The Hive (211)

[DetriusXii]

The Wraith beat the Go'uld in a race to become comical villians. One single dart was all that it took for the Wraith to start fighting each other. There must not exist defective drones or darts in the Wraith population. And the thought never occured to the queens that the humans were up to something when the Daedelus was in clear view and being fired upon. And if a Wraith explosion could take out another Hive ship, why not move the freaking ships away from each other while firing. Enemies of the Ancients, my ass.

We're just going to have to accept it. The Wraith are written to be stupid. They don't farm or clone humans. They haven't tried repairing their human digestive system or finding an alternate food source. They believe that Sheppard is a servant of another queen even though he doesn't wear the tacky clothing of the Pegasus humans and speaks in a dialect very alien to the Pegasus humans and unrestricted language by not being in servitude to a Wraith. They fight over what could have been a freak accident, the firepower of the Wraith darts is set to minimum most of the time, and they're strip mining their human populated worlds so that there will be no one left to keep them well fed after they fight back the humans, which I don't think is possible right now since they're just so damn stupid.

[AutumnDream]

Argh. I've been defending the episode, but Ouroboros is totally right. I wasexpecting more, and it did seem like a big collection of scenes tied together rather than a continuous episode, for some reason. There were a lot of things that should have been addressed but weren't. I hope Carl Binder reads this and gets some good constructive feedback from it. I know he's a professional writer, but everyone can learn a thing or two, and it's pretty clear there were some oversights. He sure is king of the funny episodes though, with the exception of Duet.

Detrius, keep in mind that had the Wraith actually stayed awake to do any of that stuff they probably would have starved to death. Good thing too, because it'd suck to have come to Pegasus with the Wraith 10,000 years more advanced than they already are. o.O;

(Let's not give up on the wraith just yet, eh? Remember Brad Wright planned a lot about Atlantis before it even started, and I can't imagine him not having made up some really intriguing stuff about them.)

[lily]

Sometimes I wonder whether we all are watching the same show (the same happens with SG-1). I always watch an epi and end up with the feeling "wow, what a great episode!" and I can't honestly think how anybody else would think that epi was less than a very very good episode... Then I come here and usually find people saying that this was a mediocre episode, or dissapointing or things like that.

Oh, well, the world would be such a boring place otherwise

For me, IMHO, this was an excellent episode. I had re-watched "The storm"/"The eye" the same day, and I think "The lost boys"/"The hive" are at least as good as "The storm"/"The eye" or even better.

Personally, I don't care whether or not something is cliche. Lots of cliches still work for me. And I didn't find anything in this episode that didn't work or dissapointed me. Maybe a 3 parter would have been better, to have enough time to explain some stuff better, or to follow up some stuff, such as the Wraith Queen leaving suddenly without feeding on poor Shep. But I still give this episode 5 stars out of 5. The same as all the episodes of season 2 so far.

Some highlights, IMHO:

- McKay. Excellent. All the way starting when we can see his indecision about taking the enzyhm up to when we see his face when he realizes that Sheppard is alive and is the one who is on one of the darts.

- Sheppard. Gotta watch the episode again to give more details, but I loved every second of his screen time. *sigh*

- Ford. Very good acting. Hope we see him in season 3. I think the ending was left vague enough so we can be sure that he's alive and he can return as a recurring character in future seasons

- Ronon and his knives. That was absolutely hilarious.

I might come up with more after watching the epi more times

[ToasterOnFire]

After watching the ep, I'm afraid I have to put myself with the fans who were let down with the show. Storm/Eye had a fabulous sense of urgency and suspense with the impending death of numerous characters, but TLB/Hive really failed on those aspects. I never was at the edge of my seat, many of the scenes seemed rushed, and the truck-sized plotholes were distracting.

-I'm so disappointed with the wraith now. They just try to be scary and end up comical with their hissing and teeth baring. The setup with the queens and their tension wasn't handled very well. I think the writers are trying to make the wraith seem mysterious but they ended up just confusing me.

