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  1. #61
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Though i am wondering why there was no remembering of the 'moral wrong turn he did' later on..

  2. #62
    Chief Master Sergeant HelloVelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Anyone for another helping of hydroponically grown yeast?

    Rating: 5/10

    Full Review: http://stargatesummer.blogspot.com/2...ther-side.html
    My attempt to watch every episode of SG-1 and Atlantis this summer:
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  3. #63
    First Lieutenant Butlersgate's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    This episode shows the team in depth on a moral level. We see Daniel at this best with his questioning of Euronda’s intentions and position in the war almost right away. When he keeps on getting interrupted by Jack you see a tension there that has only been brushed upon in past episodes. Jack seems to show how he really feels about the situation but you get the feeling that he just wants the technology without asking too many questions. Later finding out that he was suspicious and when Alar tells him that it would be best if Teal’c should not return because he is “different”.

    When I first heard that I thought that this episode was really heavy for a stargate episode on a moral level. This interests me as it forces the characters to react in such a way that they will have to eventually show their true feelings towards this situation. Throughout the episode the focus is mainly on Daniel and Jack but you can sense Teal’cs disapproval and suspicion without him saying more then a couple of words. I think that this shows Teal’c at his best in terms of saying a thousand words with just facial movement. Sam appears to be put in the middle of this morally unstable situation and she looks like she agrees with Daniel but feels obligated to support Jack because Earth needs the technology and I think this shows us how torn she can be between her team mates.

    This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.

    This is just my take on the episode anyway from looking at it a little closer so please no flaming about my opinion because I could very well be wrong about the things I have said.

  4. #64
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    No, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis, in terms of all the characters. There is room for debate as to whether Daniel should have challenged Jack in public like that, but he was correct no matter what one might think about his diplomacy. Daniel gets forced into the role of the diplomat frequently, but he is entirely too blunt to be truly good at it.

    The signs were there from the beginning that something was off, but Jack was too concerned about getting their technology to want to see them.

    Teal'c knew something was up, but as a warrior, felt compelled to both follow the wishes of his leader, and to gain the weapons that he knows they need. You could tell he was torn, though. He knew something was being hidden, and he respects Daniel's opinion on such matters. I think he really didn't like to see Jack and Daniel at odds with each other like that.

    Poor Sam. Lot of conflict there. She was quite impatient with Daniel, and appeared to agree with Jack, but you could tell she had some doubts. She did admit to General Hammond that Daniel had a valid point.

    Speaking of Hammond, how nasty was that crack he made about "You of all people should know that Apophis is out there and a threat" (paraphrase)? As though Daniel has forgotten that Apophis has his wife! Good Lord, George! Twist that knife a little, why don't you? Yeah, Daniel was being a little pissy, but c'mon!

    Luckily they discover the truth, but not before things have gotten pretty unsavory. Jack and Teal'c have killed enemy fighters before they turn the tables, destroying the planet poisoning Nazis.

    Did Jack know that Alar would follow him through the gate? I think he had a good idea that he might. Did Sam know he knew? You betcha. Should he have been more specific with Alar before he went through? Maybe, but did it matter? He was going to die either way, and he knew they had an iris. They'd already lost people that way. I figure Jack knew he might follow and Alar knew he might die. So, did Jack cause his death, or was it suicide? Who's to say. All we can say for sure is that SG-1 did end up deciding the course of a World War, but I can't say I disagree with their actions--except that they didn't listen to Daniel earlier.

    This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.
    I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one
    Last edited by amconway; March 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 PM.

  5. #65
    Captain Khentkawes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Ah wonderful discussion about one of my favorite episodes.

    By the way, Butlersgate, those were some great thoughts to start off the discussion. Nice analysis!

