Deep Space 9 Superior

[sueKay]

DS9 isn't my favourite trek, but I agree that that was when Star Trek was at the top of it's game.

[the Fifth Race]

It wasn't just darker than other Treks, but it allowed the darkness to get inside the main characters in a way that its predecessors had only allowed to happen when there was mind-affecting alien tech or possession involved. Worf seemed to flourish as a character in that environment. In TNG he'd always been expected to behave as a human, and he'd be congratulated whenever his human upbringing was allowed to take over and chastised when his much darker klingon traits emerged. In DS9 he was allowed to be a klingon. I liked Jake too, because after Wesley it was unexpected to have a teenager who seldom if ever saves the day and who doesn't even particularly want to.

It also felt much more dynamic in terms of character structure. I know that apart from Dax and Worf there were no major main cast changes, but the characters themselves had more room to change and grow, because the ever-growing importance of the space station and the ever-increasing responsibilities involved with its operation gave each character an excuse to stick around the same place for seven years. TNG never rung quite true because it was harder to believe in Riker and Data staying on the enterprise as #2 and #3 rather than moving to a command on a smaller ship or even a level transfer. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that no other Trek had such a large supporting cast as DS9, and there's nothing like a big pool of minor characters to add verisimilitude. Some of the minor players like Winn and Dukat and Garak and Rom got more development and meatier stories than other shows give to the main cast. That was good.

Sisko should have gone bald sooner. He was a bit bland until he got shaved, and after that he got better and better . But even that is perhaps one of the show's strenghts - maybe it was Sisko's tardiness in coming to the fore that allowed the other characters to all make their mark early on and distinctively. Each of them had a unique voice and a defined role. And proper stories, not like Hoshi or Geordi.

I did like pre-DS9 Trek very much, but I saw it as a very allegorical show. Stuff with Q, or with those "I'm black and white, he's white and black" aliens was never at all believable. It was fable and fantasy, excellent and inventive. But DS9 felt realistic. Not real, just realistic.

I agree that Worf came into his own on DS9 more so than he ever did on TNG!, and the point you make about the storyline delving into the whole Klingon/Federation relationship head first really gave Worf and some other great Klingon characters (Martok and Goran in paticular) a chance to shine.

LOL...on Sisko going bald, it reminded me of when Sisko (Averry Brooks) played Hawk on the great early 80's show with Robert Urrich 'Spencer for hire'.

The show did have a Babylon 5 feel to it (not all seasons but a few), which in my opinion is a very good thing!.

I did'nt really care to much for all the Ferengi epsiodes throughout the series, I did enjoy Quark and Armann Shimmerman is an outstanding actor!. But they seemed to cartoonish and bumbling. But after buying all the seasons on DVD and re-watching them more than few times over. I saw the beauty of the Feregi characters and changed my mind about them completely. Some of the best DS9 episodes invloved Quark and Odo.

[Perriman33]

I preferred DS9 because of the storyline and the contiuation of each episode.My friend prefers TNG mainly because you can watch the episodes in any order.
The cast were great as well in DS9 with loads of different relationships to focus episodes on (the chief and the Dr being one of my faves). And because the cast weren't all shipmates fighting for the same side it made it interesting when the action started. And the battles were on a huge scale with whole fleets kicking ass.
And I think we saw more of the politics and backgrounds of the startrek alien races which was missing from the TNG. You gotta love picard though, cool as a cucumber!

[Darth Buddha]

In terms of science fiction ideas, DS9 was not actually that strong.

The original series, with silicone life forms (the Horta), alternate universes (the Mirror Universe), etc. really was strong in that area. So too was TNG with lots of questions about when does artificial life get rights, closed time loops (Yesterday's Enterprise), techno-organic life (the Borg), and so on.

But DS9 beat them all with characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings. While it took advantage of many of the earlier introduced science fiction ideas (the Mirror Universe, etc.), it didn't really impress me with new innovations or expanding the concepts. But no other Trek was more of an ensemble performance, and no Trek had better recurring characters.

