The Other Side (402)

[Falcon Horus]

I will agree that we know too little to be sure. I think it would have been better if we had gone back to that planet somehow or had maybe revisited the story at some point.

All we can do is assume, and view it from our different point of views.

You do make a compelling argument though. I certainly appreciate the thought and hope to see you more around.

If noone has said it yet, by the way, welcome to Gateworld!

[AleksisMi]

hurray and hello

[Xaeden]

but they send living breething people on suicidal bombing runs when thier world seems to have radio control for drones and weapons, the question is.... why do we assume the breeders are any less evil?

The guys in the bunker have technological superiority, but dwindling resources, so just because they had battle capable drones doesn't mean the other side did, too. The other side has unmanned reconnaissance drones, but those can be designed more simply as the importance of dodging enemy fire is less important in its case. Fighters and bombers, on the other hand, would naturally require a higher degree of remote control to operate in combat and that interface technology may be something that the other side either does not have or, even, is unwilling to use because of the damage it does to its users. Granted, O'neill was told that it was safe for limited use and, if that was true, it would mean it wouldn't be a problem the other side because they have larger numbers and can thus cycle pilots out before it affects them, but I would take that claim with a grain of salt given the source was desperate to sell Earth on the technology.

Also you're defining sending pilots into a heavily defended area to deliver their payloads as evil when that's something we do all the time. You go on to say that it was a suicide mission, but I see no evidence to suggest that the plan wasn't for the pilots to deliver their payload and then retreat. They had a low escape rate with O'neill and Teal'c helping to man the drones, but normally the bunker's drone fleet is understaffed, so that may normally be higher.

[AleksisMi]

so your saying... we arent evil for murdering people with bombs.... even if they oppose us... well as long as we are morally justified for murdering people for survival and politics and religion and resource allocation

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

AleksisMi, are you asking about the motivations displayed in the episode, or are you asking for a justification for war in general (although you clearly believe there is no justification for war)?

Seaboe

[AleksisMi]

im combining the argument, since were judging the episode on our morals

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Then no matter how I reply, you will challenge it. I'd rather not play that game.

Seaboe

[AleksisMi]

ok fair enough.. il say it... chances are the cloners were evil, but often in stargate, each planet has single a main type of people on it, with minor if any major differences their are, they are often down to personal choices rather then over themed differences, thats why im saying chances are both sides in that conflict were fairly evil, thiers nothing to hint at either side actually being good.

name one thing that implies the breeders are actually good guys in the episode other then striking second in the war,

[Xaeden]

so your saying... we arent evil for murdering people with bombs.... even if they oppose us... well as long as we are morally justified for murdering people for survival and politics and religion and resource allocation

You're moving the parameters of the discussion. You originally said it was evil to send people to bomb a target in the way they were doing it, now you're saying it's evil to bomb enemy targets, period. Which is your position?

I thought you were talking about the "evil" of sending pilots into a defended zone where they may be killed because you realized that they weren't actually killing human enemies; they were wearing down a shield. Their intention may have been to kill them when the shield went down and it would certainly be difficult to know the exact time to stop bombing before the shield went down so nobody died even if that's what they wanted. Nevertheless, expressing concern for those lives is different than what you did, which was talk about the morality of sending the pilots to a location where they might lose their lives.

My question also wasn't meant to draw comparison to real world bombings that have no concern for civilian life. The hypothetical was focused solely on the act of sending a pilot into an area where there is the potential (however high) of them being shot down while trying to reach a target. For the purpose of that discussion the target doesn't matter, so it could be an unmanned installation if it helps to keep the spotlight off that separate matter. The issue is, very simply, unless they're sending people against their will or are lying to them about the risks, why is it evil to send them into battle? And before you say, well, maybe they are being forced; there's no evidence of that in the show and that's not what you previously said made them evil.

[AleksisMi]

ok... lets look at it, murder is considered a act of evil, sending people to go to their death potentially is theoritical act of evil too, combining the two together doesnt exactly neutralize the factor it is evil for both ends of it

[AleksisMi]

my main point is we do not know that either side was good in this scenario, we dont even know if we helped the lesser evil, we assume we did, but the whole point is to analyze the whole episodes scenario, and the truth is, we dont know if we did the right thing, we only presume we did because of our comparison to our own history, but that takes alot of presumptions from one basic description, the gouuld are breeders, and they are not .... good.... though they could become good with time as individuals perhaps and perhaps even have queens become good like hte tokra queen

[Falcon Horus]

ok... lets look at it, murder is considered a act of evil, sending people to go to their death potentially is theoritical act of evil too, combining the two together doesnt exactly neutralize the factor it is evil for both ends of it

You are saying that Generals or Colonels in the military are murderers for ordering their soldiers, who know the risk to their lives, into battle where they might or could loose their life.

You mention it in your second post above that we view these episodes through our knowledge of what happened in our pasts. My grandparents were alive during WWII. My grandmother's family had to flee from the Germans when they occupied Flanders.

To me, the people in the underground bunkers wanted purity in their lineage. The similarity to an Arian German quite apparent. The perfect specimen according to Hitler (even though he was dark-haired). They didn't want to be tainted by inferior DNA. They didn't want diversity. They wanted the same and everything else was repulsive to them. Just look how they responded to Teal'c and it wasn't because he was a Jaffa (this time).

Does that automatically the bad side -- from my POV, it does, because it means they are capable of atrocities towards anyone who doesn't look or act the same. From turning them into second class citizens to all out genocide. Our past, present and future is full of examples where this occurs on a daily basis.

[BethHG]

my main point is we do not know that either side was good in this scenario, we dont even know if we helped the lesser evil, we assume we did, but the whole point is to analyze the whole episodes scenario, and the truth is, we dont know if we did the right thing, we only presume we did because of our comparison to our own history, but that takes alot of presumptions from one basic description, the gouuld are breeders, and they are not .... good.... though they could become good with time as individuals perhaps and perhaps even have queens become good like hte tokra queen

I think there is a whole lot of speculation on your part about this episode, and I don't think it truly is about this episode. It is obvious that you think that war is evil in general. The fact is that wars happen.

As for whether O'Neill was right in what he did, maybe not. He was acting on his anger on being duped. He didn't know that he directly was killing a person with the drone plane he was flying, and that was wrong in his opinion ( and I agree). Did he take his personal retaliation too far--perhaps. Was that the whole SGC, or even the whole SG1 team? No, it wasn't.

I also agree with FH, I believe that this episode was written as to be a comparison to the German Aryans. In this episode, the Eurodans planned on poisoning the whole surface of their world in order to eliminate the undesirable people, and then they did! What did the Nazis do- they killed those that weren't "genetically perfect" in their eyes. So, the Eurodans ruined a whole planet to get their own way.

Whether or not the breeders are evil ( really don't like using that word, but I am using it because you did), is moot. Nothing is more evil than genocide. Killing a whole people because you don't agree with how they reproduce indiscriminately is crazy. And that is what the Eurodans wanted to accomplish.

[AleksisMi]

sadly it seems our world is a bit on the edge of evil too at times.. the choices we have are vast and very dangerous to us and others sadly :/

https://qz.com/1327804/its-impossibl...ts-fun-to-try/

[BethHG]

sadly it seems our world is a bit on the edge of evil too at times.. the choices we have are vast and very dangerous to us and others sadly :/

https://qz.com/1327804/its-impossibl...ts-fun-to-try/

It has always been that way, unfortunately.

To get back on topic, I do think Stargate does approach these topics of morality very well most of the time.