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    No, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis, in terms of all the characters. There is room for debate as to whether Daniel should have challenged Jack in public like that, but he was correct no matter what one might think about his diplomacy. Daniel gets forced into the role of the diplomat frequently, but he is entirely too blunt to be truly good at it.
    Lol. I think Daniel can be quite good a diplomacy. He is generally very polite and he knows how to deal with people. But I agree that he also is not willing to bend on what he believes, and he is the kind of person who never says less than what he means. So in that regard, yes, he is very blunt, and that can cause problems. I still think that, in general, he is well suited to diplomacy, partially because he is so brutally honest and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Although I guess that's a fairly unique and Daniel-esque style of diplomacy.

    Speaking of Hammond, how nasty was that crack he made about "You of all people should know that Apophis is out there and a threat" (paraphrase)? As though Daniel has forgotten that Apophis has his wife! Good Lord, George! Twist that knife a little, why don't you? Yeah, Daniel was being a little pissy, but c'mon!
    I actually find myself angrier with Hammond's behavior than with Jack's (maybe partially because I expect it from Jack). Hammond's comment was simply uncalled for. I don't care how much pressure he had from "higher up" in the chain of command, or how much his superiors wanted those weapons... Hammond's comment was too personal and his tone too condescending. I think this is the only scene in the entire series where I feel like Hammond acted poorly towards one of the people under his command.

    Did Jack know that Alar would follow him through the gate? I think he had a good idea that he might. Did Sam know he knew? You betcha. Should he have been more specific with Alar before he went through? Maybe, but did it matter? He was going to die either way, and he knew they had an iris. They'd already lost people that way. I figure Jack knew he might follow and Alar knew he might die. So, did Jack cause his death, or was it suicide? Who's to say. All we can say for sure is that SG-1 did end up deciding the course of a World War, but I can't say I disagree with their actions--except that they didn't listen to Daniel earlier.
    I'm normally pretty passionate about moral/ethical issues, but this is one point that I don't really care about. Did Jack do anything wrong? I honestly don't think so. If Alar had followed them back to Earth, what would they have done? I suppose they could have benefited from his knowledge about the Eurondans technology, but it was so advanced that I don't think the SGC could really understand it or use it effectively. And even if they did, is it really an ethical decision to harbor a genocidal maniac just so you can profit from his knowledge? Technically, Alar was a war criminal. I don't know if Earth would have had the right to prosecute him as such, but in a war crimes trial, I imagine that Alar would be sentenced to death. Did Jack's action cause Alar's death? I tend to think that Alar committed suicide because he couldn't handle the thought of losing his perfect little race of people. But honestly, I don't think it matters.

    I have never quite known how to interpret the look Sam gives Jack. I don't know what was meant by that, and it doesn't make sense to me. That's probably the most irritating point in this episode for me, because I can never figure out what I'm supposed to take away from that last scene.

    I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one
    Definitely! This is one of my favorite episodes because of the moral dilemma, the conflict and development of the characters, and the real depth that it has. But it also makes me angry every time I watch it (Meridian does the same thing for me). I consider it the mark of a good episode that I feel a strong emotional reaction every time I watch it, and that it makes me think. So in that respect, I think this is and excellent episode in terms of writing and addressing complex issues.

    At the same time, it makes me sad, because I agree that it marks the beginning of a slow decline in the "unified team." I know that there are many fans who don't see it this way, but I still see a decline in the "team dynamic" starting in this episode and permeating all of season 4 (and possibly small bits of season 5). So this is always a very intense episode for me. Thought-provoking, but also frustrating, making for a bitter-sweet viewing experience.
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    Hallowed are the Optimi.

  6. #66
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    I always figured that look meant "OMG! You just let that guy squish like a bug! On purpose! Ewww."

  7. #67
    Captain Khentkawes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Lol. I'll go with that, I guess.

    But to me it always looked more like "OMG my eyelids are glued open and my eyeball are about to pop out of my head." Or possibly "OMG I just choked on a fish bone!"

    But maybe it was just "OMG we just almost helped a genocidal maniac, and then he followed us through the wormhole and went splat like a bug! This should go down on the list of worst-missions-ever!"

