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  1. #1
    Major Jeff O'Connor's Avatar
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    GateWorld Valley of Darkness (202)

    What an episode. Expect a big 'review' from me akin to last week's 'Scattered' tomorrow, but I'm hitting the sack for now. I figured I'd do the honors and make a topic, though, to get some conversation started. Until I come back, I've just got one thing to say.

    Holy. Flying. Cylons.
    If you've seen a Jeff O'Connor or a JeffZero or a Jeff Zero or a JeffZeroConnor elsewhere on the net, there's a considerable chance it's me.

  2. #2
    Second Lieutenant Vala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    APOLLO GOT SUBSTENCE THIS WEEK wow that's such a new one lol... anyway that was cool... also Loved the Starbuck/Helo stuff on the Caprica (why do i half want those two to hook up?)

  3. #3
    Staff Sergeant Lt. Elliot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    I really liked Valley of Darkness aside from the fact this seasons is dark. A lot of death and suspense. It's different, but a good different.
    Helo/Starbuck on Caprica. Fun actually. I liked seeing more into Kara's character, her life before the attacks, etc. Pleasant part of the episode.
    The Centurions were cool! Keep in mind I have not seen much of them due to not seeing the Mini-Series, but they are cool! And headshots, AWESOME!
    Roslin's presence is still felt and I love how calm she is in danger. And the bullets at the end. WOW!
    Billy/Dee. Scary when the wound, stand-offish at the beginning, love at the end. Nice end to a dark episode.
    Tigh and Apollo. They're thing with the uniforms. Tigh isn't fit to wear it. Take it off now! *******.
    Baltar's dream scared me a little. More of a nightmare, right? Number Six to calm him down.
    The morpha (euthenasia) was scary. Very dark and very heavy mood. The crying and all, it was sad.
    So, 9/10. I feel like there could have been more, but there wasn't. However, Fragged looks to be awesome! With Zarek and Tigh, who knows what will happen!

  4. #4
    Staff Sergeant Redwall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vala
    APOLLO GOT SUBSTENCE THIS WEEK
    What exactly do you mean by this?

    Did anyone else notice that one of the Centurions seemed to bleed when shot? It could have been blood from a previous victim, I suppose... but if the Centurions are cyborgs like the Raiders and Base Stars it would explain a lot.

    Baltar's (Six-enduced, likely) dream was indeed freaky, and then the skulls...

    A little too much running through corridors in this episode; almost everything on Galactica screamed "filler!" (which, from the podcasts, it apparently was; they couldn't fit the extra Caprica/Kobol stuff into "Scattered" and so they made another episode for it).

    I really liked seeing Starbuck's apartment. She is quite the tortured soul... and her having a Humvee is very fitting.
    aka Nur-ab-sal

    "It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of survival." -- William Adama

  5. #5
    Brigadier General LoneStar1836's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Wow. Some of that was hard to watch (in that it was dark, not that I hated it), but a great episode nonetheless.

    Interesting insights into Karas past life and about who she is - and all from just seeing her apartment, not to mention what she said. Someone needs to dig up a screencap of what she had painted on her wall - the writing. I wonder if Zaks death was somewhat of the inspiration of her paintings cause they didnt look like they were painted by a happy person, if she was ever a truly happy person sometime in her life. This storyline was my favorite of the night. I like the interaction between her and Helo.

    I knew Socinous was going to die, but I didnt think his death would be the result of a mercy killing. Now that whole scene was difficult to watch. Good stuff though.

    Baltar and that baby. Hes really getting into that whole idea that he might be an actual father whether literally or figuratively. Lets keep him away from Adama till the man can get back on his feet because after that dream, I think Baltar would actually try to kill him. He seemed very disturbed by that dream, and nothing really seems to bother Baltar unless it involves danger too himself. Then he worries. Hmm.wonder if that dream was manipulated by Six , a product of Baltars own subconscious knowing how Adama feels about Cylons if he ever found out, or some kind of prophetic dream like Roslin had with Leoben.

    Good action on the Galactica with the Cylons, Lee, and the whole gang. Intense. Then him telling off Tigh like that. Hey, I guess why hold back now. You've already put a gun to the man's head so he can't dislike you anymore than he already does. Lee sort of confirmed that he never really thought he was cut out to be in the service in the first place. He did it more out of trying to live up to his father's expections than because he actually wanted to, imo.

    Okay my new suspects for Cylons. Dee and Jammer. How convenient that they survived or did they just luck out. I know the writers are probably doing some of these things on purpose to make us start questioning characters. Then to probably have a character who never seemed like a Cylon, turn out to be one.

    Great use of music throughout in this one as well.

    Another fantastic episode in the books. Lots of good character development, which is what I love about this show. I love the overall storyline and all the action etc., but the characters and how in depth that they are written is what make the show for me.
    IMO always implied.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Here are excerpts from the podcast.

    --

    That number of the survivors will change week to week, by the way. That's something you might want to look at. We are tracking the number of the survivors, actually.

