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**Seastallion** · 27 July 2005, 06:54 AM

The second chapter introduces our Sage... 'the old man'. Our package delivery man has arrived at his destination, and ringed the door bell. Unfortunately, no one answered. So, our delivery man (hoping to resolve the delivery today, and avoiding a repeat trip) twisted the door knob, and found it unlocked. So he enters the house, cautiously, calling out in his most friendly voice, "Hello". He slowly walks down the hall, noticing that the place seems to belong to a very wealthy person. It has paintings, antiques, and other things of seeming great value. He suddenly finds himself in a large sitting room with a large fire-place. Suddenly, an old mans voice says, "I've been expecting you". Startled, and somewhat embarrased, the man sees a very old man sitting in a rocking chair. He politely tries to explain that he was simply trying to deliver a package.

However, the old man seems to ignore his comments, and says, "If I toss a coin a thousand times, how often will it come up heads"? "About fifty percent of the time", replies the man. "Why?" returns the old man. "I guess that is because the coin weighs about the same weight on both sides, so there is a fifty-fifty chance that the coin will land on one side or the other", says the man. "You haven't answered why", replies the old man, "You simply listed some facts". "What is the answer?" says the man. "The answer", he said "is that the question has no why".

"You could say that about anything" retorts the man. "No" he replied, "Every other question has an answer to why. Only probability is inexplicable". The delivery man, thinking there must be some punch-line to a joke said, "That's it"? "It's more than it seems" says the old man. The man was impatient to deliver his package, and said, "I still need a signature". The old man replied, "You can sign it". The delivery man reads the name before forging the signature. Avatar. A-v-a-t-a-r. "It's for you", said the old man. "What's for me?", asked the man. "The package", replied the old man. "I just deliever the packages", said the man, "It's for you". "No, it's yours", said the old man.

"Um, okay" said the confused man. "What is in the package?", he said. "It's the answer to your question", replied the old man. "I wasn't expecting any anwers", said the delivery man. "I understand", replied the old man. The delivery man didn't know how to respond, so he didn't. He continued, "Let me ask you a simple question: Did you deliver the package, or did the package deliver you?" "I delivered the package", the man answered. "And if the package had no address, would you have delivered it here?" The man said no. "Then would you agree that delivering the package required the participation of the package. The package told you where to go", said the old man. "I suppose that is true, in a way. But it is the least important part of the delivery. I did the driving and lifting and moving. That's the important part", replied the man. "How can one part be more important, if each part is completely necessary?", the old man asked. "Look", the man said, "I am holding the package and walking with it. That is delivering. I'm delivering the package. That's what I do. I'm the package delivery guy." "That's one way to look at it", replied the old man "Another way is that both you and the package got here at the same time. And that both of you were necessary. I say the package delivered you".

The man admitted to himself there was a twisted logic to it, but he wasn't willing to give in. "The difference is intention. If I leave this package here and go on my way, I think that settles the question of who delivered who." "Perhaps it would", replied the old man "Would you put another log in the fire?" The delivery man did so. "That chair is yours", said the old man, gesturing to a wooden rocker the delivery man hadn't noticed before. The man had a lunch break coming up, and the warm fire place seemed far more inviting than the cold outside. So he decided to stay.

The 'Thought Experiment' has just begun...

**Qasim** · 27 July 2005, 06:56 AM

Well that doesnt tell us much hopefully chapter 2 is better

**Qasim** · 27 July 2005, 06:58 AM

You posted before me lol

I cant say the book is one I would read from what chapter 2 tells me

**Seastallion** · 27 July 2005, 07:39 AM

This next chapter deals with a topic, that I've already seen discussed in this forum... 'Your Free Will'. Hmmm...

"Do you believe in God?" asked the old man. The man assumed that the old man was simply seeking reassurance that his departure from this life would lead to something better. He decided to give a kind answer. "There has to be a God", he said "Otherwise, none of us would be here". It wasn't much of a reason, but the man figured the old man didn't need more. "Do you believe that God is omnipotent and that people have free will?" asked the old man. "That is standered stuff for God, so yeah" replied the man. "If God is omnipotent, wouldn't he know the future?" "Sure". "If God already knows what the future holds, then all our choices are already made aren't they? Free will must be an illusion" said the old man. The man decided that the old man was clever, but he wasn't going to fall into his trap. "God lets us determine the future ourselves, using our free will", he explained. "Then you believe that God doesn't know the future?" asked the old man. "I guess not", the man admitted "But he must prefer not knowing". "So you agree that it would be impossible for God to know the future and grant humans free will?" asked the old man. "I hadn't thought of it before, but I guess that is right. He must want us to find our own way, so he intentionally tries not to see the future", said the man.

