Last edited by GateWorld; July 3rd, 2016 at 11:43 PM.
Sorry, just wanted to get your attention with that title.
Ok, I know this should probably go in the Season Four forums, but I want to discuss this and, seriously, who the hell reads the Season Four forums? Nobody's gonna notice my post there. Anyway, on to the point.
Thread moved into episode discussion thread by Feli. Reason: it is a discussion about the episode The Other Side. It's also a very interesting discussion which will be noticed here just as much.
I just watched the episode The Other Side. A great episode, IMO, with the right mix of comedy, drama and action. But that's not the point! My point relates to their reactions after discovering they were infact allying themselves with the "bad guys".
After discovering what was going on, Jack took it upon himself to not only shoot down a large number of Euronda's ships, and then crash his own into their base. Now OK, I think we'll agree that this was a great "yes! go you!" moment for all free-thinking people of earth, but still... Jack didn't just refuse to help the Eurondans defeat their enemy, he defeated them himself! Does anybody else have a problem with this? Interfering with the happenings of another planet and killing people (the ships were unmanned, but the kamikazi into their base resulted in the death of that blonde chick I'd taken a liking too).
OK, so they were racists, so lets pretend for one minute that their misguided political choices means they deserve such a violent execution: Jack then goes on to A) smash the crystal which contained the key to all of Euronda's amazing technology, B) kill the only man who could recreate that technology.
So not only did he go against Daniel's wishes and, instead of bringing them peace, poured fire on their gasoline, he also went against his own wishes and failed in their mission to retrieve valuable technology to defeat the Goa'uld with.
Anybody else feel this is wrong as hell?
Last edited by Feli; May 22nd, 2004 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Merged with episode thread
They weren't just racist, they were trying to commit genocide (if that is the right word...either way, you know what I mean). Still think they deserve to live?
"When all else fails, there's always delusion." - Conan O'Brien
genocide is the right term. the SGC does not have a "prime directive". jack is a military man from a black ops background and is trained almost specifically for that kind of work. the fact that he went against daniels wishes means nothing. daniel is not military and would not understand such a decision even on earth. even carter who is military seemed to have some trouble with part of what he did.
daniel would not have been able to carry out such a difficult decision, and thats why he's not in command of the team and jack is.
the nazi's made some pretty big advances in technology in their day too. would you consider the decision to neutralize the threat they posed (not to mention the atrocities they committed) to be secondary to the advances they made? if you had the choice between salvaging technology, that wasn't earned or developed by you and saving millions of lives, with the potential sacrifice of a fraction of that, which choice would you take. what is more valueable, human lives or a fancy microwave?
personally i think he did the only thing he could do, the only thing he knew how to do in such a situation. i'd probably do the same. part of it may have been instinct.
personally i think you're only upset because he killed the blonde, aren't ya?
if it makes you feel any better, PDL was the director of that episode and he killed of his own girlfriends character in it, and didn't have any problems with that.
and you could have posted this in the recliner of rage thread. it fits. (shameless push)
Well, that depends. Will the fancy microwave save millions of lives on earth? Or, hey, lets say we let those humans live while taking the microwave creator hostage anyway. Surely that's a logical choice?Originally Posted by stargate barbie
I still think Jack made a bad call. I'm a total Jackson-style bleeding heart, and I think those people deserved peace in spite of their prejudice. Morons need to be helped, not blown to bits.
We're agreed Jack did the right thing in working against them, i'm certain of that. But still, he also screwed earth over by missing out on a great chance to grab a flashy new microwave.
People like that just dont change. They will pretty much always be like that, even if they appear to "change" on the outside. I'm not saying people can't learn and change, but they were willing to start a WAR, kill probably millions of the enemy, cause the deaths of their own, and still not see the errors of their ways.Originally Posted by Hostile
"When all else fails, there's always delusion." - Conan O'Brien
Of-course, yes, you're right. But chances are 99% of these guys were born into this life, and it isnt necessarily a life they're commited to. Perhaps they just hadn't had a chance to experience it any other way. Jack had these guys by the nutsack: he could have forced them into peace through their Heavy Water deal, and got all those flashy microwaves. Instead he killed them all and got nothing but a large body count on his conscience.Originally Posted by petzke_42
It's irritating me
This episode left me slightly unsettled. I suppose not every moral dilemma could be tied in a neat package like Scorched Earth.