    --

    We wanted to add a little bit more texture, a little bit more pathos, a little bit more of humanity into the show. And we loved this storyline so much we knew it could sustain a little bit more discussion of Helo and what he's going through, and Kara's reaction to it, and a little bit more about their friendship. And it's moody and it's interesting. It gives you just a little more bit insight into the struggle that he's going through, and that she's just starting to deal with herself... This season is the first time that Katee and Talmoh have worked together since the minsieries. It's the first time Talmoh has worked with anybody except Grace for a very long time. It's just kind of fun to see that relationship. It's interesting to know now that Kara and Helo go back aways, that they had a relationship, that they were friends, that there's a pre-existing relationship between these two pilots.

    --

    This sequence where Tigh tells them what the Cylons are after, when he says they are actually going here to aft damamge control and they are going to auxilliary fire control he says "I know where they're going." In the aired version of the show, you assume that Tigh's encountered these guys before. He fought in the first Cylon wars. This was a memory. It was more literal in the first script than in the cut... We did shoot a whole scene with Tigh and Adama that was set in the same period as the flashbacks that you saw in "Scattered," and it was a drinking scene between the two men... Tigh and Adama, on the night before Adama goes back to the fleet, are getting really drunk. And they're sitting there and trading stories.

    And it turns out that Tigh was on a ship called the Brinnock, and the Brinnock was boarded by Cylons. They tried to decompress the ship and kill them all, and turn the guns of the Brinnock against the other ships in their escort fleet. It was his first taste of real ugly, hand to hand combat and saw dead people for the first time. And then it turned out that Adama had gone through something similar on the Galactica... In his backstory, I always felt that Galactica was the first ship that Adama was assigned to during the first Cylon war as a pilot. And that he went through a similar experience and Galactica lost a lot of men. A lot of good men died when the Cylons got on board. But it is essentially that flashback was what informed the audience how Tigh knows what theire plan is, and that the Cylon plan was, they didn't come right at CIC, they didn't go toward the magazines, they didn't even go towards the engines. They essentially went to auxiliary fire control and aft damage control. They went to the secondary places on the ship, went into aft damage control, destroyed the safeties, got into the computer systems and mechanical systems, and were able to take over the ship from that point, and use auxiliary fire control to attack the ships around them.

    --

    This sequence I think is really great. I think there's some people that would be quite disturbed by this sequence. I think it's really interesting and really intriguing. It pushes the mythos forward in an interesting way. But this was a controversial sequence, this whole beat of Adama and the baby, and Adama drowning the baby. I think there was a lot of hesitation and nervousness, and "Oh my God, can we show this?" and there was a lot of arguing. And David and I just kept fighting for it and kept saying "this is important." This is about a threat to the child that Baltar is investing in. Your basically setting up a marker that Adama in some way, shape or form, is the threat that Baltar must face. Adama is going to be a major obstacle, between Baltar and fulfilling his destiny, vis a vis the child. So, this is a simple, visual, clear and brutal way of dramatizing that event. And I just felt it was great, and I felt that it was part of the show. That the show has a certain no holds barred, really brutal quality to it... I don't really have a hankering for infanticide, certainly, but we did kill a baby in the miniseries, and here Adama is killing a baby.

    --

    This idea, I thought was really intriguing, that part of the myth of the Colonies' backstory is this notion that Kobol was a paradise, in the same way that Eden in the Judeo-Christian tradition was paradise, and that man left paradise and has been on a fall ever since. I think it was intriguging to go back to Kobol to find paradise, and to find out, far from Eden, some really nasty horrific things happened there. There was human sacrifice, there was barbarism, there was brutality. Man fled paradise, he was driven out by the wrath of God, for the things that he did, which in some ways, is a basic retelling of Genesis... These guys did some really nasty untoward things, and then they had to leave.

    --

    This is my favorite scene of the season and it's one of my favorite scenes of the entire series. I love this whole bit of texture that we go to Kara Thrace's apartment. I love the way the two actors react to it. Katee and Talmoh actually went in there on their own and did a lot of this painting on the walls and canvases. And Katee was very involved in what Starbuck's apartment would be like. I like the fact that she painteed, in that she had this weird, bohemian existence that is antithetical in a lot of ways to what it is to be a fighter pilot in the military and that there is this other aspect of her. We've heard some not so great things about her mother. We've implied them in season one episodes. But then her father is a musician and plays piano, and that she still has his cassette tapes or discs and listens to them. In fact, this leather jacket that she's going to pick up in a minute and put on is supposed to be her father's jacket. It's mentioned in the script, it's not really mentioned in the dialog, it's just a bit of background texture on the character and tells you something about her. There's a mood about this scene. This scene doesn't move the plot forward, except in a tiny way later when they get the car keys. The character aspect of it, what it says about Kara Thrace, I think is fascinating. And there's something great about the fact that at the end of this scene, all they do is sit there and rest and take a break. Because these guys have been on the run pretty much since the pilot.