    I guess my problem is just that they had no problem helping the Eurondans fight a war (knowing that war would result in a large number of deaths) but suddenly there's this big ambiguous moral moment about the death of one guy (one very, very bad guy)? The reaction seemed overdone to me, considering everything that went on before.
    Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

    Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
    Hallowed are the Optimi.

  8. #68
    First Lieutenant Butlersgate's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one
    i watched them two recently and for the first time i noticed subtle changes with how the team works but you just start to think, ahh nothings different and then in this episode you see which direction the team goes in and it was quite a shocker for me.

  9. #69
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    I guess my problem is just that they had no problem helping the Eurondans fight a war (knowing that war would result in a large number of deaths) but suddenly there's this big ambiguous moral moment about the death of one guy (one very, very bad guy)? The reaction seemed overdone to me, considering everything that went on before.
    Yes, but there is an element of willfull cruelty that's a bit...disturbling. It wasn't different in result, but still, it was different. I think Sam't reaction is "I can't believe you just did that" not because of his death, but because it was a whole lot like a cat playing with a mouse.

    i watched them two recently and for the first time i noticed subtle changes with how the team works but you just start to think, ahh nothings different and then in this episode you see which direction the team goes in and it was quite a shocker for me.
    It was definately an intentional element that they added. I suspect they thought they needed more conflict, more like the movie. I don't think that was the case, but it did give us some excellent character episodes and provide some logic to Daniel's feeling that he might be able to do more if he ascended.

  10. #70
    First Lieutenant Butlersgate's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    but it did give us some excellent character episodes and provide some logic to Daniel's feeling that he might be able to do more if he ascended.
    yeah i just watched meridian and thought about this episode.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by Khentkawes View Post
    Lol. I think Daniel can be quite good a diplomacy. He is generally very polite and he knows how to deal with people. But I agree that he also is not willing to bend on what he believes, and he is the kind of person who never says less than what he means. So in that regard, yes, he is very blunt, and that can cause problems. I still think that, in general, he is well suited to diplomacy, partially because he is so brutally honest and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Although I guess that's a fairly unique and Daniel-esque style of diplomacy.
    Daniel can be quite diplomatic when he needs to, but he failed in that regard to me in this episode. Yes, he was right about the Eurondans, but he openly questioned his team leader in front of them and blatantly showed that there was discord amongst the team about what to do. Definitely not a good strategy for negotiations, which Alar later exploited, and not really being a team player to me, despite him being right. I much preferred him bring up his objections to Hammond in private and wish he could have done the same with Jack.

    I have never quite known how to interpret the look Sam gives Jack. I don't know what was meant by that, and it doesn't make sense to me. That's probably the most irritating point in this episode for me, because I can never figure out what I'm supposed to take away from that last scene.
    I interpreted her look at shock at Jack killing Alar in such a deliberate, almost calculated way. I kinda see it as Sam coming face-to-face with Black Ops Jack and being a bit disturbed about what she sees.

    Definitely! This is one of my favorite episodes because of the moral dilemma, the conflict and development of the characters, and the real depth that it has. But it also makes me angry every time I watch it (Meridian does the same thing for me). I consider it the mark of a good episode that I feel a strong emotional reaction every time I watch it, and that it makes me think. So in that respect, I think this is and excellent episode in terms of writing and addressing complex issues.
    I agree, I remember being struck by the depth of storytelling the first time I saw this episode, and I especially enjoyed Jack's arc.

  12. #72
    Second Lieutenant HPMom's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by Butlersgate View Post
    This episode shows the team in depth on a moral level. We see Daniel at this best with his questioning of Euronda’s intentions and position in the war almost right away. When he keeps on getting interrupted by Jack you see a tension there that has only been brushed upon in past episodes. Jack seems to show how he really feels about the situation but you get the feeling that he just wants the technology without asking too many questions. Later finding out that he was suspicious and when Alar tells him that it would be best if Teal’c should not return because he is “different”.