A pity that the subsequent Trek's couldn't learn from DS9 and try to bring more of the science fiction back to the show. Voyager and Enterprise didn't manage to do either the science fiction or the arc/characterization bit, though in Season 4, Enterprise DID start to find a balance between arc and stand alone episodes.

[the Fifth Race]

In terms of science fiction ideas, DS9 was not actually that strong.

The original series, with silicone life forms (the Horta), alternate universes (the Mirror Universe), etc. really was strong in that area. So too was TNG with lots of questions about when does artificial life get rights, closed time loops (Yesterday's Enterprise), techno-organic life (the Borg), and so on.

But DS9 beat them all with characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings. While it took advantage of many of the earlier introduced science fiction ideas (the Mirror Universe, etc.), it didn't really impress me with new innovations or expanding the concepts. But no other Trek was more of an ensemble performance, and no Trek had better recurring characters.

A pity that the subsequent Trek's couldn't learn from DS9 and try to bring more of the science fiction back to the show. Voyager and Enterprise didn't manage to do either the science fiction or the arc/characterization bit, though in Season 4, Enterprise DID start to find a balance between arc and stand alone episodes.

Amen Darth!...as usual you hit the nail on the head with your take.

I agree that there were and are better pure scifi shows, but I totally agree that DS9's characterization and especially the surroundings, not to mention a great stroyline/scripts/and actors made DS9 standout even by todays standards. DS9 did alternate reality and even time travel better than any other scifi shows that come to mind. As far as the stand alone episodes go, DS9 had there share of great ones in the earlier seasons.

[warmbeachbrat]

In terms of science fiction ideas, DS9 was not actually that strong.

The original series, with silicone life forms (the Horta), alternate universes (the Mirror Universe), etc. really was strong in that area. So too was TNG with lots of questions about when does artificial life get rights, closed time loops (Yesterday's Enterprise), techno-organic life (the Borg), and so on.

But DS9 beat them all with characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings. While it took advantage of many of the earlier introduced science fiction ideas (the Mirror Universe, etc.), it didn't really impress me with new innovations or expanding the concepts. But no other Trek was more of an ensemble performance, and no Trek had better recurring characters.

A pity that the subsequent Trek's couldn't learn from DS9 and try to bring more of the science fiction back to the show. Voyager and Enterprise didn't manage to do either the science fiction or the arc/characterization bit, though in Season 4, Enterprise DID start to find a balance between arc and stand alone episodes.

A Trek with innovative sci-fi ideas, strong characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings? Now THAT would be a great series! I guess the only thing I would add would be some "sense of wonder" or exploration.

Until Enterprise, Deep Space Nine was the only Trek series I did not watch. I caught a few episodes, but I guess it was a little too dark and gloomy for me. And I really did enjoy the "to boldly go where no man has gone before," of the other Trek series. I guess I have an overly-optimistic nature, so DS9 just didn't resonate with me. I'm sorry for it now, because I would like to see all of the episodes, but I don't think they're airing in my community.

TNG was my favorite with Voyager close behind (why all the hatred of Voyager? I don't get it). At this point, with no Trek on the horizon, I would dearly love to catch up with DS9. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait for the syndication ptb to catch up to me.

[Madeleine]

Why all the hatred of Voyager? It lacked the vision and creativity of TOS. It lacked the fascinating and dynamic inter-character dynamics that were a staple of DS9. It lacked the memorable one-offs that TNG did so well. It lacked the multidimensional universe of DS9. It lacked a decent supporting ensemble.

And it wrapped up way too many dilemmas with "well why don't we just adjust the phase variance by .75". That's a rubbish way to use science in SF. If you must use science to solve your problems then it has to be in an interesting way. Carter's use of a wormhole to blow up a sun is an example of good use of science, as is her trick in MoT. It's stuff that the viewer can hear and think "hmm, if I'd been given a couple of clues i could have thought of that" and it's interesting. Re-routing the warp field however, that just sounds like they invented it cos they couldn't think of anything else. Voyager has the worst technobabble ever.

