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  1. #21
    Lieutenant Colonel warmbeachbrat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Buddha
    In terms of science fiction ideas, DS9 was not actually that strong.

    The original series, with silicone life forms (the Horta), alternate universes (the Mirror Universe), etc. really was strong in that area. So too was TNG with lots of questions about when does artificial life get rights, closed time loops (Yesterday's Enterprise), techno-organic life (the Borg), and so on.

    But DS9 beat them all with characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings. While it took advantage of many of the earlier introduced science fiction ideas (the Mirror Universe, etc.), it didn't really impress me with new innovations or expanding the concepts. But no other Trek was more of an ensemble performance, and no Trek had better recurring characters.

    A pity that the subsequent Trek's couldn't learn from DS9 and try to bring more of the science fiction back to the show. Voyager and Enterprise didn't manage to do either the science fiction or the arc/characterization bit, though in Season 4, Enterprise DID start to find a balance between arc and stand alone episodes.
    A Trek with innovative sci-fi ideas, strong characterization, story arc, and richness of surroundings? Now THAT would be a great series! I guess the only thing I would add would be some "sense of wonder" or exploration.

    Until Enterprise, Deep Space Nine was the only Trek series I did not watch. I caught a few episodes, but I guess it was a little too dark and gloomy for me. And I really did enjoy the "to boldly go where no man has gone before," of the other Trek series. I guess I have an overly-optimistic nature, so DS9 just didn't resonate with me. I'm sorry for it now, because I would like to see all of the episodes, but I don't think they're airing in my community.

    TNG was my favorite with Voyager close behind (why all the hatred of Voyager? I don't get it). At this point, with no Trek on the horizon, I would dearly love to catch up with DS9. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait for the syndication ptb to catch up to me.
    Last edited by warmbeachbrat; September 22nd, 2005 at 05:34 AM. Reason: minor typo--I'm so picky!

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  2. #22
    Brigadier General Madeleine's Avatar
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    Default Let's reverse the polarity of the neutron flow!

    Why all the hatred of Voyager? It lacked the vision and creativity of TOS. It lacked the fascinating and dynamic inter-character dynamics that were a staple of DS9. It lacked the memorable one-offs that TNG did so well. It lacked the multidimensional universe of DS9. It lacked a decent supporting ensemble.

    And it wrapped up way too many dilemmas with "well why don't we just adjust the phase variance by .75". That's a rubbish way to use science in SF. If you must use science to solve your problems then it has to be in an interesting way. Carter's use of a wormhole to blow up a sun is an example of good use of science, as is her trick in MoT. It's stuff that the viewer can hear and think "hmm, if I'd been given a couple of clues i could have thought of that" and it's interesting. Re-routing the warp field however, that just sounds like they invented it cos they couldn't think of anything else. Voyager has the worst technobabble ever.

    Madeleine

  3. #23

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Adding to that, another thing Voyager lacked was a captain with good morals. Janeway was all over the place with her ethics, sometimes breaking regulations easily and other times saying 'we can't break what the federation is based upon etc.', and only a few times did the show dwell on it (such as her giving the order to kill Tuvix).

    Compare it to DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight', or a few others, and you can see Janeway has nothing on Sisko.

  4. #24
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryd0r
    Adding to that, another thing Voyager lacked was a captain with good morals. Janeway was all over the place with her ethics, sometimes breaking regulations easily and other times saying 'we can't break what the federation is based upon etc.', and only a few times did the show dwell on it (such as her giving the order to kill Tuvix).

    Compare it to DS9's 'In the Pale Moonlight', or a few others, and you can see Janeway has nothing on Sisko.

    I agree that Janeway did'nt live up to expectations (considering whom she had to follow). She did get better in later seasons as the whole show did. I don;t know if I agree with the Janeway and lack of morals issue. Remember she landed Voyager in the Delta quadrant because of her morals in not wanting to sacrifice others to save herself or crew. She continuously wrestled with her decision throughout the seasons and did end up bending alot of "rules" to try and get her crew home or simply survive.