-I thought that McKay's overdose and subsequent babbling were a nice mix of hero!Rodney and scaredcrapless!Rodney. That mix is hard to pull off, so bravo to the writer, director, and David for that.

-Teyla and Ronan had some nice scenes together. Shep had some nice ones too with the wraith and I liked his clown lines. I wanted to see more about Ford, but it seemed like he was thrown into the background. If that's the last of Ford I'm going to be most disappointed.

-The whole "hot girl who throws herself at Shep" thing is getting old, but it appears it's merely a taste of what's to come. Bummer.

-Wow, Weir and Caldwell actually seemed to get along. FINALLY. More of that, please.

[srg]

Sometimes I wonder whether we all are watching the same show (the same happens with SG-1). I always watch an epi and end up with the feeling "wow, what a great episode!" and I can't honestly think how anybody else would think that epi was less than a very very good episode... Then I come here and usually find people saying that this was a mediocre episode, or dissapointing or things like that.

This is why I don't go anywhere near the episode discussion threads. I'm in the same boat as you (less so with S9 though). I Just enjoy it for what it is.

[AutumnDream]

Heyhey! This is only the second hot girl to throw herself at Shep, and this time it wasn't even sincere. And I thought we all agreed to never talk about that... other time.

I didn't like how the Wraith bothered to answer Sheppard. At first I thought something weird was up that was making them more talkative, but I guess not. I liked how in Rising they just came in all shrouded in the shadows, threw whomever was in the way across the room, and left without a word. Maybe different hives all have different attitudes. I mean, it's unreasonable to expect every human to have the same attitude.

[Teal'c]

About the "shooting the door control to open it" thing:

Give me Ronon's gun. I go to any door in my university that you have to swipe a card to open. I shoot the swiper with Ronon's gun. Boom! Electromagnet in door is switched off due to a highly broken circuit. Door opens.

[Easter Lily]

Sometimes I wonder whether we all are watching the same show (the same happens with SG-1). I always watch an epi and end up with the feeling "wow, what a great episode!" and I can't honestly think how anybody else would think that epi was less than a very very good episode... Then I come here and usually find people saying that this was a mediocre episode, or dissapointing or things like that.

I'm with you fellow Lily... I was mystified by all the criticism myself... I liked this episode more than I liked The Lost Boys... which was far more grating in some ways.
I suppose people were expecting explosions and lots of kickass action but I just take it as it comes.

[Yeade]

Okay! So, I was a total geek and watched the episode again. A few comments before I reply to the new stuff.

Ouroboros, you called it with Ford and the P90, and I take back my assertion that Ford had a Wraith stunner. I caught the P90 this time around, two vests (with ammo), a handgun, and Ronon's miniature cannon. Ford did have a Wraith pistol stunner that he passed to Ronon, but that was during the earlier escape attempt.

Also, paying closer attention to the timing during the end battle, Sheppard didn't even wait until the hives started firing upon each other to break off. After that first strafing run, in a wide shot that follows, a few darts broke off to pursue Sheppard away from the hive he was attacking and off the screen toward, presumably, the stargate. That gives him yet more time to escape before the hives explode.

In addition, there were a few shots in the sequence that I thought might have stood in for a bit of time passage. Namely the wide shots of the hives engaging each other and all the darts being diverted away from culling the planet to dogfight.

And what I thought was the stargate on a display McKay looked at was, in fact, the Deddy. So, I have no clue where the stargate might be except that it was in space somewhere near enough for Sheppard to scram through before the hives exploded or shortly thereafter.

Part of what I was trying to say was alot of aircraft seem to have simular functions so if a person has enough skills they may be able to figure things out. I don't think you have to have a magic gene to fly a dart. Why would the wraith have to worry about making some special key to start the dart.

