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  1. #261
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    They never had cloaks but it was suggested as a possibility 'The Search Part I' as the female Vorta just was whisked out of nowhere in the end of Jem'Hadar. Another techology issue is can the Dominion detect cloak or not? Sometimes they seem to and other times the Defiant seems to be ok cloaked. But it is a logical assumption that the Federation Reseach and Development went into overtime since the 'Jem'Hadar' and they had some goodies for the Borg that were put on the backburner.
    Thats a great question brother Wolf!, could the Dominion detect a cloak?. Not all cloaks were the same. In TNG the Federation found a way to track a ship's engine signature of the Klingon ships but it did'nt work the same on a cloaked Romulan ship..

    The first species or race that could find a viable cloak that could fire weapons while remaining cloaked would have ruled the surrounding galaxies.

    What about cloaked weapons, like quantum topedo's?. I don;t seem to remember those being in play in any ST series?.

  2. #262

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    Thats a great question brother Wolf!, could the Dominion detect a cloak?. Not all cloaks were the same. In TNG the Federation found a way to track a ship's engine signature of the Klingon ships but it did'nt work the same on a cloaked Romulan ship..

    The first species or race that could find a viable cloak that could fire weapons while remaining cloaked would have ruled the surrounding galaxies.

    What about cloaked weapons, like quantum topedo's?. I don't seem to remember those being in play in any ST series?.

    It did seem that the Romulans had superior cloak technology, but do not forget the cloaked Federation prototype ship the Pegasus that Adm. Pressman commanded with a young ensign Riker, The Romulans were hot on the Enterprises tail to get the tech. from that ship. If I remember right the cloak could pahse in and out of solid matter, not just appear invisible. That ship was potentially the most superior ship in all of ST.

    "Cloaked Quantum Torpedo's", now those sound nasty and very cool!.

    I can't seem to remember if they ever made the Defiant a cloaked ship?.

  3. #263
    Chief Master Sergeant Wolf Eire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase

    I can't seem to remember if they ever made the Defiant a cloaked ship?.
    You don't remember? It's a major aspect of the Defiant. The Romulans gave the Federation a cloaking device under the condition it could only be used in the Gamma Quadrant and all intelligence gathered there be shared with the Romulans. After the Romulans attempted to destroy the wormhole it seems Romulan/Federation relations went cold but the Defiant still had the cloaking device. They used it in the Alpha Quadrant in 'The Way or the Warrior" to rescue the Cardassian civial government and Bashir reminded Sisko they weren't allowed to use it to which Sisko quipped back "I won't tell anybody if you won't Doctor." Eventually they seemed to use it at will in spite of the terms of the treaty. Initially there was also a Romulan Sub-Commander T'Rul played by Martha Hackett (Seska). If I recall the Dominion see right through the cloak in 'The Search' yet it continues to be used later.

  4. #264
    Chief Master Sergeant Wolf Eire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race

    The first species or race that could find a viable cloak that could fire weapons while remaining cloaked would have ruled the surrounding galaxies.
    *cough* Star Trek 6 *cough*

  5. #265
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Don't forget the Reman Warbird Scimitar could also fire when cloaked as well.

  6. #266

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    You don't remember? It's a major aspect of the Defiant. The Romulans gave the Federation a cloaking device under the condition it could only be used in the Gamma Quadrant and all intelligence gathered there be shared with the Romulans. After the Romulans attempted to destroy the wormhole it seems Romulan/Federation relations went cold but the Defiant still had the cloaking device. They used it in the Alpha Quadrant in 'The Way or the Warrior" to rescue the Cardassian civial government and Bashir reminded Sisko they weren't allowed to use it to which Sisko quipped back "I won't tell anybody if you won't Doctor." Eventually they seemed to use it at will in spite of the terms of the treaty. Initially there was also a Romulan Sub-Commander T'Rul played by Martha Hackett (Seska). If I recall the Dominion see right through the cloak in 'The Search' yet it continues to be used later.
    I did forget that the Defiant had a Romulan cloak (have'nt seen any DS9 episodes past season II since they were originally aired). I am watching season III on DVD right now.

    Now that you mentioned it brother Wolf, I do remember an episode were the Romulans were complaining to Sisko about the lack of information they had gotten from Starfleet and DS9 about the Gamma Quadrant.

    Did the Defiants sister ship that Jake and Nog got stuck on with the crew of cadets have a cloak as well?.

  7. #267
    Lieutenant Colonel Anubis69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    The Valiant? No. It was basically a standard Defiant class.
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  8. #268
    Chief Master Sergeant Wolf Eire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase

    Now that you mentioned it brother Wolf, I do remember an episode were the Romulans were complaining to Sisko about the lack of information they had gotten from Starfleet and DS9 about the Gamma Quadrant.
    If you're on Season 3 that episode is coming up soon. If you've forgotten it then all the better, I won't spoil it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    Did the Defiants sister ship that Jake and Nog got stuck on with the crew of cadets have a cloak as well?.
    As Anubis said, no. The Treaty of Algeron between the Romulans and Federation in 2311 which defined the neutral zone also forbade the Federation to develop or use a cloaking device. The Defiant's cloak is an exception given to the Federation in exchange for the information. Also you may or may not know that the Klingons were aligned with the Romulans in the TOS days and that is where they got their cloaking device.

