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  1. #1001

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    Yeah, even the first encounter with the Jem'Hadar, the First that spoke to Sisko said he wished it was a Klingon instead of a human they had captured. The Jem'Hadar would've preferred to test themselves against the more warrior-like species of the Alpha Quadrant.
    Good point, even in that early episode the JemHadar showed (like you point out brother MF) they were more interested in "testing" themselves and not so much in dealing with us weaker humans. The female Vorta in that episode presented a quagmire for me personally in that she lied to try and trick us yet she easily could have killed Sisko and company but didn't and showed some honor in the end. It left we wondering about who and what the Vorta and JemHadar were going to be like in future storylines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    In that two-parter in season 5, I started to see the Jem'Hadar in a new light, but it was the season 6 episode "Rocks and Shoals" that I really started to respect the Jem'Hadar.
    Great call on Rocks and Shoals, similar to the episode The First Sisko and crew are thrown into a situation dealing with a Vorta leading a group of JemHadar. The Vorta was so slimy yet he did what he needed to to save himself and the marooned Federation group by sacrificing the JemHadar. This was a great episode.

  2. #1002
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    It left we wondering about who and what the Vorta and JemHadar were going to be like in future storylines.
    I had been thinking about this as well. I've wondered what would happen to the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta post hostilities. I know the Vorta cloning facilities were completely destroyed during the war. Or was it just the factories located in the Alpha quadrant?

    I would like to see how the Jem'Hadar progress now that there is no more war (at the minute anyway) for them to fight. Would the Federation and their allies seek war reparations in the form of shutting down the Jem'Hadar hatcheries, thus rendering them extinct? Or would they allow them to exist, and maybe risk them becoming power hungry? We did have that episode with the breakaway faction of the Jem'Hadar, where they wanted to control the Iconian gateways and take over the Gamma Quadrant and Federation. They might even become honourable like the Klingons, even though they'd still be warlike. It would be hard for the Jem'Hadar to change that basic instinct for conflict that was bred into their genetic makeup.

    There are still a lot of questions to be answered in the post-war galaxy. It would be interesting to see what became of the Dominion species in a future film or new TV series.


    I've just realised that this thread has reached a milestone. The 1000th post was made yesterday.
    "Captain, you almost make me believe in luck."

  3. #1003
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase


    Great call on Rocks and Shoals, similar to the episode The First Sisko and crew are thrown into a situation dealing with a Vorta leading a group of JemHadar. The Vorta was so slimy yet he did what he needed to to save himself and the marooned Federation group by sacrificing the JemHadar. This was a great episode.


    I love Rocks and Shoals! One of the few I taped when it originally aired. It was so fantastic to see the episode again on DVD. It really changed me outlook on the Jem' Hadar.

  4. #1004
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I had been thinking about this as well. I've wondered what would happen to the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta post hostilities. I know the Vorta cloning facilities were completely destroyed during the war. Or was it just the factories located in the Alpha quadrant?

    I would like to see how the Jem'Hadar progress now that there is no more war (at the minute anyway) for them to fight. Would the Federation and their allies seek war reparations in the form of shutting down the Jem'Hadar hatcheries, thus rendering them extinct? Or would they allow them to exist, and maybe risk them becoming power hungry? We did have that episode with the breakaway faction of the Jem'Hadar, where they wanted to control the Iconian gateways and take over the Gamma Quadrant and Federation. They might even become honourable like the Klingons, even though they'd still be warlike. It would be hard for the Jem'Hadar to change that basic instinct for conflict that was bred into their genetic makeup.

    There are still a lot of questions to be answered in the post-war galaxy. It would be interesting to see what became of the Dominion species in a future film or new TV series.


    I've just realised that this thread has reached a milestone. The 1000th post was made yesterday.
    Something I have also pondered in my free time. It was interesting to see the lone Jem'Hadar character in the DS9 re-launch book series. Everyone should take a look at those if they get a chance.

  5. #1005

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I know the Vorta cloning facilities were completely destroyed during the war.
    Just watched that last week. While it's clear that the cloning facility was destroyed, in another part of the episode, it's mentioned that the attempt on the system itself failed. I always wonder about those kinds of details.......