    I have said it on GW and a few other sites in the past. "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko lied and plotted with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war with the Federation and Klingons, is probably one of if not my favorite episode. Sisko was dark, disturbed, rentless, without morals simply fantastic!, Garak was simply marvelous Garak!.

  5. #25
    Major General sueKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Well...Voyager's my favourite trek, and while Janeway wasn't the best captain, she is my favourite character.

    Yes...she made a lot of bad calls in the Delta Quadrant (Equinox springs instantly to mind) but we also saw that these decisions DID have an affect on her (Night)

    I loved the characters on Voyager, and IMO the show had a very strong ensemble cast...the only problem was the lack of good science fiction stories...there were more morality plays than adventures.

    Saw a DS8 ep today...the one where Morn fakes his own death...gotta love Morn!

    Part 2 coming very soon!! (this is a fic btw, not the Fandemonium novel)

  6. #26
    Lieutenant Colonel Anubis69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    I have said it on GW and a few other sites in the past. "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko lied and plotted with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war with the Federation and Klingons, is probably one of if not my favorite episode.
    Out of all i've seen (currently mid way through S6) i'd be inclined to agree, but i'd throw "Favour the Bold" and "Sacrifice the Angels" into the hat as well. Dukat losing it at the end of Angels was just amazing TV. Just thinking of that, and the fleet action make the hairs on my neck stand on end. That makes me really, really sad doesn't it?!

    One thing that annoyed me about Voyager, was the regularity that they stopped off somewhere and fell in love with something or someone and asked the captain to stay, only to be turned down. The Harry Kim one's were the most stupid. (the fact she thinks of him as a kid!?) Oh and the EMH with the singing?
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Thinking back on DS9, it seems like the highs were higher and the lows were lower. The Ferangi episodes (particularly in the latter days of the series) and the incomprehensively bad "Take Me Out To The Holosuite" must rank among the worst Trek episodes ever. Voyager had a number of lackluster episodes, but I don't think that any of them were individually as embarrassing as DS9's clunkers.

    One of the problems with both Voyager and DS9 compared to the other Treks is the necessity to invent lame excuses to justify the innummerable side trips that constituted the "one-off" episodes. I mean, Voyager's mission supposedly involves getting home as quickly as possible but the crew stops off at every other planet to meet the alien-of-the-week and get involved in some kind of dilemma that does not involve getting home faster.

    And then you have DS9 where the crew would take a little jaunt on the Defiant to do scientific research on some planet or another leaving the station completely unguarded from Dominion attack! The Enterprises had open-ended missions for the most part so they never suffered from those particular plausibility issues.
    "There is simply no other choice than this: either to abstain from interference in the free play of the market, or to delegate the entire management of production and distribution to the government. Either capitalism or socialism: there exists no middle way."
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  8. #28
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis69
    Out of all i've seen (currently mid way through S6) i'd be inclined to agree, but i'd throw "Favour the Bold" and "Sacrifice the Angels" into the hat as well. Dukat losing it at the end of Angels was just amazing TV. Just thinking of that, and the fleet action make the hairs on my neck stand on end. That makes me really, really sad doesn't it?!

    One thing that annoyed me about Voyager, was the regularity that they stopped off somewhere and fell in love with something or someone and asked the captain to stay, only to be turned down. The Harry Kim one's were the most stupid. (the fact she thinks of him as a kid!?) Oh and the EMH with the singing?

    I had more than few "hairs standing up on the back of neck" moments watching certain DS9 epsiodes. Most of them came from the storylines of the Dominion war, especially the one towards the end of the series when the Cardassian fleet finally decided to turn on the Dominion and Breen, to me that's where concept Star Trek really shined through!.

    I hear you on the whole Harry Kim being the rookie ensign and maybe feeling out of place (having Janeway constantly remind him or treat him like a son or child) got old. But in the end Harry Kim turned out to be one of favorite characters. Afterall he was the only one that got his own command and became a galaxy class captain. They payed great homage to him in those last epsidoes with the storyline arc.

  9. #29
    Major Franklyn Blaze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
    Well initially, I felt that the show was a little slowpaced...which, to be fair, was during the time they were trying to establish the characters and get their footing. At the beginning, the episodes were a little disjointed and random.