    When I first heard that I thought that this episode was really heavy for a stargate episode on a moral level. This interests me as it forces the characters to react in such a way that they will have to eventually show their true feelings towards this situation. Throughout the episode the focus is mainly on Daniel and Jack but you can sense Teal’cs disapproval and suspicion without him saying more then a couple of words. I think that this shows Teal’c at his best in terms of saying a thousand words with just facial movement. Sam appears to be put in the middle of this morally unstable situation and she looks like she agrees with Daniel but feels obligated to support Jack because Earth needs the technology and I think this shows us how torn she can be between her team mates.

    This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.

    This is just my take on the episode anyway from looking at it a little closer so please no flaming about my opinion because I could very well be wrong about the things I have said.
    This is a great analysis. This is one of my favorite episodes and it shows the most growth on Jack's part. I think by the end he gained a real appreciation for Daniel's contribution to the team.
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  13. #73
    First Lieutenant The Stig's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    This episodes shows you why you don't get involved in fights that aren't your own.
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    And that he solved the Da Vinci Code in 3 minutes.
    All we know is he's called

  14. #74
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Wow! Great character discussion, folks. The moral ambiguity early in this episode was well played out. Daniel and Jack both had a point (even if I hate to admit Jack's point, even to myself). Forgive the bad pun, but sometimes things aren't so black and white. At the end of 42 minutes, our team always does the RIGHT thing, even if they dabbled with something else. This is television, that's expected. But what if Daniel hadn't been so persistent? What if Jack pushed the issue and what if Sam got that data storage thingy before it broke?

    On a lighter note, I'm truly enjoying the witty sarcasm and funny dialogue on this re-watch. A friend recently reminded me of a couple great lines from this episode, I thought I'd share:


    Daniel: No…their whole world is in flames and we are offering them gasoline. How is that help?
    Teal'c: We are in fact offering water.
    Daniel: I was speaking metaphorically.
    Jack: Well stop it! You're not being fair to Teal'c



    Jack: So what's your impression of Alar?
    Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
    Jack: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure, he is concealing it.

  15. #75
    First Lieutenant Dinoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
    Daniel can be quite diplomatic when he needs to, but he failed in that regard to me in this episode. Yes, he was right about the Eurondans, but he openly questioned his team leader in front of them and blatantly showed that there was discord amongst the team about what to do. Definitely not a good strategy for negotiations, which Alar later exploited, and not really being a team player to me, despite him being right. I much preferred him bring up his objections to Hammond in private and wish he could have done the same with Jack.
    Daniel is not diplomatic to his fellow team members. This was not his first time having direct confrontation with Jack in front of outsiders. Apparently Jack knows about this weakness of Daniel very well but that doesn't stop him from getting angry with Daniel, and the fact that Daniel was right in most cases annoyed Jack sometimes.

  16. #76
    Captain EvenstarSRV's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinoman View Post
    Daniel is not diplomatic to his fellow team members. This was not his first time having direct confrontation with Jack in front of outsiders. Apparently Jack knows about this weakness of Daniel very well but that doesn't stop him from getting angry with Daniel, and the fact that Daniel was right in most cases annoyed Jack sometimes.
    In the middle of official negotiations? I honestly can't recall an episode prior to this when he did that.

    I'm not saying that Daniel was wrong to question to Eurondans' motives or to question Jack's single-minded determination to get their technology, he was right on both counts. But by questioning his CO in the middle of official negotiations, Daniel exposed the internal team disagreement, which the Eurondans later capitalized on to further pressure Jack and the SGC to give them the heavy water.

    Daniel wasn't being diplomatic period, not to his team and certainly not to the Eurondans. IMHO, he had his opinion and he was going to state it regardless of the time, place, or consequences. That makes him forthright, honest, and more than a little stubborn, but not a team player in this case, which was my main objection to his behavior in this episode.



  17. #77
    Colonel madaboutdanny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
    In the middle of official negotiations? I honestly can't recall an episode prior to this when he did that.