  6. #1006

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I had been thinking about this as well. I've wondered what would happen to the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta post hostilities. I know the Vorta cloning facilities were completely destroyed during the war. Or was it just the factories located in the Alpha quadrant?
    It was destroyed in the Alpha Quadrant, at the time no one was coming or going through the wormhole because the Prophets had blocked everything including a JemHadar fleet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I would like to see how the Jem'Hadar progress now that there is no more war (at the minute anyway) for them to fight. Would the Federation and their allies seek war reparations in the form of shutting down the Jem'Hadar hatcheries, thus rendering them extinct? Or would they allow them to exist, and maybe risk them becoming power hungry? We did have that episode with the breakaway faction of the Jem'Hadar, where they wanted to control the Iconian gateways and take over the Gamma Quadrant and Federation. They might even become honourable like the Klingons, even though they'd still be warlike. It would be hard for the Jem'Hadar to change that basic instinct for conflict that was bred into their genetic makeup.
    That is some very good pondering brother MF, brother Fifth and I talked about what would happen to the JemHadar and Vorta after the war. I had no doubt the Vorta were hopeless in that there was NO way they were going to abandon the Founders. Where as the JemHadar showed signs of independance and even some disdain for the Founders. I always thought a group of them would break off from the Founders and try to make it on there own, like those JemHadar who had managed to live after giving up Ket'racel White.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misster.Freeman
    There are still a lot of questions to be answered in the post-war galaxy. It would be interesting to see what became of the Dominion species in a future film or new TV series.
    Amen to that!.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misster.Freeman
    I've just realised that this thread has reached a milestone. The 1000th post was made yesterday.
    That was me who posted the 1000th reply to this great thread. Hey where is my prize brother Fifth
    Last edited by Starbase; June 20th, 2006 at 04:29 AM.

  7. #1007

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by HirogenGater
    I love Rocks and Shoals! One of the few I taped when it originally aired. It was so fantastic to see the episode again on DVD. It really changed me outlook on the Jem' Hadar.
    That's exactly the way I felt as well. The JemHadar were ever evolving everytime we had an episode with them as the main players.

    This is one of the reasons why DS9 was my favorite series, not only for the great storylines and some of the best and most endearing characters but the way the writers and TPTB gave us so much back story and depth to all the alien races involved in DS9. The Cardassians, the Bajorans, the Founders, the Vorta, the JemHaDar, the Breen and even the Klingons and Romulans had so much depth, we learned a lot about each, more than we ever got on any other Trek series. You really have to hand it to the writers.

  8. #1008
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I had been thinking about this as well. I've wondered what would happen to the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta post hostilities. I know the Vorta cloning facilities were completely destroyed during the war. Or was it just the factories located in the Alpha quadrant?
    I believe brother Starbase is right, the wormhole was shut down from all traffic coming or going by the prophets when the JemHadar fleet tried to come through from the Gamma quadrant. How screwed would we have been if the Prophets didn't shut it down?, the JemHadar fleet was supposedly large enough to dominate everyone and everything in the Alpha Quadrant.

    I wonder if the Founders would have even made a deal with the Cardassians and Breen if the JemHadar fleet was able to come through to the Alpha Quadrant?. It seems the Founders needed Cardassia as a place to build up there forces (ships and JemHadar soldiers) otherwise I do not see any need for the Founders to make that deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    I would like to see how the Jem'Hadar progress now that there is no more war (at the minute anyway) for them to fight. Would the Federation and their allies seek war reparations in the form of shutting down the Jem'Hadar hatcheries, thus rendering them extinct? Or would they allow them to exist, and maybe risk them becoming power hungry? We did have that episode with the breakaway faction of the Jem'Hadar, where they wanted to control the Iconian gateways and take over the Gamma Quadrant and Federation. They might even become honourable like the Klingons, even though they'd still be warlike. It would be hard for the Jem'Hadar to change that basic instinct for conflict that was bred into their genetic makeup.
    I would think the accord that was signed would have included that the JemHadar, Vorta and any Founders would have to go back to the Gamma Quadrant or face destruction or persecution.

    What became of Odo, was he able to convince the other Founders in the "great link" that not all solids are evil and bent or conquering everything. Was he able to start a dialogue and maybe even an alliance with the Founders to avoid any confrontation in the future?.

    I would bet that the Starfleet and other alien races from the Alpha Quadrant were eager to explore the Gamma Quadrant and try to make friends and alliances for trade purposes.

    You bring up some great points and food for thought brother MF, I like where this conversation is headed, this speculation is great stuff and fun to dabble in.

  9. #1009

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    What became of Odo, was he able to convince the other Founders in the "great link" that not all solids are evil and bent or conquering everything. Was he able to start a dialogue and maybe even an alliance with the Founders to avoid any confrontation in the future?.
    Considering how quickly he convinced the female changeling to call off the war, I would bet on him. It was also his primary reason for leaving Kira....