Jack's sense of moral outrage undoubtedly played a large part in his decision-making. Although I agree Alar was a "bad guy," I am uncomfortable with the idea of Jack being the sole judge and jury of another life, however despicable it might have been. On the other hand, perhaps, his willingness to carry the burden (of making difficult choices) is precisely what affords everyone else the luxury in intellectual moralizing.Originally Posted by Hostile
This is a very valid point. To re-use an example from up thread, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan made "explorations" in technology and medicine often via atrocious methods. Yet the Allies carefully preserved those discoveries, some of which would later aid the saving of lives. So knowledge, however nefariously obtained, could be used for goodness if in the proper hand.Originally Posted by Hostile
A relevant question here, though, is if it was possible to acquire Eurondan technology without the aid of Alar. If he held the key, he would most likely be turned over to NID custody. This means the advanced weapon system would be under the control of NID, a decidedly not "proper hand."
Faced with the dire consequences, Jack made a judgment call and chose the lesser of two evils.
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde
I love this episode for the struggle with morality that it presents, and the way it affects the members of SG-1. Here are these people offering SG-1 everything they’ve been seeking during their travels, and all they want in return is some heavy water. Sounds too good to be true, and thus makes for a great episode.
The Jack/Daniel conflict in this episode is probably one of the best ever portrayed in the series. Jack is so deadly serious about going through with the exchange without regard for the motives of the Eurondans that he would go so far as to alienate Daniel to get it. Daniel is always having to battle that military aspect of Jack, but in this episode, it reached an apex that hadn’t been seen before, IMO.
As far as Jack’s decision to turn on the Eurondans, I think he was disgusted with the fact that he let opportunity override his better judgment to inquire about the war. He came to the ultimate realization of whom he was actually dealing with which led to the final outcome. These people were the Nazis incarnate and Alar was the personification of Hitler (or a hypothetical son of Hitler since it was actually his father that masterminded the planned extermination of the “Breeders”). Jack knew exactly what he was offering the Eurondans in the fact that he cut Sam off without the usual sarcasm. He knew the military applications of Deuterium and heavy water, yet he consciously looked past that in order to advance Earth’s agenda. This introduction of heavy water also parallels WWII in the fact that German control of a plant in Norway that produced heavy water had to ultimately be part of their plan to produce a nuclear weapon. Luckily, Allied forces disrupted this operation. The writers must have researched this aspect of the story or otherwise why would they have chosen heavy water as the item of trade. They could have just used the good old standby, uranium or plutonium, which people automatically equate with a nuclear bomb, but can also be used as an energy source.
I don’t have a problem with what Jack did to Alar. He warned him not to follow, though probably knowing he would still do so to save himself. Alar had no regard for all those other people he was leaving behind that had followed his leadership to their death (another Hitler parallel). If he had allowed him to come through the gate and live, what use would we have with him? I doubt Alar himself knew how to engineer the technology we wanted, and I would rather not have my tax dollars going to detain “Hitler” indefinitely. It was a little more disturbing what happened to the other Eurondans. They may not have all been as adamant as Alar and his close associates in the destruction of the “Breeders” based solely on the fact that they didn’t like the way they reproduced. They may have been induced to fight more because they had to because of the decisions and propaganda of others, and then again they may have all been as bloodthirsty as Alar.
I mean how did they ever expect to win except with a number of nuclear weapons. You would have already thought that they would have been using this tactic along with the gassing of the planet long before their means of producing nuclear material was cut off when the area around the ocean was captured. You would think since they had the foresight to build that expansive underground complex, they would have also been developing and stocking nuclear weapons based on their level of technological advance which was something like 100 years more advanced than Earth’s based on Carter’s estimates. I know the bomb was not operational until the end of WWII, but these people should have already possessed the technology, and if they were so hell bent on exterminating those they felt were inferior, then why did they not go all out to win when they started the war? Unless it was interrupted by the preemptive strike, and thus all their preparations were not complete so they retreated underground hoping that poisoning the atmosphere alone would wipeout the Breeders. I’m not defending them, but it makes you wonder.