    Everything changed however with the advent of the Dominion. The stories became more compelling...of course adding Michael Dorn to the mix was a great idea because he just was electric on that show. He seemed to really tie the cast together...and I thoroughly enjoyed the chemistry he shared with Jadzia. I hated that Dax was killed off though...I LOVED Dax. But then I'm not a fan of killing off a lead character...EVER.

    So to answer your question or at least I guess to give my opinion, I agree that Deep Space Nine had some truly fabulous story arcs, well developed characters and compelling plots. It is definitely one one of my favorite SciFi shows...and is one of the best Star Trek series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine_W
    ITA. DS9 was the first Trek show where there really wasn't much of a reset button. I think it learnt from Babylon 5. The first two years were rather slow and were all about the story of the week, but once the Dominion was introduced things got very interesting.

    It wasn't just darker than other Treks, but it allowed the darkness to get inside the main characters in a way that its predecessors had only allowed to happen when there was mind-affecting alien tech or possession involved. Worf seemed to flourish as a character in that environment. In TNG he'd always been expected to behave as a human, and he'd be congratulated whenever his human upbringing was allowed to take over and chastised when his much darker klingon traits emerged. In DS9 he was allowed to be a klingon. I liked Jake too, because after Wesley it was unexpected to have a teenager who seldom if ever saves the day and who doesn't even particularly want to.

    It also felt much more dynamic in terms of character structure. I know that apart from Dax and Worf there were no major main cast changes, but the characters themselves had more room to change and grow, because the ever-growing importance of the space station and the ever-increasing responsibilities involved with its operation gave each character an excuse to stick around the same place for seven years. TNG never rung quite true because it was harder to believe in Riker and Data staying on the enterprise as #2 and #3 rather than moving to a command on a smaller ship or even a level transfer. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that no other Trek had such a large supporting cast as DS9, and there's nothing like a big pool of minor characters to add verisimilitude. Some of the minor players like Winn and Dukat and Garak and Rom got more development and meatier stories than other shows give to the main cast. That was good.
    I think you guys summed it up perfectly. To me it will always be what set the bar for star trek and why most (not all) were disappointed for the later series. DS9 is one of the love it or hate it series it seems, but I loved it.

  10. #30
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel J. Tilden
    Thinking back on DS9, it seems like the highs were higher and the lows were lower.
    Agreed!, one week you would get an episode that fantastic and have you thinking for a couple days afterward, then the next week it was like what happened?. Although as I have said before the latter half of season 5 through season 7 95% of the episodes were great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel J. Tilden
    Voyager's mission supposedly involves getting home as quickly as possible but the crew stops off at every other planet to meet the alien-of-the-week and get involved in some kind of dilemma that does not involve getting home faster.
    LOLOL....had me scratching my head a few times. One week its good/follow the prime directive Janeway, the next its what prime directive Janeway. Sure her circumstances might have warranted it. But the show was still scattered alot.

    Good takes Samuel!

  11. #31

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    DS9 is by far my favourite Trek. Even though many people seem to think that Sisko was undeveloped, he became an incredibly complex character at the end (episodes like In The Pale Moonlight [Dancing With The Devil], Far Beyond The Stars (I still wonder which side sent the vision to him- it could have weakened him to the point of doing what he did in In the Pale Moonlight, but it also somewhat strengthened him), The Visitor (the best episode of Trek ever), and many others).

    Almost all of DS9's characters were given a tremendous amount of character development- a refreshing change from TNG, where only Picard and Data were developed, TOS, where only McCoy, Spock, and Kirk were developed, and Voyager/ENT, where no characters were developed. The vast supporting cast included so many great characters- Garak, Dukat, Weyoun, Ross, Eddington (I loved his speach to Sisko about the Federation being worse than the Borg), Ziyal, and many others. Even considering all of his flaws, I loved Jake Sisko. He made The Visitor possible, demonstrated that not all humans join Starfleet (something that had annoyed me since TNG), and had a great arc.

    I don't share the hate of the Ferengi that many others have. Certainly, many of their episodes weren't great, but some were very good. This post (http://www.exisle.net/mb/index.php?showtopic=15056&hl) expresses my feelings about them very well.