    --

    There was also a significant story cut here. There was a whole bit of business here when Lee calls in to Tigh and tells him where he is and what he's doing, and Tigh says, "Where are you? What are you doing?" And he says, "We're down here, I've got these marines with me," and Tigh mainly goes, "Let me talk to private Kelso." And Lee says, "What? What are you talking about? I'm in command of this mission." And he says, "No you're not, I'm relieving you as of this moment. Give me private Kelso." And Lee says, "What's going on? I'm the officer, you give the orders through me." And Tigh went off on him under the stress. "You have disappointed everybody in you're life. You can't be counted on. Now give me fracking private!" And Lee, shocked by that, told him, "This is my comand, you have orders, you give them through me," and Tigh had to acquiesce to that and finally give it to him. At the end sequence, when they're both next to Adama's bed, there was an exchange between Tigh and Lee, part of which is still there. Lee said, "Did my father really say those things about me?" because Lee assumes that Tigh is parroting something that he heard Adama say. But no, it's actually that the Old Man thought that "his sun rises and sets on you. And I don't know for the life of me why. You put a gun to my head. You chose that woman over him." I think you are a loser, basically... It was one of those things that ultimately I was wrong about. When I saw it in the cut, I didn't like it either, felt it wasn't appropriate, and decided to cut it.

    --

    A nice little callback about "I'll roll the hard six" that Lee comes up with from his dad even though he doesn't know what the hell that actually means, which I think is charming and wonderful.

    --

    At some point we had to decide, do they have cars on Caprica? Well, it is a sister world to ours, but what's a car gonna look like? Is it just gonna be just a Ford or something? There was lots of discussion, but finally we said, "You know what? Whatever." She's got a car, let's give her something tough, and a car I like, so we went for a Humvee kind of vehicle, and just went for it. Because it just became too tedious and annoying to try and come up with the futuristic car. "It's a Caprica car, it's not a recognizable car." Who cares. This feels like something Kara would drive.

    --

    I'm verry happy on balance of all the reshoots that we did, that we added them into the show, that it does provide a little more humanity into it, and just get to spend more time with these characters I think is the biggest plus that came out of the effort to go back and really keep working on this particular episode. Overall, "Valley of Darkness" now feels like a full meal, it feels like a richer meal, it feels like we've really expanded the language of what was really happening in this particular episode... I'm very proud of "Valley of Darkness". A tremendous amount of time and effort went into this piece by a lot of people to make it all that it could be. In the end, I think it's a really good one. I think it's a worthy episode, and it doesn't suffer from the sophomore slump. I think it really does carry forward, and it feels like season two is really going places and doing things that season one could only hint at. And the characters all seem deeper and richer and the show just feels like it's really hitting on all cylinders.
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  7. #7
    Brigadier General LoneStar1836's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwall
    Did anyone else notice that one of the Centurions seemed to bleed when shot? It could have been blood from a previous victim, I suppose... but if the Centurions are cyborgs like the Raiders and Base Stars it would explain a lot.
    I first thought that when I saw that, but I think it was just blood from one of their victims. I dont think Billy actually hit it when he fired. Hehe. I just knew that Lee should have never given him a weapon. Anyway I dont think he hit it because both Cylons turned around and walked back to where the shot was fired from.

    Yeah, the stuff on Galactica was more filler than really good substance, but I didnt mind because you got a glimpse of just how the Cylons would operate if they got on board - depressurizing the entire ship and then firing on the rest of the fleet. It obviously is a tactic they always use since Tigh knew where they were headed so.. Is it honestly a good idea to have some button that says Press to depressurize entire ship here. Why would such an option exist? Im sure its a little more complicated than one button, but
    IMO always implied.

  8. #8
    Second Lieutenant Jonisa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    I agree with everyone else that this was a fantastic episode. For me, SG1 and SGA are just warmups until I get to my show. Kudos to the producers and writers and actors for creating such wonderful balance between characterization, plot, suspense...you name it, this show delivers. I love the complexity of it.

    Looking at all the different threads of the episode:

    Baltar/Six: She is one clever Cylon, as she slowly leads him where she wants him to go. This episode he seemed to be really buying in to this whole baby thing. If this is the beginning of him turning to help the Cylons over the humans I find it very believable that his character is not this one-dimensional evil guy as he was in the original, but instead a very weak-minded, vainglorious and selfish person who was manipulated into working against the humans. I loved the way they foreshadowed the Baltar/Adama antagonism. Very creepy with the baby.

    Kara/Helo. Awww. Just awww. What a welcome break in the midst of all the intensity on the Galactica and Kobol. And how poignant--reminders of a home they'll never have again. Kara might say she's not fighting for her home, but she didn't convince me of that by her actions. Nice friendship between the two, as well. I hope they keep it that way. (Firmly on the Lee/Kara ship, because I trust these writers with that sort of thing.)