    I was just watching a Season 7 episode there and the Jem'Hadar were persuing a fleet of Klingon Birds of Prey by using a tachion beam to penetrate the cloak. Don't ask me what it means but it happened!

  9. #269
    Colonel Missster.Freeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    The Treaty of Algeron between the Romulans and Federation in 2311 which defined the neutral zone also forbade the Federation to develop or use a cloaking device. The Defiant's cloak is an exception given to the Federation in exchange for the information.
    Admiral Pressman in TNG's - 'The Pegasus', said it was the biggest mistake that the Federation ever made. He also said, the treaty gave the Romulans and Klingons an advantage over the Federation. That episode was one of the highlights of a patchy final season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    Also you may or may not know that the Klingons were aligned with the Romulans in the TOS days and that is where they got their cloaking device.
    Good one Wolf. That jogged my memory. I remember watching that TOS episode eons ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    I was just watching a Season 7 episode there and the Jem'Hadar were persuing a fleet of Klingon Birds of Prey by using a tachion beam to penetrate the cloak. Don't ask me what it means but it happened!
    Is that what they used to penetrate the Defiant's cloak in 'The Search'?
    "Captain, you almost make me believe in luck."

  10. #270
    Chief Master Sergeant Wolf Eire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    Admiral Pressman in TNG's - 'The Pegasus', said it was the biggest mistake that the Federation ever made. He also said, the treaty gave the Romulans and Klingons an advantage over the Federation. That episode was one of the highlights of a patchy final season.
    Just don't mention that episode in front of Enterprise fanatics, it makes them roll in a ball on the ground in the foetal position. There's obviously a few writing reasons why they introduced this. What kind of show would it make if our heroes ship had the convenient way out of cloaking? Or indeed as an extension the whole Federation? It suits the writers for drama that we are the ones that can't cloak. I assume that's also why they introduced this notion that the Dominion are able to pick them up at least some of the time. As for the fictional reason for why the Federation would accept it, I guess they just wanted to bring peace and perhaps they used it as a big bargaining cheap at the treaty table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missster.Freeman
    Is that what they used to penetrate the Defiant's cloak in 'The Search'?
    Possibly. I have no idea what a Techion beam is or even if it's based on any real life science.

  11. #271
    Chief Master Sergeant Wolf Eire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Btw, back to Emissary, more of a production issue really. Did anyone think in hindsight how awfully fake it looks when the Cardassian ship attacks the station? I understand at the time the budget for Emissary was massive. Some of the stuff in the latter seasons of DS9 with regards to space battles was great. It's amazing how many leaps and bounds they came on in such a short space of time. I also only think that pure CGI was only introduced to Star Trek for space stuff in Voyager Season 5. While I think it worked well in space, for planetary scenes in Enterprise I think the CGI looked terrible. Particularly the big address that Archer was giving in TATV. I think it was actually better when they used models of cities for planets like Bajor, Carassia, Romulus etc. instead of the CGI they used in Ent.

  12. #272
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbase
    I did forget that the Defiant had a Romulan cloak (have'nt seen any DS9 episodes past season II since they were originally aired). I am watching season III on DVD right now.

    ??? If you're watching season 3, the very first episode of that season (the same episode that introduces the Defiant) it mentions that the Romulans are the ones who gave them the cloaking device. In fact, there was a Romulan represnetative aboard Defiant for her maiden voyage (in search of the Founders). That's a pretty big detail to miss.

  13. #273
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by knightone
    ??? If you're watching season 3, the very first episode of that season (the same episode that introduces the Defiant) it mentions that the Romulans are the ones who gave them the cloaking device. In fact, there was a Romulan represnetative aboard Defiant for her maiden voyage (in search of the Founders). That's a pretty big detail to miss.

    I just gave him season III day before yesterday and he said that he still had 3 or 4 more episodes of season II left to watch, so I doubt he has actually started season III yet.

  14. #274
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    Btw, back to Emissary, more of a production issue really. Did anyone think in hindsight how awfully fake it looks when the Cardassian ship attacks the station? I understand at the time the budget for Emissary was massive. Some of the stuff in the latter seasons of DS9 with regards to space battles was great. It's amazing how many leaps and bounds they came on in such a short space of time. I also only think that pure CGI was only introduced to Star Trek for space stuff in Voyager Season 5. While I think it worked well in space, for planetary scenes in Enterprise I think the CGI looked terrible. Particularly the big address that Archer was giving in TATV. I think it was actually better when they used models of cities for planets like Bajor, Carassia, Romulus etc. instead of the CGI they used in Ent.
    The special effects were kind of cheesy those first few seasons of DS9 (alot like they were on TNG). Like you mentioned Wolf, they did improve alot by the time the series was ending. But even in the last season some of those scenes where they showed multiple ships headed for battle against the Dominion, the animated graphics were pretty lousy compared to what they can do now. It still did'nt take away from the show what so ever.