*whew*

The old man asked for who's benefit that God withheld his power to determine the future. The man replied that God must do it for his own benefit and humanities, and that he wouldn't have to settle for less. The old man then asked if God couldn't just be giving men the illusion of free will. We'd be just as happy thinking we had actual free will, and God would retain his ability ot see the future. "Isn't that a better solution for God than the one you suggested?" asked the old man. "Why would God want to mislead us?" asked the man. The old man explained that if God exist, his motives are unfathomable. No one knows why he grants free will, or why he cares about human souls, or why pain and suffering are necessary parts of life. The man said, "The one thing I know about God's motives is that he must love us, right?" "Love?" the old man asked, "Do you mean love as you understand it as a human?" "Well not exactly, but basically the same thing. I mean Love is love", replied the man. The old man explained that a neuro-surgeon would explain love as something controlled by the brain, and that if it were damaged people would be incapable of love, incapable of caring about others.

"So?" replied the man. "So, isn't it arrogant to think that the love generated by our little brains is the same thing that an omnipotent being experiances? If you were omnipotent, why would you limit yourself to something that could be reproduced by a little clump of nuerons?" asked the old man. The man felt the need to defend himself, and replied, "We must feel something similiar to God's type of love, but not the same way he feels it." The old man asked what it meant to feel something the same way God felt. Was it saying that a pebble is similiar to the sun, because both are round? The man said that perhaps God made mans brains to feel love the way he did, and that God could do it, if he wanted.

"So you believe God wants things. And he loves things, similiar to the way humans do. Do you also believe that God experiances anger and forgiveness?" The man said it was part of the package. "So God has a personality, according to you, and it is similiar to what man experiances?" asked the old man. "I guess so" "What sort of arrogance assumes that God is like people?", asked the old man. The man said he could accept the idea that God wasn't exactly like people. Perhaps that people assumed that God has a personality because it was easier to talk about it that way. "But the important point is that something had to create reality. It's too well-designed to be an accident", said the man. "Are you saying that you believe in God because there is no other explanations?", asked the old man. "That's a big part of it", replied the man. The old man asked if a magician made a tiger dissapear, and you didn't know how the trick was done without real magic, would that make it real magic? "That's different", replied the man "The magician knows how it's done and other magicians know how it's done. Even the magician's assistant knows how it's done. As long as someone knows how it's done, I can feel confident that it isn't real magic. I don't personally need to know how its done," he said. The old man asked the delivery man that if there were a very wise man that knew how world was designed without God's hand, could that person convince him God wasn't involved? The man replied that in theory, yes... But a person with that much knowledge didn't exist. "To be fair", replied the old man "you can only be sure that you don't know whether that person exists or not".

It only gets more interesting from there...

**Seastallion** · 27 July 2005, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by qasimjavid

You posted before me lol

I cant say the book is one I would read from what chapter 2 tells me

The engine is just getting warmed up... It gets more interesting as it goes.

**Qasim** · 27 July 2005, 07:54 AM

Does the whole story revolve around this old man?

**Seastallion** · 27 July 2005, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by qasimjavid

Does the whole story revolve around this old man?

The whole thing is a discussion between the old man and the guy. They discuss a wide variety of topics, that might be considered metaphysical in nature.

**Seastallion** · 27 July 2005, 08:37 AM

I'll continue to write more later, but for now, I need to get myself some grub.

I was just talking to my Mom, so I had to take a break for a while. I'll probably continue to the next chapter tomorrow.

The next chapter is, "Gods Free Will"...

**Ohper** · 27 July 2005, 09:26 AM

Sounds like my kinda thing. I'll definitely check it out.

**Anubis69** · 27 July 2005, 03:45 PM

That sounds really cool! i think i'll do the same Ohper and check it out. it might broaden my collection of books beyond physics books, HG Wells and LotR!!!

**Seastallion** · 28 July 2005, 03:37 AM

This chapter is the shortest chapter in the whole book. It is only 2 paragraphs long...

This chapter is called "God's Free Will"

"Does God have free will?" the old man asked. "Obviously he does", the man said. It was the most confident he had felt so far in the entire conversation. "I'll admit there is some ambiguity about whether human beings have free will, but God is omnipotent. Being omnipotent means you can do anything you want. If God didn't have free will, he wouldn't be very omnipotent."