    Tyrol/Cally/Socinus: Poor, poor Tyrol. It really came across how deeply he cares and how much he feels responsible for his men. I found it interesting that Crashdown wants command, but then when it comes to the difficult things, such as getting the medkit, or the agonizing things, such as the mercy killing of Socinus, he's happy to let Tyrol do it. Some leader. They just have to be going for a Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan dynamic with these scenes as well as last week's. They did well, I thought. And how much did I love Cally's "motherfrakkin'" freakout, which ended in both Tyrol and Cally's nervous giggling?

    Lee Adama: I don't know if I can love this character more than I do now. Lee gets to play the hero, but you can see he's scared. "Headshot, reload, headshot, reload, headshot, reload." He seemed so terribly sad to me as well. I found it telling that when Jammer said that the Cylon didn't look so big anymore after Lee shot him Lee looked over at the dead man and quietly said they still looked plenty big, or words to that affect. I was really affected by those dead bodies, as I kept thinking that they don't have that many people to spare!

    Jamie Bamber's interview about Lee being completely alone was right on too, wasn't it? He has no one to rely on, no one to confide in. He did what he had to, without question, but without any expectations either. This will him make a much stronger person, I think, but unfortunately also one who seems pretty resigned to an unhappy existence. He seems almost bitter.

    Lee/Tigh: Loved their exchange at the end. They are so different and I don't know that they'll ever understand each other. Tigh is all about loyalty to a person--William Adama. Lee is all about loyalty to ideals, to what he believes is "right". Yet even though he went against his father's orders you could see the deep love and respect he has for him as he stood there by his father's bedside. All these characters bump up against each other in such fascinating ways.

    Well there. That's probably enough. What's scary is that I can think of a bunch more things that I could still remark on, but I'll stop here. This show is so rich, I don't think my musings do it justice.

    I can't wait until next week!
    Last edited by Jonisa; July 23rd, 2005 at 02:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Major keshou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    This really is a great show, isn't it? I enjoyed SG-1 and SGA - Scifi Fridays have been fun so far. But BSG? I LOVE this show. There's hardly anything to nitpick.

    Thanks for typing up some of the podcast larocque6689 - I haven't had a chance to listen to all of it yet.

    I really liked the intensity of this episode. First real hand-to-hand fighting we've seen with a band of Cylons. I knew they were lethal but it's interesting to see their tactics at work and see what their vulnerabilities are.

    I really liked Lee in this. You know in every war there are men/women who end up as reluctant heros and I feel like that's what Lee is. Not a natural warrior he can nevertheless rise to the occasion. And he has principles.

    Tigh. He's tough to like. If Lee is the reluctant warrior/leader, Tigh is the perfect example of the Peter Principle at work. He's definitely been promoted up to his level of incompetence. Such an interesting character. Great scene between Lee and Tigh when they were standing by the old man's bed.

    Tyrol. Poor, poor Tyrol. Such a wrenching scene when he comforts his dying friend. Wow - just broke my heart. Everything going on with the Kobol group is interesting and I keep feeling like it's going to lead to something big - just not sure what.

    Baltar is clearly going nuts. If I were Adama I'd watch my back. It IS interesting how invested Baltar is getting in this whole baby thing. I have no idea where they're going to go with that.

    Kara/Helo. I just love those two together and I loved those scenes in her apartment. Great piano music - which I've read elsewhere was by Philip Glass. Ron Moore is smart enough to know that quiet scenes can do more to establish characters and relationships than non-stop action. I also thought seeing Kara's apartment - with all the paintings - helped remind us how much these people have lost. Their homes, their belongings, their past, many of their friends. Wonder how much gas Kara has in her truck?

    Well Dualla/Dee was on my list as a possible Cylon and she's still on my list. Yes - very convenient that she survived. I don't think Billy is on my Cylon list though. He's just too much of a woobie. If he's a Cylon he's like the worst Cylon ever.

    Can't wait for next week. This show is like crack.
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  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant Vala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwall
    What exactly do you mean by this?
    if you didn't "get" that its extremely sad... Apollo is the boring character on the show, the only thing I like about his character are his conversations with Roslin. Him getting that monologue at the end of the episode was probably one of the best scenes of the shows run and they gave it to him (kinda had to though) therefore substance.

  11. #11
    Brigadier General LoneStar1836's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Yes, it is like crack. And I thought GateWorld was prime grade crack. BSG is uncut cocaine.

    Quote Originally Posted by keshou
    I don't think Billy is on my Cylon list though. He's just too much of a woobie. If he's a Cylon he's like the worst Cylon ever.
    And just what is a woobie?
    He was never on my list. He is a terrible Cylon if he is, though, and thats why he will turn out to be a one.

    I thought the Hummer was cool. How fitting for Starbuck. No station wagons or vans or other wimpy vehicles for her. Im not too sure they will have to worry about the how much gas it had. I dont see the vehicle lasting too long with all those Cylons prowling around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonisa
    And how poignant--reminders of a home they'll never have again. Kara might say she's not fighting for her home, but she didn't convince me of that by her actions. Nice friendship between the two, as well. I hope they keep it that way. (Firmly on the Lee/Kara ship, because I trust these writers with that sort of thing.)
    Yeah, I dont totally think she believes that either. I just think with all the sh*t that has happened to her in the past couple of episodes going back to KLG, shes really been thrown off balance and isnt quite sure why she is fighting or what she is fighting for other than her own existence. Adama has betrayed her trust, one of her best friends is a Cylon

    Please keep it as friendship. For the briefest of seconds, I thought that they might try to play up a little more than the friendship angle in this ep. Im leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but Im not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet. Im kind of gun shy from SG-1.
    IMO always implied.