No doubt Sheppard applied his mad pilot smarts to figure out the weapons joystick and the HUD--I already said as much. I'm more concerned that, if I could borrow AutumnDream's phrasing, no one showed Sheppard which button did what. McKay did not do that. He and Jace installed a computer touchscreen interface over the dart's main control console, and this is where Sheppard entered commands like "rematerialize cargo? yes or no?" That computer did more than translate the Wraith on the HUD.

On my rewatch, I (obsessively) studied the single scene where the camera pans across the dart controls to Sheppard.



Sheppard's right hand is resting on what looks like specially carved grooves for just that purpose on the side of the dart. What that controls is anyone's guess, but I think it's interesting that it reminds me of the gel handrests on the Ancient control chairs. Besides that, there's the joystick, which has a pretty obvious button thing on top to fire weapons. The question is whether the joystick doubles as flight control. If it doesn't, how is Sheppard flying the dart? If it does, how is Sheppard targeting? A stylish black bracket is obviously moving from target to target to hive ship on the HUD.

Automatic depending on where the dart is pointed? Perhaps, perhaps not.

The most puzzling thing, of course, is the main console. IIRC, McKay and Jace's computer interface was placed right over it, so this is the first time Sheppard's even seen the controls. I don't know about you, but the controls look a lot like random lights, and Sheppard figured out--successfully, on the first try--how to work at least the culling beam from this panel. Sheppard was worried whether it would work or not but--god, that's some luck!

As for the Wraith tech requiring some biological key, this is something I admit I loosely interpreted from canon. I follow the idea through because I think it puts a different spin on things, and I see nothing in canon that directly contradicts it.

Teyla's beacon necklace implies that the Wraith are not only aware of the ATA gene but are capable of constructing a device that detects it and activates despite not having the gene themselves. I figure it's only a short hop from there to incorporating something similar into their own technology, and the Wraith have been shown as perfectly willing to take and adapt Ancient tech for their own purposes.

Even if the Wraith thought a biological tech key would be useless fluff--and I could believe this, as overall they don't seem too concerned about security, though this might very well have been different during their war with the Ancients--given the Wraith psychic abilities and aforementioned tendency to steal Ancient tech, I have no trouble seeing the Wraith tech operate with a mental/emotional interface. Which then begs the question of how Sheppard, a human, managed to work an alien system. Or get an alien system to work with him.

For me, it's not so much a matter of why the Wraith would bother but whether Wraith technology would naturally develop this way given what we know of and have seen of the Wraith thus far.

In much the same way that we continually try to streamline our own tech to better fit our physical, mental, emotional, and social needs, I think it's entirely possible to the point where I find it hard to picture otherwise.

Though I could also be imagining things.

Who's to say the super drug doesn't wear off faster, like hours instead of days. You could even explain it that it wears of faster when you do a lot of physical activity or when you're under stress. These things all raise the metabolism so it wouldn't be totally unbelievable at all. Failing that they could even have had the Wraith inject them with something to counter the drug.

I can't quite see the Wraith having something to counter the enzyme as it's crucial to keeping their food alive during the feeding process--developing a chemical blocker would be rather self-defeating. (No snarky comments about how something that stupid seems like just the kind of thing the Wraith would do! ) A good point about physical activity burning the enzyme off faster though... However, I think many might feel cheated of the expected difficult drug withdrawal if it were any faster or easier.

Wow we're really trying hard here huh. You know you can just admit it.

LOL! What can I say? I try. It's what I do.

We both know there is no good reason why [Teyla] didn't squirm through those giant gaps. She's demonstrated extreme physical prowess and dexterity in the past. This should have been kids stuff for her.

Actually, rewatching the episode, I got the impression that the gaps were a lot smaller than they appear on the caps. There's quite a bit of distortion because of the perspective and distances involved. So... I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. I truly believe it would've been difficult, if not outright impossible, to squeeze Teyla safely through those bars, and you believe it would've been a great deal easier. If only we had someone on set to provide us with actual dimensions! (Geeky wishful thinking! )

What character moments though. That was actually another gripe I had. The first part had the start of a great bit of character development for Ford and in this one he was pretty much just ignored. I mean he makes a heroic escape from 5 armed Wraith and they don't even show it.