[Stryd0r]

Adding to that, another thing Voyager lacked was a captain with good morals. Janeway was all over the place with her ethics, sometimes breaking regulations easily and other times saying 'we can't break what the federation is based upon etc.', and only a few times did the show dwell on it (such as her giving the order to kill Tuvix).

Compare it to DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight', or a few others, and you can see Janeway has nothing on Sisko.

[the Fifth Race]

Adding to that, another thing Voyager lacked was a captain with good morals. Janeway was all over the place with her ethics, sometimes breaking regulations easily and other times saying 'we can't break what the federation is based upon etc.', and only a few times did the show dwell on it (such as her giving the order to kill Tuvix).

Compare it to DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight', or a few others, and you can see Janeway has nothing on Sisko.

I agree that Janeway did'nt live up to expectations (considering whom she had to follow). She did get better in later seasons as the whole show did. I don;t know if I agree with the Janeway and lack of morals issue. Remember she landed Voyager in the Delta quadrant because of her morals in not wanting to sacrifice others to save herself or crew. She continuously wrestled with her decision throughout the seasons and did end up bending alot of "rules" to try and get her crew home or simply survive.

I have said it on GW and a few other sites in the past. "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko lied and plotted with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war with the Federation and Klingons, is probably one of if not my favorite episode. Sisko was dark, disturbed, rentless, without morals simply fantastic!, Garak was simply marvelous Garak!.

[sueKay]

Well...Voyager's my favourite trek, and while Janeway wasn't the best captain, she is my favourite character.

Yes...she made a lot of bad calls in the Delta Quadrant (Equinox springs instantly to mind) but we also saw that these decisions DID have an affect on her (Night)

I loved the characters on Voyager, and IMO the show had a very strong ensemble cast...the only problem was the lack of good science fiction stories...there were more morality plays than adventures.

Saw a DS8 ep today...the one where Morn fakes his own death...gotta love Morn!

[Anubis69]

I have said it on GW and a few other sites in the past. "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko lied and plotted with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war with the Federation and Klingons, is probably one of if not my favorite episode.

Out of all i've seen (currently mid way through S6) i'd be inclined to agree, but i'd throw "Favour the Bold" and "Sacrifice the Angels" into the hat as well. Dukat losing it at the end of Angels was just amazing TV. Just thinking of that, and the fleet action make the hairs on my neck stand on end. That makes me really, really sad doesn't it?!

One thing that annoyed me about Voyager, was the regularity that they stopped off somewhere and fell in love with something or someone and asked the captain to stay, only to be turned down. The Harry Kim one's were the most stupid. (the fact she thinks of him as a kid!?) Oh and the EMH with the singing?

[Samuel J. Tilden]

Thinking back on DS9, it seems like the highs were higher and the lows were lower. The Ferangi episodes (particularly in the latter days of the series) and the incomprehensively bad "Take Me Out To The Holosuite" must rank among the worst Trek episodes ever. Voyager had a number of lackluster episodes, but I don't think that any of them were individually as embarrassing as DS9's clunkers.

One of the problems with both Voyager and DS9 compared to the other Treks is the necessity to invent lame excuses to justify the innummerable side trips that constituted the "one-off" episodes. I mean, Voyager's mission supposedly involves getting home as quickly as possible but the crew stops off at every other planet to meet the alien-of-the-week and get involved in some kind of dilemma that does not involve getting home faster.

And then you have DS9 where the crew would take a little jaunt on the Defiant to do scientific research on some planet or another leaving the station completely unguarded from Dominion attack! The Enterprises had open-ended missions for the most part so they never suffered from those particular plausibility issues.

[the Fifth Race]

Out of all i've seen (currently mid way through S6) i'd be inclined to agree, but i'd throw "Favour the Bold" and "Sacrifice the Angels" into the hat as well. Dukat losing it at the end of Angels was just amazing TV. Just thinking of that, and the fleet action make the hairs on my neck stand on end. That makes me really, really sad doesn't it?!

