. The US administration invented the term for that purpose alone.
Don't tell me that people fighting on the opposing side of a war fighting are illegal just becuase they're on the other side.
That would make them prisoners of war and allow them certain rights but then the US couldn't torture them and torture, as we know, is the only way to get information from a nobody caught in a battle.
If you think they have any information of value let me ask you this: A US soldier is captured and the other side wants to find out where George Bush is having dinner a week from now so they can capture him. Does the soldier know this vital peice of information?
Or does he know what the General in charge of the area plans to do a month from now?
Information from prisoners can't be trusted even when it's offered without any torture. With it the information is useless beucase it takes a very long time just to find out if what was said is true or just a way for the soldier to say something for the torture to stop. By that time any info is already old and obsolete.


Ahh... good rant.

[FeloniousMonk]

So my friend who is of middle eastern descent that was pulled in for questioning and held for 4 days under the patriot act was an enemy combatant? He was born in this country, has never even had a speeding ticket but because he has family still in the middle east he is arrested under the Patriot act? They came and took him from school, they didn't notify his parents, they could have held him indefinately, yet he has done nothing wrong. The only reason anyone even knew they had taken him was because i was with him at the time that the Homeland Security goons came and got him. His family came to this country because of the ideals and freedoms we supposedly live by and believe in. The Patriot Act takes the constitution and turn it into toilet paper.

It's rare to meet someone who has been directly affected by these laws or knows those that have. I know two. One of which owned a clothing store in North Carolina with a friend of mine. He'd lived in the US since before his first birthday yet was deported because a second cousin or something that he'd never met along with the majority of that side of his family, had possible links to al Queda. He was eventually allowed back into the US but his business failed because he wasn't there to run it.

Another friend ran a private security firm in Orlando and Tampa. He was brought in for questioning and his name was tranished simply because he spent a couple decades in the Mossad and had come in contact with some suspected terrorists over the years. This man has been a US citizen for longer than I have been alive, he's paid taxes, has no criminal record, and has time after time risked his own life to protect not only celebrities and businessmen but local, state, and federal politicians.

Both of these guys got screwed over simply because of possible connections and have no legal recourse. Both of which were detained without probable cause and warrants weren't even issued until after they had been released. But even when a law enforcement organizations does act illegally even under the Patriot Act, there are quite a number of other pieces of legislation that protect them from facing the consequences.

Protecting our nation is one of our biggest priorities and should in fact be on the mind of every single elected official, law enforcement officer, and member of the armed forces. But that protection should NEVER infringe upon the rights of the people being protected.

[FeloniousMonk]

For those that haven't actually read the full text of the Patriot Act, I highly suggest you do before debating on it.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...:H.R.3162.ENR:

[BigGator5]

No, they are intimidated by the terrorists. Bush said it best:

President's Address to the Nation

...it has led some to ask if we are creating more problems than we're solving.

That is an important question, and the answer depends on your view of the war on terror. If you think the terrorists would become peaceful if only America would stop provoking them, then it might make sense to leave them alone.

[snip]

September the 11th, 2001 required us to take every emerging threat to our country seriously, and it shattered the illusion that terrorists attack us only after we provoke them. On that day, we were not in Iraq, we were not in Afghanistan, but the terrorists attacked us anyway -- and killed nearly 3,000 men, women, and children in our own country. My conviction comes down to this: We do not create terrorism by fighting the terrorists. We invite terrorism by ignoring them.

Again, I have showed you an article that describes that so-called "Sneak-and-Peek" Searches have been done for decades. Why are you complaining now?

Whatever Odin's eyes and FeloniousMonk. You are minimizing terrorists and the threat they pose. We cannot afford to let our guard down for even a minute. We did that once and we all know what happen then.

What will you guys say, if the Patriot Act dies and a terrorist on US soil happens?

I will blame all you guys, Democrats and all.

[Three PhDs]

Good grief. Do even know about Capital Letters at the beginning of a sentence and how to spell the word, "the"?

Back on subject:

If you're going to pick up someone on their grammar, at least do it in a post that shows a little grammatical knowledge itself. You people just really don't have any style.

It is very Constitutional and the Reauthorization of Patriot Act would have put a 30 day time limit on notification instead of an indefinite time period. Democrats are playing politics on our national security and they should be shot if The Patriot Act dies and there is an attack on US soil.

The Patriot Act would have the founding fathers of the US turning in their graves. Maybe being an American you don't see that cause it's in your country, and you only see American news etc, but from an outside perspective, America is not a very nice country right now. This detaining of people indefinitely etc, rendition to strip away any legal protection someone might have, it just leaves me staring in disbelief when an American can't understand why they're so unpopular at the moment.

You want to end terror? Stop invading Muslim countries, stop vetoing any condemnation of Israel in the UN, stop providing Israel with the means to attack the Palestinians, condemn Israel for the illegal wall it is building along the West Bank, stop interfering in the matters of other sovereign states, stop acting like the world policeman, start showing some respect to other countries, start listening to foreign opinion, try or release everyone in Guantanamo Bay, stop producing annual reports from the State Department which criticise other countries for their poor record on Human Rights when your own country holds people with no charge indefinitely and also explicitly practices rendition to strip away any legal protection of rights a suspect might have. I could go on, but I hope this is enough for you to get the point.

September the 11th, 2001 required us to take every emerging threat to our country seriously, and it shattered the illusion that terrorists attack us only after we provoke them. On that day, we were not in Iraq, we were not in Afghanistan, but the terrorists attacked us anyway -- and killed nearly 3,000 men, women, and children in our own country. My conviction comes down to this: We do not create terrorism by fighting the terrorists. We invite terrorism by ignoring them.

Oh, and if you think that September the 11th was unprovoked, you're seriously deluded about the things your country has been doing.

[spg_1983]

No, they are intimidated by the terrorists. Bush said it best:

any change as a reaction to terrorism is allowing them to win. terrists and terrorism by disrupting our way of life. by creating the Patriot Act the terrorists win.

Whatever Odin's eyes and FeloniousMonk. You are minimizing terrorists and the threat they pose. We cannot afford to let our guard down for even a minute. We did that once and we all know what happen then.

ah yes lets go back to 9/11, it is uncle georges favorite fall back excuse. yes it was a tragic event. yes it is unfortunate that it happened. by by compromising our values we are letting the terrorist win and dishonoring the memory of those that were killed. Is that what you want? to let the terrorists win?

What will you guys say, if the Patriot Act dies and a terrorist on US soil happens?

Patriot Act or no Patriot Act, if they are truly determined it is going to happen. All the Patriot Act does is further their cause and inspire them while undermining our society and weakening public support.

I will blame all you guys, Democrats and all.[/color][/font]

and I'll blame the free traing ground we have provided for them in Iraq.

[BigGator5]

If you're going to pick up someone on their grammar, at least do it in a post that shows a little grammatical knowledge itself. You people just really don't have any style.

At least I try, what's his excuse?

This detaining of people indefinitely etc, rendition to strip away any legal protection someone might have, it just leaves me staring in disbelief when an American can't understand why they're so unpopular at the moment.

I rather be unpopular and alive, than popular and dead.

That is what it all boils down too, no? Bush is not out to win a popularity contest, he's out to protect us.