Only, you see, Ford's heroic escape would've boiled down to so-and-so many minutes of action. It's already character development that we and the other characters know Ford made the heroic escape and came to Sheppard's rescue only to make the heroic last stand. Showing it would've appeased people like you and me and IWantToBelieve about the logistics, but I don't think it's strictly necessary for "character development." With limited time and such a large cast, I think certain scenes had to be conveyed by telling. It's just unfortunate that telling doesn't have the same impact or clarity as showing.

Also, regarding Ford, on my rewatch, Sheppard's argument with the Wraith as Ford was taken away jumped out. Sheppard yelled that Ford was sick, and the only reply he got was "we know" or something to that effect. Neera then helpfully adds that Ford was being taken to a cocoon so that he may be kept alive. And this in the context of Kanayo's earlier death is more support for the cocooning having something to do with Ford's survival and recovery.

The Wraith beat the Go'uld in a race to become comical villians. One single dart was all that it took for the Wraith to start fighting each other.

At this point, while I've been frustrated with the Wraith acting in ways that require a lot of fast explaining, I do agree with AutumnDream that we still have too little information on the Wraith to make final judgments. I'm not sure I trust TPTB to spend as much time thinking about the Wraith as I do--just as I'm wary of any romance--but I'm willing to wait and see.

Finally, lily, srg, Easter Lily, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed watching "The Hive," and I loved many of the little moments people have been mentioning, laughed at all the funny spots, and much appreciated teh pretty. It's mostly out of love for my show that I spend so much time untangling the nasty plot snarls and other details that, in the end, were probably never intended to be picked at.

I'm the type, I suppose, that can't help but analyze. And I want SGA to make sense because I love it so.

I take SGA as it is and as it could be.

That said, I'm actually pretty forgiving about all these little details. I have a lot of fun discussing them with others, and I do try to come up with viable solutions, but I always try to keep in mind that the cast and crew probably don't have the time to worry about most of these. While I'll always hope the logical kinks can be ironed out, and I note when there are problems, I definitely don't let it interfere with my squee and support of the series.

So, Ouroboros and IWantToBelieve, as exasperating as it might be that fans often have to step in and fill the plotholes, I wouldn't expect anything else so long as TPTB actually have to air SGA and other shows week after week. And, as a fan, I'm more than willing to provide constructive criticism as long as I can for my own personal peace of mind and in hopes that TPTB will note someone's concerned about this-or-that. I don't much mind the work really.


edit: analysis of end battle, minor rewording

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[GatetheWay]

Can some explain why, in the begining of the ep, the queen ripped Sheppard's jacket? What was the point? And by the end of the ep the rip dissapeared.

[Yeade]

I thought the hive queen just, uh, flicked Sheppard's jacket over his shoulder. To put a little fear into him probably. Which, if Sheppard's expression as he shrugs his jacket back into place is anything to go by, worked pretty well.

[watcher652]

You know, I wonder if the writers sometimes put in these plot holes because they know the fans are going to obsess and talk about it more than if the whole thing just flowed!

Anyway, I don't know if it's been said, but McKay really ended up taking that enzyme overdose for nothing. Yes, he did make his escape back to Atlantis, but he didn't accomplish what he set out to do, which was to rescue Sheppard, Teyla and Ronan. In fact, he had to suffer through another one of those "Oh my god, Sheppard's dead!" moments. What is that, the fourth time, if we count the "almost good as dead" ones? I'm counting

Spoiler:

Thirty Eight Minutes, The Siege and Conversion as the other ones.

If McKay had just sat tight, Sheppard would have made it back and rescued him, presuming Sheppard had the address to Ford's planet. I can't believe Ford would have withheld that piece of info from Sheppard.

Of course the point is that McKay cared enough to put himself at risk to save his team, even though it didn't work out that way. It was the thought that counted.