  12. #12
    Major keshou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
    Please keep it as friendship. For the briefest of seconds, I thought that they might try to play up a little more than the friendship angle in this ep. Im leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but Im not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet. Im kind of gun shy from SG-1.
    I like Kara and Helo together a lot - she needs a friend. But that's all I'm seeing so far.

    And shhhh....don't tell anyone - I kind of got interested in the whole Kara/Lee thing when I was watching the reruns. I sure don't trust the Stargate writers with a shippy pen in their hands but maybe Ron Moore will be able to pull it off. I'm watching with interest.
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  13. #13
    Second Lieutenant Vala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    I want Starbuck and Helo to get it on!

  14. #14
    Second Lieutenant Jonisa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
    Im leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but Im not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet. Im kind of gun shy from SG-1.
    Oh, I hear you about being gunshy from SG-1, believe me. I've already blathered on about my feelings on that issue in other places. I'm not standing around waving a Lee/Kara banner either, but I'll admit it, I'm intrigued by the possibility.

    The reason I'm for Lee/Kara is because these two characters have soooo many issues, both individually and as a couple, that any sort of ship between them is going to be complex and messy and a long time coming, if ever. If anyone has already shown that he can write complicated characters slowly coming together in an interesting and believable way, it's Ron Moore and his group of writers.

    I'm curious to see how they handle it, if they decide to go there. And frankly, they've hinted that they might be heading in that direction eventually, especially at the end of Season 1. Of course, with these writers, it won't be anything that we expect, that's for sure.

  15. #15
    Major Jeff O'Connor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    All right, well, bleh. I promised my pseudo-review of the week so here it comes, another big, tough post on par with you other CAGs! I'll keep the same formula as before, since it seemed to work fairly well -- listing what I liked, going into decent detail about these things then going into whatever little tidbits I can possibly find that weren't absolutely splendid in my opinion, discuss briefly and then finish up with my little scorecard ceremony.

    Hehe, man, I almost sound like I know what I'm doing. Here goes...


    What did I like about 'Valley of Darkness', one might find themselves asking...


    Starbuck and Helo! Starbuck and Helo!

    Ahmigoodness, I absolutely love them together! One episode, one frakking episode with them together and I... can't contemplate their being separated anymore. I'm serious, I... the chemistry -- am I the only one feeling a powerful chemistry between them? No, I'm not specifically speaking of a relationship in the sense of sex, romance -- though I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility -- I'm talking about just... a deep, spiritual bond they share and it's rich and it's poignant and I was blown away. I really like Starbuck and Apollo... I do, really, I do... but I'm at a loss for words. I thought it'd be awkward, I thought I'd be missing Boomer and Helo, Lee and Kara... I'm not, I'm really not. Not quite so much, I should say. Going into detail, now, rather than fan raving...

    The scene between them, scenes, rather, in her apartment was pure brilliance. The artwork, the cassette tape, her monologue, his simplistic reactions of content and relaxation, the mess, her feelings, their rest, their moment's peace... I was in awe, somehow. In fact, taking a second here to express my feelings regarding the artwork in particular... someone seriously does need to demonstrate a stillframe of whatever was written back there, I read only a little in my small chance to do so and am entirely intrigued. Kara's speaking of how she didn't fight to gain what was lost, but because she knew nothing else, was... quite simply put, captivating and thought-provoking entertainment at its paramount.


    Lee Adama, he's our man! If he can't shoot it, no one can!


    Boy, I couldn't think of a better strapping lad to have on my side in a wartime situation than Commander Adama's very own son, ready at a heartbeat's notice to temporarily shelter himself from entirely visible fear and instead focus upon the here and now, and solve a problem, work things through and reassure the rest've a petrified squadron that everything will be all right. His tenacity, his willpower are shining examples of the humanity within us all and his ultimate loyalty not to his father who he loves, not to any single person at all, really, but instead to the principles of freedom and integrity are... impressive isn't enough. Downright envigorating, if not viscerally inspiring to the utmost degree.

    Apollo, his dedication to the situation despite numerous personal catastrophes unfolding all around him, his relentless, vigorous approach are deep-rooted principles which compel and propel his every action, especially in recent times. Despite fallouts and miscalculations, he's done the right thing and this time around, these gut feelings of his paid off tenfold. No, he didn't technically do anything spectacular in the sense that his knowledge saved the ship -- that was Tigh's expertise -- but his words of wisdom imparted upon a 'fledgling' officer which strengthened, his tactics displayed upon the others which proved needed, his forced calmness despite obvious distress which kept the group stable... beautifully executed. I've been in the little camp off to the side who's liked this guy from first moment we saw him and I've stayed there and now, I'm damned glad I have. Keep it up, Apollo, and the worst CAG in the history of CAGs? I think not, Kara.

