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  1. #61
    Chief Master Sergeant Historian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ???

    And I agree with Chaka's_Mum It's not the end of the ship. Far from that.

  2. #62
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Historian
    I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ???
    I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

    There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

    Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

    Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.

  3. #63
    Chief Master Sergeant Historian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka's_Mum
    I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

    There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

    Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

    Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.
    Ho, I completely agree with you there. It wouldn't have had the same impact at all. What is great about this episode, is that it's all there, suggested, but not entirely showed. And we all know what are Sam's feelings for Jack.

    Actually, the way I thought the situation would be resolved between them, at the end of the show, was Sam asking Jack about that fishing trip he always threatened to take her to, and if the proposition was still on.

    Suggestion, suggestion, suggestion. That's what I like about Sam and Jack.

    I was just curious about how she really felt, and how she said it.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Just watched this episode and saw the incredibly sad ending with Martouf - have since then spent the last couple of hours or so searching for any information on his return to no avail

    He was one of my favourite characters, pretty much the only Tok'ra other than Jacob that I really felt comfortable with and was a good recurring character, and I couldnt believe it when he died - it hit me a lot harder than I ever would have imagined. Guess it shows how gripping Stargate is.

    They built up the character so well, especially after the whole ordeal in the hell moon - I couldnt believe it when he died

    Is it true they were going to bring him back later in season 5 or so (I'm only up to season 4) but couldnt because the actor was unavailable - and as a result, we'll never see the martouf character again?

    I guess I just need to wait a while for my awful memory to kick in, forget he ever died, and destroy the DVD

    Does anyone know exactly what the reasons were for his death? Did the actor just not want to do it anymore, did they want to get rid of a main character and he was the unlucky one picked, or what?

    Other than that, I liked the idea of the episode, just sad about Martouf

  5. #65
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Abydosian
    Just watched this episode and saw the incredibly sad ending with Martouf - have since then spent the last couple of hours or so searching for any information on his return to no avail
    I'm assuming that you really, really want to know the answer to this, so here it is - in spoiler tags for those who don't want to know, of course.

    Spoiler:
    The Omnipedia has the details - but I can confirm that (sadly) this is the last we see of Martouf (apart from brief appearances in 'Previously on Stargate SG1' recaps).


    Quote Originally Posted by Abydosian
    He was one of my favourite characters, pretty much the only Tok'ra other than Jacob that I really felt comfortable with and was a good recurring character, and I couldnt believe it when he died - it hit me a lot harder than I ever would have imagined. Guess it shows how gripping Stargate is.
    I know what you mean. That moment of 'ship is a very neat distraction from the main plot - 'find the Za'tarc'. The discovery of a 'Za'tarc Alert!' reading on Sam and Jack completely sidetracks the whole thing, and it's only at the last possible minute that they realise that there is one person on the base who could well have been compromised - but hasn't been tested...

    It's a tidy diversion - and it really does ramp up the impact of the discovery that Martouf is the Za'tarc. Until that moment, it probably never occurred to anyone even to consider that possibility. Anise, of course, hasn't been off-base at any time while all this brain-tampering has been going on - so she's okay. But what about Martouf?



    It was sad to see him go - Martouf has been a fab recurring character. But, if he had to go, at least he got a really good dramatic exit. He could have been simply referred to in passing ('oh, by the way - did I tell you that Martouf snuffed it recently?'), or just vanished, never to appear again.

  6. #66
    Captain divcon's Avatar
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    Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka's_Mum
    I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

    There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

    Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

    Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.
    Oh yes, you are so right. TPTB show Sam's side in later season, mainly Season 7 (Grace). As you can see my name is DIVCON (DIVide and CONquer) so yes I love this episode. I was such a touching scene in Jack's flashback. Just the look between them almost melted the TV. Apparently there was supposed to be words said but the actors decided a look was worth a thousand words and wern't they so right. Although I would love to know what was supposed to have been said between them.

    Also in the room with Freya when Sam was prompting Jack the look in her eyes conveyed a world of feelings, feelings she had for Jack. I agree that Jack was still trying to protect Carter from any fall-out if the wrong people heard what had been said in the room.

    On the subject of Martouf, yes the host did die that day but the Tok'ra symbiote Lantash did survive but later died Season 5 episode 16 ' Last Stand'. So Sam had to watch him die twice, first Martouf whom Sam had grown fond of and then Lantash whom Sam still had Jolinar's feelings for him.