    I remeber reading a few years back that DS9 and especially TNG were and still are the most expensive TV series per episode to ever be produced. They were worth every penny!.

  15. #275

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by knightone
    ??? If you're watching season 3, the very first episode of that season (the same episode that introduces the Defiant) it mentions that the Romulans are the ones who gave them the cloaking device. In fact, there was a Romulan represnetative aboard Defiant for her maiden voyage (in search of the Founders). That's a pretty big detail to miss.

    I spoke to soon, Brother Fifth was right he just loaned me his season III DVD set. After having my memory refreshed I do remember the Defiant having the Romulan cloak,

  16. #276

    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Eire
    Btw, back to Emissary, more of a production issue really. Did anyone think in hindsight how awfully fake it looks when the Cardassian ship attacks the station? I understand at the time the budget for Emissary was massive. Some of the stuff in the latter seasons of DS9 with regards to space battles was great. It's amazing how many leaps and bounds they came on in such a short space of time. I also only think that pure CGI was only introduced to Star Trek for space stuff in Voyager Season 5. While I think it worked well in space, for planetary scenes in Enterprise I think the CGI looked terrible. Particularly the big address that Archer was giving in TATV. I think it was actually better when they used models of cities for planets like Bajor, Carassia, Romulus etc. instead of the CGI they used in Ent.
    I agree with you and Fifth, the special effects were blocky and kind of primitive compared to what we see today. But it was not without its charm either. They did well with the special effects if just one or a few ships were involved, but when they started getting into the Dominion war were we had those awesome fleet battles the special effects showed its limitations.

    I also agree with you about some of the special effects on Enterprise being crappy considering that they had much better CGI technology to work with compared to DS9 or TNG. The budget they had to produce Enterprise was alot smaller than what they had for DS9, TNG and even Voyager, and boy did it show!.

  17. #277
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    [QUOTE=Starbase some of the special effects on Enterprise were crappy considering that they had much better CGI technology to work with compared to DS9 or TNG. The budget they had to produce Enterprise was alot smaller than what they had for DS9, TNG and even Voyager, and boy did it show!.[/QUOTE]


    They did seem to cheap out on Enterprise as far as special effects go. I still give major props for the whole Xinidi story arc they had, otherwise it was a crap fest.

  18. #278
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Ok, let's finish up season I episode discussion. I will list a few of my favorite season I episodes, feel free to add to the list if there are any you would like to discuss.

    'Q-Less'....This was Q's introduction to DS9. Vash (Picards old fling, sort of) ends up on DS9 trying to escape from Q. Q in the meantime wants Vash back no matter what. Do you think Q wanted Vash so bad because he knew that she and Picard had something, jealous Q?. Quark and Vash have some good give and take with each other while Quark arranges an auction for her.

    'Battle Lines'....This was one of my favorite season I episodes. Sisko and Kira are stuck on a planet were two side are in ages old battle against each other but cannot kill each other because they just come back to life. Great stuff.

    'The Story Teller'....A very strange fantasy type episode where Rumpelstiltskin comes to life after O'Brien reads the stroy to his daughter.

    'The Foresaken'....Lwaxana arrives on DS9 as an ambassdor and takes a liking to Odo, much to Odo's chagrin (great and funny stuff). Also a computer virus reaps havoc on the stations computers, making things go haywire all over the station.

  19. #279
    Captain Commander Ivanova's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by the Fifth Race
    'The Foresaken'....Lwaxana arrives on DS9 as an ambassdor and takes a liking to Odo, much to Odo's chagrin (great and funny stuff). Also a computer virus reaps havoc on the stations computers, making things go haywire all over the station.
    Thanks T5R for reminding me about Lwaxana, Majel really got her teeth into that part didn't she!!!
    http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5...phugrodeg1.gif "Ce qui ressemble a l'amour est toujours de l'amour." - Tristan Bernard

  20. #280
    Colonel the Fifth Race's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deep Space 9 superior

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander Ivanova
    Thanks T5R for reminding me about Lwaxana, Majel really got her teeth into that part didn't she!!!
    LOL....My pleasure CI!. Lwaxana gets a bad rap from alot of Star Trek fans, but I really enjoyed her episodes on TNG and especially DS9!. I especially liked the episode 'The Foresaken' simply because she was so relentless in her persuit of Odo. Seeing Odo embarrassed was priceless, plus it was a good episode overall.

    I bet Majel had fun with all the Lwaxana episodes.

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