    Tigh me up, Tigh me down... I'll still be sober enough to point fingers!

    Although this time around, that infamous finger-pointing from the good old boy with a desperate housewife was moreso beneficial to our ragtag three-dimensionals than time-consuming and unneeded. Way to go, Saul, your mind's proven to me for the second time in the second season, alcoholism hasn't granted you a loss for all things important... something I'd been beginning to consider having happened by the tail end of the first year, no doubt. His intuition, his remembering Centurion battle tactics was the leading cause for Galactica's survival during this dark time. Or, should I say, darker than usual?

    Knowing where they were going, Tigh managed command quite well from his place and shuffled things well, too -- of course, there was, perhaps, my favorite scene in the episode, right at the very end, which blew me away -- his conversation with Lee beside the stabilized Adama. I decided to incorporate this into Tigh over Lee in terms of discussion because I believe he instigated the matter, which led to brilliant words by the latter. Never before, save perhaps Starbuck's comments in this same episode, have I been so moved by a few lines on a television episode... with, possibly, the exception of a couple of 'Farscape' moments. Lee Adama's statement resided within my head for the duration of the night, thereafter -- gripping, intelligent, seizing of the opportunity... and it actually shut them both up and wrapped things terrifically.


    Who dares, wins.

    I believe that's the British Navy's motto, isn't it? I know it's the British... something-or-other's, I can't quite recall which. In truth, I heard it in 'Metal Gear Solid 2', a very good game about politics, willpower and all sorts of things. Anyway, enough of that -- time for the reason I wrote it, eh? I'm talking about the controversial scene featuring Adama taking the baby into the lake and also, the miniseries' eye-widening moment regarding Six's having killed a baby, herself. Of course, I'll be focusing on last night's episode's version, for obvious reasons.

    In fact, addressing the scene as a whole, it was incredible. Six's revelations, be they falsified or factual, regarding the true nature of Humans who thrived and then perished on Kobol were impressive and watching Gaius Baltar genuinely care about something living, breathing and not named Gaius Baltar was riveting. Now, one might argue through the courtesy of modern-day over-analysis that caring, concern for his flesh and blood was a selfish behavior no different than such a feeling for his limbs, but most would nonetheless agree that another person is another person, whether it was his mental offspring or no, it wasn't him and that's enough.

    Watching our beloved psychopath chasing after a single-minded imprint of William Adama, fail to save his child and scream in agony, only to be comforted by Six and her strong words of Cylonic nature was definitely interesting and far from the Sixex (pronounced 'Six-sex') I'd been getting a tad tired of -- it served its purpose, probably still does, but doesn't need to be displayed all the frakking time. This whole development is going to work wonderfully in future episodes and I can't wait. Baltar... you've gained some respect points today. Sort've. Oh... and the title of this section makes reference to Moore's decision to allow this powerful things to be shown. Awesome.


    We're going home...

    Chief Tyrol, you keep getting better and better. Your outburst, your anger, your sorrow, your compassion, your resolve, they're all so detailed, considering you don't get quite so much airtime as a few other characters, now do you? I agree with an above poster that Crashdown's quick allowance for Tyrol to give the lethal injection was a little pathetic, he isn't cut out to be a leader, that Crashdown, at least, not at this stage of his life. The good chief's words to his friend in this time of crisis were well-spoken, no doubt, and I honestly felt a stray tear strike my cheek. "We're going home..." Yeah... it's good to have him die with that thought, methinks. Beautiful... just listening to the birds.


    Try using her rank.

    Billy and Dee sure are cute together, though I can't help but agree she might be a Cylon, yes. Nevertheless, in the spirit of Boomer-esque fandom, I still can't help but like her, and I must admit their relationship is intriguing -- the young, innocent routine in a galaxy of remorse. In particular, though, I quoted from the episode to demonstrate my emotional reaction to Billy's initial failure to get the poor girl -- perhaps, I suppose, poor Cylon -- out've her trance state and Roslin's recommendation that he snap her out've it with the military routine.

    It made me remember, it reminded me, more like, of how brain-washing militaries can be, whether intentionally or other -- usually, intentionally, no doubt. She didn't hear him, she rambled... then he spoke her rank and she twitched, tilted, and jolted with happiness upon recognizing his face. Their moments from thereon out were well-done, I'd say, and their closing scene was a brief bit of joy which I smiled at for sure.


    Who ever said prison guards had to do nothing but toss meals?

    Terrible of me to not know his name by now, but the guard who's been on for two episodes, now, has had quite a bit of action and I've enjoyed his presence on the show, from the initial silent standing, to praying alongside Roslin, to watching over the President with genuine concern for her well-being in the midst of a Cylon boarding situation.


    Holy. Flying. Cylons.

    They leap. They lunge. 'Nuff said. Hot damn.