    Anyway, thats my say. See you soon.
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  7. #67
    Second Lieutenant Commander Aegir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    great directing from Martin Wood (never doubt him) and it is quite messy when Martouf gets shot by the two guards I like that part because I never liked Martouf
    "I ask you, what could possibly be in my eye that would explain this"

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  8. #68
    Second Lieutenant zats's Avatar
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    Zat Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt G
    I know who Casper the Ghost is, I remember watching him on breakfast TV as a kid!

    Question is, which Stargate bad guy are you comparing him with?
    Any number of the 'Big!Bad!Bully!Run!Away!' threats that were minor sensations and then faded into obscurity. The Ree'tou, the zatarcs...threats that were hyped for a few eps and then sort of disappeared without much nudging on the SGC's part.

  9. #69
    Lieutenant Colonel Matt G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Right!

  10. #70
    Second Lieutenant Perriman33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    It got a bit mushy just after the middle but I really liked the idea of this episode. Jack and sam looked a bit uncomfortable telling everyone what happened and I thoght the idea of the za'tarc was good. Had me guessing right to the end anyway. How could they kill martouf him and sam are the only ones that smile in the show, he even managed one at the end.
    Those small weapons were cool as well, pity we never saw much said about them!

  11. #71
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    Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Historian
    I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ???

    And I agree with Chaka's_Mum It's not the end of the ship. Far from that.
    Well not only do we know from future eps how Sam feels, we know from this ep too:

    Sam: The machine thinks that we have false memories, but we don't. We were lying.
    Jack: I wasn't lying.
    Sam: Okay. You left something out.
    Jack: No, I didn't.
    Sam: Sir, when you wouldn't leave me, are you sure there wasn't something else that you're not admitting?
    Jack: What are you talkin' about?
    Sam: Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....
    Jack: Oh! (Pause) Oh, that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Perriman33
    It got a bit mushy just after the middle but I really liked the idea of this episode. Jack and sam looked a bit uncomfortable telling everyone what happened and I thoght the idea of the za'tarc was good. Had me guessing right to the end anyway. How could they kill martouf him and sam are the only ones that smile in the show, he even managed one at the end.
    Those small weapons were cool as well, pity we never saw much said about them!
    But we do get to see that weapon again in Chimera...

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  12. #72
    Major Hulabaloo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Such a good ep, such a sad ending.

    At least in this ep they get it out of the way.

  13. #73
    Captain Beatrice Otter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka's_Mum
    I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

    There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

    Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

    Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.
    The only way they could have made two confessions work (and not have the second one feel like an anti-climax) would be to intercut between the two. Jack says something, cut to Sam saying something similar, cut back to Jack, etc.
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  14. #74
    First Lieutenant Chaka's_Mum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    That's certainly a possibility; though I think I'd find that a tad heavy handed and perhaps a bit long-winded too.

    I think they got the focus right with this one - primarily because the confession has so much more impact coming from Jack alone. The fact that Sam's feelings are largely left to our imaginations is a nice touch. We know that she's confessed to something that occurs between her and Jack - but we don't actually know what it is. We only know that Jack has feelings for her which are deemed 'inappropriate' by their circumstances.

    Now, it's a fairly safe bet (what am I saying? It's pretty much a given) that Sam feels the same way about Jack. However, this has been left open to interpretation. Sam could simply be confessing (and later prompts Jack to confess) that there are inappropriate feelings in the mix - but only on his side - which were, by tacit agreement between them both, not to be referred to in future; until they were overtly expressed by Jack during the mission.

    Yep, it's an unlikely theory - but I like the fact that the situation leaves me able to propose it.

  15. #75
    Captain gwenhwyfar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice
    The only way they could have made two confessions work (and not have the second one feel like an anti-climax) would be to intercut between the two. Jack says something, cut to Sam saying something similar, cut back to Jack, etc.
    I had always thought it was a little weird that they did not show Sam's confession (given that SHE was the one who demanded a retest). But when you put it that way, I have to agree. It would have just been like they were repeating the same scene over again. But it would have been kind of interesting (though not as dramatic/emotional) to have both confessions.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    err..an okay episode pity about Martouf but what you going to do about it ehh! Thank God Jack and Sam arent Zatarcs and they finaly admitted their were feelings for each other even though they never talked about it since! lol

  17. #77
    Airman Ascendant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Actually, when Sam said that it wouldn't "leave the room" she meant it literally. Every night when everyone else has left the base they run back to that room, lock the doors and get on with the lovin'.