    How anyone could leave Kira is beyond me.......

  10. #1010
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    That's exactly the way I felt as well. The JemHadar were ever evolving every time we had an episode with them as the main players.
    So true, you never knew what was going to happen or what kind of JemHadar you were going to get from one episode to another. The same could be said about the Vorta, although not as in depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    This is one of the reasons why DS9 was my favorite series, not only for the great storylines and some of the best and most endearing characters but the way the writers and TPTB gave us so much back story and depth to all the alien races involved in DS9. The Cardassians, the Bajorans, the Founders, the Vorta, the JemHaDar, the Breen and even the Klingons and Romulans had so much depth, we learned a lot about each, more than we ever got on any other Trek series. You really have to hand it to the writers.
    Well said Base, I have talked about this with you and on this thread in the past about how TPTB and Braga in particular went into extreme depths to set-up the back stories about the alien races involved in DS9. The Bajorans had so much depth and information about there history and culture that you felt like you knew them well and that they had been a part on Star Trek from the beginning. The same could be said about the Cardassians and the Ferengi's, we got a blurb here and there with them on TNG and VOY but neither of those series gave us as much information on those races.

  11. #1011

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    I wonder if the Founders would have even made a deal with the Cardassians and Breen if the JemHadar fleet was able to come through to the Alpha Quadrant?. It seems the Founders needed Cardassia as a place to build up there forces (ships and JemHadar soldiers) otherwise I do not see any need for the Founders to make that deal.
    No way in hell the Founders would have bothered with making alliances with ANYONE. They had planned on turning against the Cardassians and the Breen once that Starfleet and there alliance was destroyed. Weyoun was puzzled by the female Founders promises to the Cardassians and Breen and questioned the female Founder about it where she replied that she had NO intention in honoring any deal with solids what so ever!.

  12. #1012
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610
    Considering how quickly he convinced the female changeling to call off the war, I would bet on him. It was also his primary reason for leaving Kira....
    The Founders were dying and didn't have much time, the female shape shifter had no choice but to surrender after Odo told her that its the only way that the Founders could be saved in time. It funny how self survival changes peoples mind and actions 360 degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610
    How anyone could leave Kira is beyond me.......
    Amen kmiller!, the more I re-watch season V right now the more I realize how great a character Kira is!. I was a fan of Nan Visitor (Kira) before DS9. Wasn't her alternate universe character fantastic!.

    By the way this is the 10,000 reply in the Star Trek section Awesome!

  13. #1013

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    The Founders were dying and didn't have much time, the female shape shifter had no choice but to surrender after Odo told her that its the only way that the Founders could be saved in time. It funny how self survival changes peoples mind and actions 360 degrees.
    The female shapeshifter was content on holding out and inflicting as much damage on the Federation and its allies and fighting to the bitter end. When you face that what can you do?, you find something that will help your enemy and use as a tool to get what you want (ie. the cure to the Federation created disease that was killing the Founders). Even though it was very un-Federation like, it was totally necessary to gain the advantage in a war you were losing. A lot like how Sisko had to lie, cheat and even murder to get the Romulans to join the Federation against the Dominion. Sure you may not feel good about it and you know deep down you are selling your soul but results do not lie!. One thing the Dominion war taught us, is that in times of war facing destruction, anything goes. When you are dead you can't ponder the possibilities of what might have been.

  14. #1014

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    Amen kmiller!, the more I re-watch season V right now the more I realize how great a character Kira is!. I was a fan of Nan Visitor (Kira) before DS9. Wasn't her alternate universe character fantastic!.
    I totally agree brother Fifth, I am also rewatching seasons 5, 6 & 7 for the episode discussion and the more I watch the bigger fan I become of Kira. It's funny because I did not have the same admiration for here when I originally watched DS9 when it aired. Other than Sisko and maybe Martok she is my favorite character from the later seasons.

    What a sexy and kind of twisted character "Alternate Universe" Kira is!, even "AU" Leeta had some racy scenes and was oh so sexy as well!.

  15. #1015
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    What a sexy and kind of twisted character "Alternate Universe" Kira is!, even "AU" Leeta had some racy scenes and was oh so sexy as well!.
    Speaking of Alternate Universe" characters from DS9.....
    How about Worf, he was such a buffoon and not very intelligent unlike the real Worf, funny stuff!.

    AU Bashir was a hoot as well, he was so edgy, dangerous and so unlike the real Bashir, he would have made a great "bad guy" character.