    I'd say there's even more this time, but if I want any hope whatsoever of anyone reading this, I'd best stop now and delve into what little I can nitpick about...

    O Boomer, Where Art Thou?

    All right, so, there's reasonable explanation behind her not being with the others on Caprica right now, but still, c'mon. Also, I'd like to have seen maybe five seconds with Centurions passing her, eyes widening or somesuch, on Galactica? Oh well, plenty of time to see more of her... them, yet.


    Shh, we need to whisper whilst driving around in my truck or the Cylons will hear us for sure.

    Okay, so one might argue that Helo figures he's been followed the whole time right now, anyway, what's a roaring engine gonna do as they high-tail it around? Then again, it's just something that didn't bode well, but sure, it's sort've added protection, faster transportation and his legs must ache like madness. Even then, it's just awkward... just a trite little nonsense complaint of mine regarding the matter, is all, I suppose.


    Shut the frak up, already, Jeff O'Connor! Give me your bloody score and be done with it!

    All right, all right, shutting up. My final score for tonight's episode is a stalwart 9.8/10, as opposed to last week's 9.6 -- I'm seriously trying to keep these things reasonable and with as little bias as possible but these are the numbers I'm getting, folks. I can't possibly think to make them lower... I'm clearly swept away by the wave that is Galactica. I liked 'Valley of Darkness' a bit more than 'Scattered' but have loved them both and I can only hope 'Fragged' lives up to its predecessors.
    If you've seen a Jeff O'Connor or a JeffZero or a Jeff Zero or a JeffZeroConnor elsewhere on the net, there's a considerable chance it's me.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vala
    I want Starbuck and Helo to get it on!

    HE_LO n STAR_BUCK, HE_LO n STAR_BUCK (chant with me now)

    i like helo. way cuter than lee. i admire helo. i want helo...um, never mind....

    where was i? oh yeah, the episode...

    wasn't liking it all that much....i was surprised to not like it that much.

    one of the very first episodes i've found myself going "well that's kinda goofy" to (besides the Bright Red Blood in "Scattered")

    i did like the starbuck apt/hummer thing - but she was all hurting and sore when they first got to the apt, yet when they were getting in the jeep she was practically doing jumping jacks! no soreness there, all cured by hummer-love??!

    and why can't they just go raid a grocery store for food or something? i mean, wouldn't y'all be doing some serious (albeit stealthy) raiding of necessary goods if stuck on caprica? (medical supplies, food, clothes, bottled water, etc)

    the med kit thing with the peeps on kobol, oh that was waaaay too "we're-in-nam-now".

    also, WHAT'S WITH NO ONE ON KOBOL HAVING AS YET WIPED THEIR B.R.B (BRIGHT RED BLOOD) OFF THEIR FACES???!!! I mean, c'mon, Six could maybe lick some off of baltar?

    and the adama/baby thing? i was expecting him to put the baby in a reed basket and push the wee one down the river a-la moses.

    that was too drawn out for a dream section....drowning was a better idea than the reed basket obviously -- (i mean, it's a dream induced make-believe cylon baby and all - let it be said that i am NOT for drowning babies, nor setting them adrift in reed baskets!!)

    sigh, this episode just didn't do it for me.

    the cylons were the best part.

    at first anyway.

    sigh, even with them, toward the end they were starting to prance a bit before being beheaded...prancing cylons.......NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

    Last edited by alki; July 23rd, 2005 at 06:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Second Lieutenant Liebestraume's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Valley of Darkness entertained on so many different levels that I could hardly gather my thoughts when the credits rolled. Nearly 24 hours apparently hadn't helped that much.

    First of all, thanks to larocque6689 for transcribing the podcast. I have not been listening to them this season for fear of spoilers. Reading the transcriptions now give me a new appreciation for what ended up on screen. For example, the bits about Tigh knowing where cylons were headed. Watching it I had thought it was the instinct of a seasoned soldier; now I know there was originally a backstory. But I think either way would work well.

    I was not expecting to be moved by the events on Kobol. None of my favorite characters (i.e., Lee, Kara, Roslin, and Adama) are there, and I had not always thought of Tyrol very highly. But seeing what he had gone through to only bring about the mercy-killing of a friend was extremely touching. The death scene itself was heart-rending and sobering all at once: no one had control over life and death, but the most precious gift one could bestow is mercy. Needless to say, I cried like a little girl.

    But the episode would not dwell on grief for long, for elsewhere humanity was fiercely fighting for its survival. I thought the action sequence on Galactica was extremely well done. I liked the juxtaposition of Roslin's group and Lee's, and that Cylon's menace was only felt, rather than shown, through the echo of their footsteps. And through the carnage they had left behind, which I especially appreciated, because it brought home the true nature of cylons, the precarious condition of humanity, and the bravery of those who serve aboard Galactica.