    And speaking of the lovin', what's with the folks who hate Annise/Freya for her supposed lack of clothing? I think it's just a contrast - because of all the uniforms and stuff, the SGC usually looks more virginal than a fundamentalist private highschool. Her costume in this episode was kinda un-Tok'ra-ish, but her other ones were neat. It's not at all unusual to see people wearing clothing of that sparseness in real life, especially in hot areas like amusement parks and desert planets.

    She was kind of bland, but reoccurring characters always get my support. I don't get it...she was almost a major character for like four episodes, then just vanishes into nowhereland after this. If they were going to focus so much on introducing a new character, wouldn't they have some explanation for why she vanished? It's like her only purpose was to get turned down by Jack so we could be introduced to the Jack/Sam ship.

    Maybe that's all she was there for...to fake us out into thinking that Jack was gonna go for her. I dunno. Maybe Annise really IS evil, which is why Martouf wasn't tested. It seems ludicrous that they'd just "forget" him. His death was really dramatic. Poor guy.

    Anyway...neat episode, and pivotal. In the mush-starved world of Stargate, a declaration of love is a big deal.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Maybe that's all she was there for...to fake us out into thinking that Jack was gonna go for her. I dunno.
    Actually, she was there because some executive at the time had the 'bright idea' that Stargate needed a Seven of Nine character. Some sex bimbo who'd wear skimpy clothing and get the demograph of teen boys all hot and bothered and keen to watch. Seven of Nine had just been introduced in Voyager and was getting some very hot press attention. The executive wing of TPTB jumped wholeheartedly onto the bandwagon.

    Fortunately, Gaters proved more sophisticated, hated the character and the tacky attempt at ratings she represented, and she was dumped after only a few episodes.

    The writers even poked fun at him and that decision in Wormhole Xtreme:

    Scene: Martin, and two bigwigs move away from the catering truck towards a limo. I think one is Hank Cohen from MGM.

    COHEN: You know I was thinking, you know what this show needs? A sexy female alien. Trust me.

    MARTIN: (unenthusiastic) Yeah.
    Not sure if this Hank Cohen was the executive in question. But, anyway, I hear whoever he was, to his credit, he took the joke quite well.

    Actually, for myself, I was never that bothered by Anise/Freya. I found her character quite interesting at times and if she'd been introduced and used in a different way that had highlighted less on the appalling clothing and more on her attitude, the differences between her host/snake characters (which were more marked than in other Tok'ra we saw) etc, I'd have been very happy to see more of her. As it was, she was seriously undermined by her role as teen tease.

    I have to say I didn't even find the clothing sexy. Granted, I'm not a teen boy , but all the same. The first costume she wore was kind of cute, I thought, but dear god that grey, plastic molded thing she wore in this episode...ugh.

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  19. #79
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    I thought this episode was pretty good.....its nice to see they are dealing with sam and jack's relationship again

  20. #80
    Airman Ascendant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Divide and Conquer (405)

    Quote Originally Posted by Albion
    Actually, she was there because some executive at the time had the 'bright idea' that Stargate needed a Seven of Nine character. Some sex bimbo who'd wear skimpy clothing and get the demograph of teen boys all hot and bothered and keen to watch. Seven of Nine had just been introduced in Voyager and was getting some very hot press attention. The executive wing of TPTB jumped wholeheartedly onto the bandwagon.
    I dunno. I guess I just have a hard time believing that the People in Charge would be that...shallow? Create a character exclusively for sex appeal? I mean, I'm sure it was a consideration (frankly Sam is fairly boyish and Janet is too maternal), but it doesn't seem like it would be the exclusive drive to creating a character that's so useful to the plot.

    It seemed like they made her to be more unique than anything, at least for Stargate. I can't say that I like the character, exactly (she's too distant and Tok'ra-ish) but I like the idea of the character. And more than anything, I hate that the integrity of the plot was sacrificed to give her a swift and silent ejection from the show due to audiences misreading her as a thinly veiled attempt to woo the more base instincts of a certain demographic. I mean, let's face it...she doesn't even get killed offscreen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albion
    I have to say I didn't even find the clothing sexy. Granted, I'm not a teen boy , but all the same. The first costume she wore was kind of cute, I thought, but dear god that grey, plastic molded thing she wore in this episode...ugh.
    I agree. Very un-Tok'ra-ish. As an ex-teen boy, I would be a fair judge. Her first two costumes (or was it one? I don't remember) were more stylish than slutty, like Desert Vogue with really cool boots. The one she wore in this episode makes me think that she has Seven of Nine unconscious in a closet somewhere. I'm going to discontinue that line of thought before it gets me in trouble.

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