I missed having the scene right after the one where the team, minus McKay, walk through the wormhole back to Atlantis. At that point, as far as Sheppard, Teyla and Ronan were concerned, McKay was still being held captive by Ford's people. Instead of smiling at Weir and cracking a joke, I would have rather have Sheppard say that they needed to get a strike team together to rescue McKay. And then seeing the relief in the team's eyes when Weir tells them that McKay is all right. That was the unseen next scene, I'm sure.

Of course, we had to wait until the Daedalus was back at Atlantis and McKay and Cadwell were in the infirmary before we got an answer to McKay's "Why aren't you dead?" In real life, I think we would have had the explanation over the radio.

I wonder how far away the 2 hive ships were and how long it took to get there.

I simply have to stop thinking about this show!

[AutumnDream]

Coming to the episode thread and talking and debating about it is how I tide myself over till' the next episode. Atlantis is my "enzyme" and I'm in withdrawl. I feel so sorry for all the American fans.

Okay! So, I was a total geek and watched the episode again. A few comments before I reply to the new stuff.

Huh? You mean it's not normal to watch it again?

No doubt Sheppard applied his mad pilot smarts to figure out the weapons joystick and the HUD---I already said as much. I'm more concerned that, if I could borrow AutumnDream's phrasing, no one showed Sheppard which button did what. McKay did not do that. He and Jace installed a computer touchscreen interface over the dart's main control console, and this is where Sheppard entered commands like "rematerialize cargo? yes or no?" That computer did more than translate the Wraith on the HUD.

I kinda figured that off-screen McKay told him, "This does this, put your hand here, follow the instructions." I shouldn't assume like that, but...

Even if the Wraith thought a biological tech key would be useless fluff---and I could believe this, as overall they don't seem too concerned about security, though this might very well have been different during their war with the Ancients---given the Wraith psychic abilities and aforementioned tendency to steal Ancient tech, I have no trouble seeing the Wraith tech operate with a mental/emotional interface. Which then begs the question of how Sheppard, a human, managed to work an alien system. Or get an alien system to work with him.

I think his "conversion" left him with a little "gift" of his own.

In much the same way that we continually try to streamline our own tech to better fit our physical, mental, emotional, and social needs, I think it's entirely possible to the point where I find it hard to picture otherwise.

Oh yeah. We know how psychically inclined the Wraith and Ancients are. I too have little doubt there'd be a mental component.

Also, regarding Ford, on my rewatch, Sheppard's argument with the Wraith as Ford was taken away jumped out. Sheppard yelled that Ford was sick, and the only reply he got was "we know" or something to that effect. Neera then helpfully adds that Ford was being taken to a cocoon so that he may be kept alive. And this in the context of Kanayo's earlier death is more support for the cocooning having something to do with Ford's survival and recovery.

Remember, Ford took some more enzyme on the ship and Kanayo presumably didn't have any since before they left the cave. That easily explains why he died and Ford still had some fight in him. I don't think Ford was quite as bad as he looked when he was laying on the ground. We saw Ronan in a smiliar state, laying down all sweaty, but he sort of braced himself and got up for more action. With the extra enzyme Ford took, I think it's at least plausible that he could pull some fancy moves on the wraith who took him away.

At this point, while I've been frustrated with the Wraith acting in ways that require a lot of fast explaining, I do agree with AutumnDream that we still have too little information on the Wraith to make final judgments.

And that in itself just adds to the mystery of the wraith, too! Oh yeah, I can't remember who said it, but they said that the wraith never tried cloning humans or whatever. But we do know that they are scientifically inclined from how they tried to make genetic alterations to humans.

[deathbed1983]

all in all....this was a pretty good epidsode...i enjoyed it

[Yeade]

You know, I wonder if the writers sometimes put in these plot holes because they know the fans are going to obsess and talk about it more than if the whole thing just flowed!

God, I hope not.