    AU Dax was rather interesting as well, she is just so damn sexy no matter what she portrays.

    AU Quark, Sisko and O'Brien weren't to much different from there regular universe characters.

    IMHO DS9 did the best AU episodes from the various Trek series.

  16. #1016

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    Speaking of Alternate Universe" characters from DS9.....
    How about Worf, he was such a buffoon and not very intelligent unlike the real Worf, funny stuff!.
    LOL, Worf was a bumbling captain in the AU episodes. I did like that supership he commanded in the AU, that thing was huge!.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    AU Bashir was a hoot as well, he was so edgy, dangerous and so unlike the real Bashir, he would have made a great "bad guy" character.

    AU Dax was rather interesting as well, she is just so damn sexy no matter what she portrays.

    AU Quark, Sisko and O'Brien weren't to much different from there regular universe characters.

    IMHO DS9 did the best AU episodes from the various Trek series.
    Bashir was quite evil even though he was on the good side, If I remember right he had a big scar on his face and had Dax as his first in command and they also had a romantic thing going on.

    AU O'Brien did seem the closest to being the same person as he is in the regular universe, a good guy.

  17. #1017
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    Speaking of Alternate Universe" characters from DS9.....
    How about Worf, he was such a buffoon and not very intelligent unlike the real Worf, funny stuff!.

    AU Bashir was a hoot as well, he was so edgy, dangerous and so unlike the real Bashir, he would have made a great "bad guy" character.
    Out of all the AU characters, the alternate Bashir was the one person I really wished would die horribly. Still, it was good to see Siddig El Fadil play the opposite side of his character.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    AU Quark, Sisko and O'Brien weren't to much different from there regular universe characters.
    It was weird to see Quark being kind for a change. At first I didn't like the mirror Sisko, he seemed so selfish, and a collaborator. He turned out okay in the end, dying for a cause. And what's not to like about good old Miles O'Brien. He's the everyman in any universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    IMHO DS9 did the best AU episodes from the various Trek series.
    As much as I liked the AU stories, the writers didn't half milk the Mirror Universe dry. To be honest, I was starting to tire of those episodes in the end. Although, AU Ezri sure was a sight to behold. Yes indeedy.
    "Captain, you almost make me believe in luck."

  18. #1018
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    Out of all the AU characters, the alternate Bashir was the one person I really wished would die horribly. Still, it was good to see Siddig El Fadil play the opposite side of his character.
    He was rather dispicable wasn't he. I got the feeling he loved playing that role.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    t was weird to see Quark being kind for a change. At first I didn't like the mirror Sisko, he seemed so selfish, and a collaborator. He turned out okay in the end, dying for a cause. And what's not to like about good old Miles O'Brien. He's the everyman in any universe.
    The AU episode where the Grand Negus went to the AU to try and find profit and people to trade with was well...so damn Ferengi like!. Quark was exceptional in that episode, so what else is new, Quark was brilliant in everything he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    As much as I liked the AU stories, the writers didn't half milk the Mirror Universe dry. To be honest, I was starting to tire of those episodes in the end. Although, AU Ezri sure was a sight to behold. Yes indeedy.
    I agree brother MF, those AU episodes were fine in very small bunches (1 or 2 episodes max) but to keep going back to them got a little tiresome. I did not care for the TNG and VOY AU episodes they did, but judging by the fact that they only did one each tells you that the ratings weren't that good for those episodes. Where as on DS9 they made a handful of them so the ratings must have been much better.

    Ahhhh, the Ezri AU episode where her and Kira get a little naughty , if I remember right that was the one where Leeta got a little naughty as well. Thanx for the fine memory brother MF.

  19. #1019

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    Out of all the AU characters, the alternate Bashir was the one person I really wished would die horribly. Still, it was good to see Siddig El Fadil play the opposite side of his character.
    LOL /\/\/\
    AU Bashir was da bomb, he was also miserable and bitter about everything, the exact opposite of the real Bashir. We didn't get nearly enough of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    As much as I liked the AU stories, the writers didn't half milk the Mirror Universe dry. To be honest, I was starting to tire of those episodes in the end. Although, AU Ezri sure was a sight to behold. Yes indeedy.
    I hear you brother MF, I used to sigh when I realized that I was about to watch an AU episode. But like brother Fifth said...DS9 did do the best AU episodes from serious to down right silly.

    The AU Cardassians were rather interesting.

  20. #1020
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 Superior

    Season V DS9 episode discussion......