"Indeed", the old man replied, "And being omnipotent, God must be able to peer into his own future, to view it in all its perfect detail." "Yeah, I know." said the man, "Your going to say that if he sees his own future, then his choices are predetermined. Or, if he can't see the future, then he's not omnipotent."
"Omnipotence is trickier than it seems," the old man said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would seem that the point of this chapter is this... Can there be free will in a future predetermined? Later in the book it actually gets into this, but my answer is basically yes. The prediction of the future is ultimately based on probabilities. The probability for an event can be close enough to 100%, that a reasonably certain knowledge of the future can be had. If God knows all possible (i.e.- probable) futures, then the allowance of free will is still maintained, because you have a certain say in how the probability will play out. However, God knows us pretty well, and could make a fairly certain prediction based on that knowledge.

It's still tricky.

**Seastallion** · 28 July 2005, 06:45 AM

This chapter is called "Science". Simple title, huh?!?

By the end of the last conversation, the delivery guy is thinking that the old man is an atheist that believes science has all the answers, and that all religious people are just delusional. So, the old man decides they should talk about science, which the delivery guy was pleased to do, since he liked science.

"Do you know a lot about science?" asked the man. "Almost nothing", replied the old man. "Consider magnets", said the old man "If you hold two magnets near each other, they are attracted. Yet there is nothing material connecting them." "Yes there is," the man corrected. "There's a magnetic field. You can see it when you do that experiment with the metal shavings on a piece of psper. You hold a magnet under the paper and the shavings all organize along magnetic lines. That's the magnetic field." "So you have a word for it", said the old man "It's a 'field' you say. But you can't get a handful of this thing for which you have a name. You can't fill a container with a magnetic field and take it with you. You can't cut it in pieces. You can't block its power". "You can't block it?" said the man "I didn't know that". "You can alter a magnetic field by adding other magnetic material, but there is no non-magnetic material you can put between two magnets to block them. This 'field' of yours is strange stuff. We can see its effect, and we can invent a name for it, but it doesn't exist in any physical form How can something that doesn't exist in physical form have influence over the things that do?"

"Maybe it has physical form but it's small and we can't see it. That's possible. Maybe there are tiny magnetrons or something", said the man making up a word. "Consider gravity", the old man continued, oblivious to the younger man's creative answer. "Gravity is also an unseen force that cannot be blocked by any object. It reaches across the entire universe and connects all things, yet it has no physical form". "I think Einstein said it was warping of space-time by massive objects," the young man said. "Indeed, Einstein did say that", replied the old man "And what does that mean?" "It means that space is bent, so when objects seem to be attracted to each other, it's just that they're traveling in the shortest direction through bent space", said the man. "Can you imagine bent space?" asked the old man.

"No, but just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean it's not true. You can't argue with Einstein", said the man. The old man looked away, took a breath, and then continued. "Scientist often invent words to fill the holes in their understanding. These words are meant as conveniences until real understanding can be found. Sometimes understanding comes and the temporary words can be replaced with words that have more meaning. More often, however, the patch words will take on a life of their own and no one will remember that they were only intended to be placeholders. For example, some physicist describe gravity in terms of ten dimensions all curled up. But those aren't real words--just placeholders, used to refer to parts of abstract equations. Even if the equations someday prove useful, it would say nothing about the existence of other dimensions. Words such as dimension and field and infinity are nothing more than conveniences for mathematicians and scientist. They are not descriptions of reality, yet we accept them as such because everyone is sure someone else knows what the words mean." The man listened, mildly stunned.

"Have you heard of string theory?" asked the old man. "Sort of." "String theory", continued the old man "says that all physical reality--from gravity to magnetism to light-- can be explained in one grand theory that involves tiny, string-shaped, vibrating objects. String theory has produced no useful results. It has never been proven by experiment, yet thousands of physicist are dedicating their careers to it on the faith that it smells right." "Maybe it is right", replied the young man. "Every generation of humans believed it had all the answers it needed," continued the old man "except for a few mysteries they assumed would be solved at any moment. And they all belived their ancestors were simplistic and deluded. What are the odds that you are the first generation of humans who will understand reality?"

"I don't think the odds are bad", replied the young man "Everything has to happen for a first time. You were around to see computers invented and to see space travel. Maybe we'll be the first for this string theory". "Computers and rocket ships are examples of inventions, not of understanding", said the old man. "All that is needed to build machines is the knowledge that when one thing happens, another thing happens as a result. It's an accumulation of simple patterns. A dog can learn patterns. There is no 'why' in those examples. We don't understand why electricity travels. We don't know why light travels at a constant speed forever. All we can do is observe and record patterns".

Hmmm...

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