    Favourite DS9 episodes:
    The Visitor (Trek's all time best episode)
    Sacrifice of the Angels
    In The Pale Moonlight
    The Wire
    The Die is Cast/By Inferno's Light
    The Seige of AR-####

    My favourite Treks:
    DS9
    TOS/TNG (tie)
    ENT
    VOY

  12. #32
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Nice post Aaron...I agree the developement of most of the characters on DS9 were fun to watch and made the show all the better. I think alot of that had to do with the setting of DS9 (and 7 seasons worth of epsiodes helped too) on a fixed space station.

    Like I said before I grew to like the Ferengi episodes (I always liked Quark from the beginning!). Some of my favorite Ferengi episodes are...
    season 1) The Nagus
    season 2) Rules of Acquisition....Profit and Loss
    season 3) House of Quark....Prophet Motive (great epsiode)
    season 4) Little Green Man....Body Parts
    season 5) The Ascent....Business as Usual
    season 6) The Magnificent Ferengi (great episode)....Profit and Lace (ugly X-dressing Quark)
    season 7) The Siege of AR-58....The Emperor's New Cloak

    I believe the Ferengi episodes were great due in large part to Armman Shimmerman.

    All you favorites episodes you mentioned are all one I consider great as well.

    Speaking of DS9, I just read that Brock Peters (Joseph Sisko 'Sisko's father' and Admiral Cartwright from a couple ST movies) passed away.

  13. #33
    Lieutenant Colonel The Signal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    It's odd really, I have never been much into Trek, but after catching a couple of quick glimpses I was transformed. Bashir is by far the best Doctor in the series and the relationship between him and O'Brien was pure entertainment, like friends in the playground! Sisko, undeveloped, I think not, he is the best of all Trek characters and by far the best captain, Picard and Kirk have nothing on him! It was the high point of the whole idea of Trek as it was one big plotline really, DS9 is the second greatest sci-fi ever, behind SG-1 of course, and just beating Atlantis to the post. Viva la DS9
    Equality is not a concept. It's not something we should be striving for. It's a necessity. Equality is like gravity. We need it to stand on this earth as men and women. And the misogyny that is in every culture is not a true part of the human condition. It is life out of balance, and that imbalance is sucking something out of the soul of every man and woman who is confronted with it.
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  14. #34
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by PtahTheCreationGod
    It's odd really, I have never been much into Trek, but after catching a couple of quick glimpses I was transformed. Bashir is by far the best Doctor in the series and the relationship between him and O'Brien was pure entertainment, like friends in the playground! Sisko, undeveloped, I think not, he is the best of all Trek characters and by far the best captain, Picard and Kirk have nothing on him! It was the high point of the whole idea of Trek as it was one big plotline really, DS9 is the second greatest sci-fi ever, behind SG-1 of course, and just beating Atlantis to the post. Viva la DS9

    Bravo my friend!....I have DS9 ranked as my 2nd favorite scifi series of alltime right behind Stargate of course

    I agree the relationship between O'Brien and Bashir was great TV!. The dual character relationships on DS9 were as good as it gets. Odo and Quark come to mind, Worf and Jadzia, Kira and Odo, Kira and Quark all great!. Sisko and Martok, Worf and Martok, Garak and Bashir were my favorites.

    I agree Sisko was great as a Captain, but he was even better when he was promoted in Season 6. I still have to go with Picard as my favorite Star Trek Captain. Sisko would probably be second.

    Heres my list of alltime favorite scifi series
    1) Stargate (simply the best!)
    2) Deep Space 9 (a very close second!)
    3) The Next Generation
    4) Farscape
    5) Stargate Atlantis (it's new but I already think its a classic!)
    6) Babylon 5
    7) Jerimiah (wish it would have stuck around longer!)
    8) Voyager
    9) Andromeda (Yes, I am one the few that really enjoyed it, except that last season)
    10) Firefly (another one that could have been great if it stuck around)

  15. #35
    Lieutenant Colonel Anubis69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    I believe the Ferengi episodes were great due in large part to Armman Shimmerman.
    I was watching "Who mourns for Morn?" the other day. I loved that bit where the woman was about to cut off Quark's thumb, he has the greatest girly scream ever!!
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  16. #36
    Brigadier General Madeleine's Avatar
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    Default It was shaving his head that made the most difference.