This war obviously had been going on for over thirty years. With or without SG-1’s interference, the Eurondans were doomed anyway. Their shields would have eventually failed, and I’m assuming the heavy water was also linked with being able to maintain the people in stasis so they would have had to awaken them, and they would have all starved to death anyway or died in the bombing, refusing to surrender. They were going to win or die trying in futility based on the fact they did not want to leave that world when given the opportunity to do so by SG-1. They so wanted the Breeders exterminated that even separation by being on different planets was still not good enough or at least for Alar it was not. Who knows what the others might have chosen given the option.
I hate to call Jack callous because of his life experiences because he is passionate about the defense of Earth and his friends, but here he let his apathy of the situation cause him even more grief. He had to have felt guilty about his treatment of Daniel after realizing his error in judgment. His decision at the time to kill Alar and allow for the destruction of the Eurondans was fueled by anger, but the action is bound to affect him later. So in saying that I agree with this observation of Jack’s character:
This same conflict arises in "Unnatural Selection" in season 6 which I also like for the story it presents.Originally Posted by Liebestraume
I like those episodes that tend to make you think more, and this one was interesting because it wasn’t resolved in a nice “happy” way.
Yeah my rambling is probably more than you cared to read (if you even made it this far), but it’s just my two cents on what I thought about the episode since it was shown on tv today.
Good episode. I like the trades of heavy water and O'Neill didn't care what happened to them as long as he got what he wanted. I also liked those pilot vessels!
i think thats the basic point of the episode. stargate seems to like doing episodes in which its left up to the viewer who was right or wrong. not everything in life is black and white. they like to show that SG-1 is not infallible and that there isn't always a "right" way to resolve a problem. they also like to show that "resolved" problems have consequences (whether we see them on screen or not). but onloy sometimes, like when they can make a good story out of itOriginally Posted by Liebestraume
this is part of why i really like this episode.
I thought Jack's go at Daniel was a little OTT, but, apart from that, a good episode.
I've read the earlier posts about the moral implications involved in this ep., and thought about the fact that both America and Russia collected German scientists after WW2. The US space program came directly out of the V2 program, and no-one in the world seems to have had a problem with that.
I think that, if this had been RL, O'Neill would have taken the tecnology, not destroyed it.
Same here. Thanks for the thoughtful review. I really enjoyed reading it.Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde
I was under the impression the crystal comp full of tech was smashed entirely by accident when i watched the episode.
Besides, Elar's people were going to die no matter what; they tried to commit genocide for crying outloud. I'm not saying all of them deserved death but O'Neill was just trying to repair the damage he'd done to the breeders earlier.
What did suprise me was the letting Elar smash straight into the iris. Personally I think he should have been clearer that he was going to close the iris and Alar would die but thats just me. It did result in a nice "Evil Jack" Moment.
Banner By JME2
It's the horns of the devil.
Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad you and one other brave unnamed soul were able to wade through that novella. I really like this episode and had seen it that day and thought why not take three or more hours to toss out my interpretation for the record. I haven't put that much thought into writing since the history research papers and English lit. analysis papers I spat out in college. Brought back memories of staying up all night (I am a big procrastinator) writing them until I had to go to class the next day.Originally Posted by Liebestraume
I like most episodes of Stargate, but I find those that cause you to evaluate the situation, decisions, and outcome more closely, such as “The Other Side”, to be somewhat more engrossing. Of course, I like those that don’t tend to tax the brain too much, too!
why do the people that can help us always turn out to be evil.
Last edited by Selmak; July 26th, 2004 at 06:51 PM.
They had UAV's that was cool.
I still can never get the character of Clayton out of my head... I watched way too much Benson when I was a kid...
O'Neill: "Well, we'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it."
Bra'tac: "No, the bridge is too well guarded."
I couldn't much get into this episode, partly because I couldn't in my mind suspend the feeling that I was watching Rene Auberjonois as Odo. It didn't happen to me with Marina in Watergate, and I couldn't tell you why I couldn't get into the character, but it just was.
I guess I liked the concept of this episode more than I liked it's execution. Jack seemed to be a little out of character, and I thought that the actions didn't carry much.
As for what's been stated earlier in the thred about using Nazi technology despite the means that were used to get it, we did. A lot of truely horrifying things happened at Mittlebau-Dora which had a direct impact on our space program. Men that were idealized in the 1950s and 1960s in the states, who claimed that they didn't know anything about what the SS was doing there.
On the flip side, nearly all of the medical experimentation done in the death camps is useless. Modern medicine does not have to deal with the moral problems because the methodology and basis was so mixed in fantasy.