One thing that annoyed me about Voyager, was the regularity that they stopped off somewhere and fell in love with something or someone and asked the captain to stay, only to be turned down. The Harry Kim one's were the most stupid. (the fact she thinks of him as a kid!?) Oh and the EMH with the singing?

I had more than few "hairs standing up on the back of neck" moments watching certain DS9 epsiodes. Most of them came from the storylines of the Dominion war, especially the one towards the end of the series when the Cardassian fleet finally decided to turn on the Dominion and Breen, to me that's where concept Star Trek really shined through!.

I hear you on the whole Harry Kim being the rookie ensign and maybe feeling out of place (having Janeway constantly remind him or treat him like a son or child) got old. But in the end Harry Kim turned out to be one of favorite characters. Afterall he was the only one that got his own command and became a galaxy class captain. They payed great homage to him in those last epsidoes with the storyline arc.

[Franklyn Blaze]

Well initially, I felt that the show was a little slowpaced...which, to be fair, was during the time they were trying to establish the characters and get their footing. At the beginning, the episodes were a little disjointed and random.

Everything changed however with the advent of the Dominion. The stories became more compelling...of course adding Michael Dorn to the mix was a great idea because he just was electric on that show. He seemed to really tie the cast together...and I thoroughly enjoyed the chemistry he shared with Jadzia. I hated that Dax was killed off though...I LOVED Dax. But then I'm not a fan of killing off a lead character...EVER.

So to answer your question or at least I guess to give my opinion, I agree that Deep Space Nine had some truly fabulous story arcs, well developed characters and compelling plots. It is definitely one one of my favorite SciFi shows...and is one of the best Star Trek series.

ITA. DS9 was the first Trek show where there really wasn't much of a reset button. I think it learnt from Babylon 5. The first two years were rather slow and were all about the story of the week, but once the Dominion was introduced things got very interesting.

It wasn't just darker than other Treks, but it allowed the darkness to get inside the main characters in a way that its predecessors had only allowed to happen when there was mind-affecting alien tech or possession involved. Worf seemed to flourish as a character in that environment. In TNG he'd always been expected to behave as a human, and he'd be congratulated whenever his human upbringing was allowed to take over and chastised when his much darker klingon traits emerged. In DS9 he was allowed to be a klingon. I liked Jake too, because after Wesley it was unexpected to have a teenager who seldom if ever saves the day and who doesn't even particularly want to.

It also felt much more dynamic in terms of character structure. I know that apart from Dax and Worf there were no major main cast changes, but the characters themselves had more room to change and grow, because the ever-growing importance of the space station and the ever-increasing responsibilities involved with its operation gave each character an excuse to stick around the same place for seven years. TNG never rung quite true because it was harder to believe in Riker and Data staying on the enterprise as #2 and #3 rather than moving to a command on a smaller ship or even a level transfer. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that no other Trek had such a large supporting cast as DS9, and there's nothing like a big pool of minor characters to add verisimilitude. Some of the minor players like Winn and Dukat and Garak and Rom got more development and meatier stories than other shows give to the main cast. That was good.

I think you guys summed it up perfectly. To me it will always be what set the bar for star trek and why most (not all) were disappointed for the later series. DS9 is one of the love it or hate it series it seems, but I loved it.

[the Fifth Race]

Thinking back on DS9, it seems like the highs were higher and the lows were lower.

Agreed!, one week you would get an episode that fantastic and have you thinking for a couple days afterward, then the next week it was like what happened?. Although as I have said before the latter half of season 5 through season 7 95% of the episodes were great.

Voyager's mission supposedly involves getting home as quickly as possible but the crew stops off at every other planet to meet the alien-of-the-week and get involved in some kind of dilemma that does not involve getting home faster.

LOLOL....had me scratching my head a few times. One week its good/follow the prime directive Janeway, the next its what prime directive Janeway. Sure her circumstances might have warranted it. But the show was still scattered alot.

Good takes Samuel!