    I didn't think sisko was underdeveloped, but he was certainly slow to get going. That's not a bad thing in retrospect, because with a seven year run it's worth pacing things a bit, and I do think that it allowed the ensemble feel to develop unhindered by the Main Character factor.

    He was very dour at first. Jake's presence was good because it gave me a handle on sisko and a sign that the dourness wasn't all there would be to him.

    Oh, and I've just thought of another reason why DS9 is my favourite: Trials and Tribbleations. The looks on the face of the chap from the bureau of temporal affairs (?) when Sisko was trying to explain were marvellous.

    Madeleine

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    DS9 definitely had a lot going for it and I enjoy a lot of it. It had depth, great characters with interesting backstories, I loved the whole Jem'Hadar/Dominion premise. But for some reason quite a few of the episodes bore me and it's never been my favourite. And as for the final season...don't get me started. I'm with those, too, who get irked that TF couldn't stay on for just one more season. The whole Jadzia dying thing ticks me off to this day.

    No, my favourite has to be Voyager. For the simple fact that I adored the characters and there was rarely a week I didn't enjoy an episode. I even like episodes and characters that, apparently, I hear most fans were appalled by. <g> Neelix grew on me, for instance. And I love that episode with B'lanna bringing the robots that were at war back online. Yes, I do! So sue me!

    I did get annoyed at the whole Sof9 thing during its first run. Not for the 'sex bimbo' angle that irked many fans, but just for the fact that as soon as she arrived it seemed that hardly a week went by without her saving the ship. Suddenly, no one else seemed able to think for themselves. But she grew on me too and in reruns I enjoy her in the episodes that previously she irked me in.

    Albion
    Listen, we had General Ryan come on and do a little cameo for us, and he's a real live four star, one of the big guys. And I had to ask him point blank, because there's a certain irreverence that I bring to the character, and denseness, but while we were doing this scene, I just looked at him and said, "Do you have guys like me in...?" and he stopped me and said, "Yes, and worse, and you're doing a fine job, son."

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  18. #38
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Albion
    DS9 definitely had a lot going for it and I enjoy a lot of it. It had depth, great characters with interesting backstories, I loved the whole Jem'Hadar/Dominion premise. But for some reason quite a few of the episodes bore me and it's never been my favourite. And as for the final season...don't get me started. I'm with those, too, who get irked that TF couldn't stay on for just one more season. The whole Jadzia dying thing ticks me off to this day.

    No, my favourite has to be Voyager. For the simple fact that I adored the characters and there was rarely a week I didn't enjoy an episode. I even like episodes and characters that, apparently, I hear most fans were appalled by. <g> Neelix grew on me, for instance. And I love that episode with B'lanna bringing the robots that were at war back online. Yes, I do! So sue me!

    I did get annoyed at the whole Sof9 thing during its first run. Not for the 'sex bimbo' angle that irked many fans, but just for the fact that as soon as she arrived it seemed that hardly a week went by without her saving the ship. Suddenly, no one else seemed able to think for themselves. But she grew on me too and in reruns I enjoy her in the episodes that previously she irked me in.

    Albion
    I'm curious Albion, what did'nt you like about the final season of DS9?, I have heard a few say they did'nt like it. Perosnally I thought it was great, it did seem like one long episode but there were a few stand alones during season 7.

    7 of 9 did have that whole hot as hell thing going on, but she turned out to be way more in the end. She was smartly written and greatly acted!.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    I agree with you Fifth Race, season's 6 and 7 (and season 5 for that matter) when the whole Dominion conflict started, is when the show really became something special in my eyes!. I loved all the seasons of DS9 but especially the latter seasons.

    7 of 9 = yummy

  20. #40
    Major newtrekker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    For me:

    1. DS9
    2. Voyager
    3. TNG
    4. Enterprise
    5. TOS

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