    And there is none braver than Captain Adama. I totally agree with keshou's comments on Lee:
    Quote Originally Posted by keshou
    I really liked Lee in this. You know in every war there are men/women who end up as reluctant heros and I feel like that's what Lee is. Not a natural warrior he can nevertheless rise to the occasion. And he has principles.
    Yes, one knows he is not a natural warrior like Kara, because he never "gets high" in this type of situations. All that mumbling -- he did in Hand of God and he did it here -- makes him look a bit nervous but all the more admirable in the end. That he knows what needs to be done and does it regardless personal cost is his most fundamental characterization -- I'm so head-over-heel with this fictional character, it's not even funny!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
    Interesting insights into Karas past life and about who she is - and all from just seeing her apartment, not to mention what she said. Someone needs to dig up a screencap of what she had painted on her wall - the writing. I wonder if Zaks death was somewhat of the inspiration of her paintings cause they didnt look like they were painted by a happy person, if she was ever a truly happy person sometime in her life.
    I don't think she ever was a happy person, and sometimes I even wonder how trully happy she had been with Zak. I am really happy for these glimpses into a character's basic make-up. If we had thought Lee's got his daddy issues, then, watch out, here comes Kara. Her (erstwhile secret) Bohemian side initially shcoked me a litte. Then she mentioned her artistic father -- just the wistfulness of her quite reminiscence -- made many things about her falling into places.
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

  18. #18

    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    I'm not sure what I'm blown away by more... the episode itself or the great reviews on this thread... Jeff, that was a fabulous review... couldn't have said it better myself... You've encapsulated so well the essence of characters and the highlights of the episode. The eloquence with which you've expressed your thoughts befits the lyrical nature of this episode.

    Have I ever said how much I love Lee... To see this uncertain, underestimated young man toddle through the enormity of his situation and showing himself to be capable of taking on the role of directing others has been very heartening and inspiring.
    Like many of you, I liked Lee almost from the start... what others perceived to be weakness, I saw to be thoughtfulness and integrity. I particularly like what Adama said to Kara in The Hand of God, "the cylons never asked us what we wanted" and that I think is more true of Lee than anyone else. No one ever asks Lee what he wants but here he is time and time again, doing what he has to do to protect others, to put himself in between the enemy and those who cannot defend themselves. It is so good and so rare to see a young man in a television show today completely driven by principle and not ego. *sigh* The renegade, hormonally driven pubescent male can take its toll on one's patience.

    In my eyes, Lee is becoming Apollo... he can be the hunter and shows that he has the potential to be the healer also. I understand why he is the loner... he has to be... because in the midst of the chaos and uncertainty, someone needs to take a few steps backwards and ask all the difficult questions.

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

  19. #19
    Major Jeff O'Connor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Well said, Easter Lily! I, in turn, couldn't have put it any better, myself in regard to Lee -- you've essentially taken those subconscious feelings I've felt and brought them into light to be examined more thoroughly out in the open like so. He is becoming Apollo... agreed, through and through!

    Thank you, by the way, for the compliments, too! Hehe.
    If you've seen a Jeff O'Connor or a JeffZero or a Jeff Zero or a JeffZeroConnor elsewhere on the net, there's a considerable chance it's me.

  20. #20
    Second Lieutenant Liebestraume's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valley of Darkness (2x2)

    Jeff, thanks for the comprehensive review. I agree with you on every point therein, with two possible exceptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff O'Connor
    ... watching Gaius Baltar genuinely care about something living, breathing and not named Gaius Baltar was riveting. Now, one might argue through the courtesy of modern-day over-analysis that caring, concern for his flesh and blood was a selfish behavior no different than such a feeling for his limbs, but most would nonetheless agree that another person is another person, whether it was his mental offspring or no, it wasn't him and that's enough.
    Baltar is positively certifiable these days, but I don't think he's changed fundamentally. Indeed, he does care about something that is that named Gaius Baltar, but only because that something is The Legacy of Gaius Baltar. What he saw in that "baby" was not so much of a living, breathing entity, only an extension of himself much beyond flesh and bones.

    When the mini began, Baltar was just a lecherous coward with a much inflated ego. He still knew right from wrong, had the desire to do the right thing -- much like us -- only his actions were always tinted by excessive self-consideration.

    But he has gone much beyond that since then. All those religous mumbo-jumbo Six whispered in his ear were meant to stroke his ego -- how he was the chosen vessel, the progenitor of "the shape of things to come" -- and it has worked like a charm. Recall that Jesus-like pose at the end of 6 Degrees of Separation, methinks that was the shape of things to come. I don't think Baltar is quite evil yet, but he is well on his way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff O'Connor
    Terrible of me to not know his name by now, but the guard who's been on for two episodes, now, has had quite a bit of action and I've enjoyed his presence on the show, from the initial silent standing, to praying alongside Roslin, to watching over the President with genuine concern for her well-being in the midst of a Cylon boarding situation.
    Good of you to actually remember the guard, for most people -- myself included -- he was probably only a blip on the radar . But, yes, this show is really good in that it remembers these "small people." Details like that add credence to the story and make it relevant to the viewers. But I do wonder how much of the gaurd's change of attitude has to do with his belief in Roslin as the prophet ...
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde

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