    Episodes # 19 & 20
    Ties of Blood and Water
    Kira meets Tekeny Ghemor, a known Cardassian dissident, hoping he will lead the opposition to the Cardassian/Dominion Alliance. Ghemor reveals he hasn't long to live but he may still be able to help Kira's cause with a Cardassian ritual in which the dying reveal secrets to their family to use against their enemies. Since Ghemor apparently has no living relatives, he asks Kira, who the Cardassians once kidnapped and surgically altered to look like his long-lost child, to be his "daughter" one last time. Sisko points out that this is an incredible opportunity to learn Cardassian secrets. Kira reluctantly agrees to the task.
    Kira sets up at Ghemor's deathbed, where they begin. Ghemor struggles against agonizing pain to share his secrets, and Kira struggles with memories of her own father, Taban, and his death by the Cardassians years before. Meanwhile, Gul Dukat arrives via Jem'Hadar battleship, demanding Ghemor's return.

    Dukat and his Dominion cohorts board the station and go to Ghemor, who refuses to leave with them, even when Dukat tempts him with a reunion with his real missing daughter, Iliana. Later, Dukat tells Kira that Ghemor is not the man she thinks he is — he participated in a notorious massacre at a Bajoran monastery, and proves it by handing her Ghemor's military file.

    Returning to Ghemor, Kira angrily confronts him and, despite his apologies, leaves him to die alone. Odo reminds Kira that Ghemor was only 19 at the time of the massacre, then suggests Kira might really be upset about something else. Kira again recalls when her father was dying, and remembers leaving to fight with his attackers instead of staying by his side as he wished. Bashir interrupts her with news that Ghemor will be dead within the hour.

    Kira refuses to go to Ghemor's side, then again thinks back to the past, and remembers returning from battle to learn that her father died calling her name. The memory is too much — Kira goes back to Ghemor's bedside and takes his hand, finally able to help him die in peace. As a final gesture, she takes Ghemor's body to Bajor and buries him next to her father.

    Ferengi Love Songs
    Depressed over his lot in life — especially being blacklisted by the Ferengi Commerce Authority — Quark goes to his homeworld of Ferenginar for some comfort from his mother, Ishka. The free-thinking Ishka is sympathetic, but clearly uneasy over his declaration that he will be "living" with her for an unspecified period of time. Quark soon learns the reason behind her uncertainty. When he enters his old bedroom, he finds Grand Nagus Zek — the Ferengi leader — hiding in the closet! It turns out that Ishka and Zek are in love.
    Zek demands Quark keep their affair a secret, and Quark agrees, thrilled that his mother is now the beloved of the most powerful man on his homeworld. But when Quark hints that he would like Zek to reinstate his revoked business license, Zek refuses, reminding Quark that it is up to the FCA. Quark returns to his room, where Liquidator Brunt, the FCA agent who revoked his license, confront him.

    Brunt offers to give Quark a new business license if he breaks up Zek and Ishka. Quark agrees, and soon places doubts in Zek's head about Ishka's motives. The plan works — his mother is left heartbroken. Quark feigns sympathy, then contacts Brunt, who keeps his word and gives him the business license.

    Zek offers Quark the position of First Clerk. Quark happily accepts — then discovers the Nagus is not the profit-making whiz he once was. By day's end, the Ferengi market exchange has experienced a drastic slide due to the Nagus's failing memory. A stunned Quark returns home, where Ishka reveals that she had been helping Zek. Quark realizes that his mother was more than Zek's lover — she was the power behind the throne. Ishka, in turn, realizes that Quark turned Zek against her, and may have destroyed the Ferengi economy in the process.

    Quark encounters Brunt, who reveals that the entire plan was a set-up designed to help him become the new Grand Nagus. Quark is free to return to Deep Space Nine, but feels too guilty over what he has inadvertently done. The next day, Quark saves Zek by supplying him with enough brilliant advice to turn around the economic situation, but then reveals that the advice actually came from Ishka. After Quark admits to breaking them up, Zek and Ishka happily reunite.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I really liked Ties of Blood of Water, another great Kira dedicated stand alone that actually played into the whole Dominion war storyline. The relationship between Kira and the Cardassian Ghemor who is Kira's adopted father came to head and an end when he died in this episode. A lot of flashbacks and such about Kira's life on DS9 under Cardassian rule.

    Ferengi Love Songs was a rather blase episode that was saved by Brunt. Quark was sad and depressed so he went to Feregenar to visit Moogie (his and Rom's mother) and discovers she is having an affair with the grand Nagus.

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