    I'm not saying that Daniel was wrong to question to Eurondans' motives or to question Jack's single-minded determination to get their technology, he was right on both counts. But by questioning his CO in the middle of official negotiations, Daniel exposed the internal team disagreement, which the Eurondans later capitalized on to further pressure Jack and the SGC to give them the heavy water.

    Daniel wasn't being diplomatic period, not to his team and certainly not to the Eurondans. IMHO, he had his opinion and he was going to state it regardless of the time, place, or consequences. That makes him forthright, honest, and more than a little stubborn, but not a team player in this case, which was my main objection to his behavior in this episode.
    Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...

  18. #78
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by madaboutdanny View Post
    Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...
    When did Hammond and Jack "trick" Daniel? In the beginning it was a humanitarian mission and SG-1's goal was to provide medical assistance/food and then offer to trade for technologies.

    Jack and Hammond acted rashly when the weapons technology was offered, yes, but they in no way misrepresented what they were doing. EDIT: Not that I can recall.
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  19. #79
    Captain EvenstarSRV's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by madaboutdanny View Post
    Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...
    Well, I agree with Ashizuri, it was a humanitarian mission at first. But, since the SGC's standing orders are the acquisition of technology to help them fight the Goa'uld, then I'm sure the next step they take when making contact with advance civilizations is to offer to trade for that technology. They did much the same with the Tollan in Enigma.

    Nobody tricked Daniel, unless he's somehow been unaware of the SGC's standing orders after 3+ years of being in the program, which I highly doubt for a man of his intelligence.



  20. #80
    Colonel madaboutdanny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Other Side (402)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashizuri View Post
    When did Hammond and Jack "trick" Daniel? In the beginning it was a humanitarian mission and SG-1's goal was to provide medical assistance/food and then offer to trade for technologies.

    Jack and Hammond acted rashly when the weapons technology was offered, yes, but they in no way misrepresented what they were doing. EDIT: Not that I can recall.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
    Well, I agree with Ashizuri, it was a humanitarian mission at first. But, since the SGC's standing orders are the acquisition of technology to help them fight the Goa'uld, then I'm sure the next step they take when making contact with advance civilizations is to offer to trade for that technology. They did much the same with the Tollan in Enigma.

    Nobody tricked Daniel, unless he's somehow been unaware of the SGC's standing orders after 3+ years of being in the program, which I highly doubt for a man of his intelligence.

    Read the transcript, they waited for Daniel to leave before saying what was the first and foremost, I've bolded the lines, pourpose of the mission; better, watch the scene, it's clear!

    [SG-1 and Hammond are in the briefing room. Daniel walks up to the table and sits down. O'Neill is distractedly drumming on the table.]

    DANIEL
    I know it seems hopeless and I know there are a lot of unanswered questions but this is the first time that the descendants of Earth have actually called home. I mean either we try to do something or we let them die.
    [Daniel looks at Hammond.]

    O'NEILL
    It's your call, sir.
    HAMMOND
    Colonel…
    DANIEL
    Now I already know what you're going to say but…
    HAMMOND
    …You have a go
    DANIEL
    …From a strictly humanitarian point of view…. What?
    [Daniel looks surprised at Hammond.]

    HAMMOND
    We cannot and would not devote the resources to turn the tide of world war. However as Dr. Jackson points out there are humanitarian concerns. We'll start with all of the food and medical supplies you can take with you. Major, perhaps…
    CARTER
    We're on it, sir.
    [She gets up and leaves. Daniel and O'Neill also get up. Daniel looks confused and looks about to say something but leaves also.]

    HAMMOND
    Colonel, humanitarian concerns aside, we may have finally met an advanced civilization willing to exchange technology to help us defend against the Goa'uld.
    O'NEILL
    My thoughts, sir.
    HAMMOND
    I've already talked to the President and Joint Chiefs. If the Eurondan government is open to trade you're authorized to negotiate.
    [O'Neill smiles and walks out.]

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