Anyway, I don't know if it's been said, but McKay really ended up taking that enzyme overdose for nothing. Yes, he did make his escape back to Atlantis, but he didn't accomplish what he set out to do, which was to rescue Sheppard, Teyla and Ronan. In fact, he had to suffer through another one of those "Oh my god, Sheppard's dead!" moments. What is that, the fourth time, if we count the "almost good as dead" ones?

My first thought was "Sheppard is so high-maintenance but the hawtness and adorkableness probably makes up for it," lol.

Moving on, I actually thought the way this whole mess worked out for McKay was both touching and heartbreaking. The man overcomes his sense of self to do something that's incredibly dangerous on behalf of his missing teammates, pushes himself through recovery and to go on the rescue mission, only to arrive in time to be unable to do anything but watch while the people he was trying to save get vaporized. The Deddy, too, didn't turn out to be much of a help.

So, I'd say in my perfect world, there would have been a few short scenes of everybody feeling like crap on the long hyperspace trip back to Atlantis about not being good enough to save Sheppard, Teyla, and Ronon despite intentions. An irrational but painfully human reaction.

I missed having the scene right after the one where the team, minus McKay, walk through the wormhole back to Atlantis. At that point, as far as Sheppard, Teyla and Ronan were concerned, McKay was still being held captive by Ford's people.

Well, again in my perfect world, the address Sheppard dialed to escape the destruction of the hives was Ford's hideout. He rematerialized Ronon and Teyla, frantically waited for the two to regain consciousness, then the three of them went to rescue McKay, god help anyone who stands in their way.

Only to find McKay had rescued himself, lol. In a nice mirror, I just realized, to McKay's situation at the end of the episode.

I like this about SGA. That it seems like, nine times out of ten, everyone ends up saving themselves. Of course, the way this happens usually leads to me breaking my brain trying to reason my way through things, but I like the principle anyways.

Of course, we had to wait until the Daedalus was back at Atlantis and McKay and Cadwell were in the infirmary before we got an answer to McKay's "Why aren't you dead?" In real life, I think we would have had the explanation over the radio.

Question: Can the Deddy be contacted by radio while in hyperspace?

If not, the end of the episode happened within a very short period of time. The Deddy had already arrived in-system and is beginning the final approach to Atlantis while on the radio updating Weir about when the search was stopped. Sheppard, Teyla, and Ronon gate in--everybody on Atlantis is elated, and Beckett rushes all three to the infirmary. Meanwhile, the Deddy finishes landing, gets the news that Sheppard and the others are alive, and McKay (the woobie!) and Caldwell don't bother waiting for updates over the radio because they can run down to the infirmary and get everything in person.

I wonder how far away the 2 hive ships were and how long it took to get there.

At the start of the episode, the hive ships are a few or several days--I can't remember the exact wording there--from the planet. I think Kanayo drops that time reference, and I'm pretty certain he didn't say "a couple days." More than two days then. That, however, doesn't tell us how long it took the Deddy to make the trip from Atlantis to the planet and back. My gut feeling is several hours though. No longer than half a day.

As I wrote in some previous post, I think the events of "The Hive" can be stretched over a period of three or four days, five if pushed. The pacing, I think, suffers because everything from Sheppard's second talk with the hive queen to the end takes place over only the last day or less of that long, long timeframe.

I simply have to stop thinking about this show!

I know what you mean! I'm stalking this thread!

Huh? You mean it's not normal to watch it again?

I can usually manage to wait a week.

I think his "conversion" left him with a little "gift" of his own.

I'll let you in on a secret. I think so, too. What do you want to bet maybe Beckett lied about Sheppard's DNA being 100% back to normal? Ah, hope springs eternal.

Remember, Ford took some more enzyme on the ship and Kanayo presumably didn't have any since before they left the cave.

...oh, crap. You know what that means?

The timeline is more screwed up than even I thought!

Teyla, Ronon, and Kanayo would've been coming off the enzyme before Ford, but IIRC those scenes were cut together. Argh! I'm going to have to watch the whole thing again! The torture!


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