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  1. #21
    Lieutenant Colonel blingaway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I just watched Learning Curve again today, and got to wondering about the future societal implications.

    Any decent culture cares for their members who are impaired in some way, through congential defects or by trauma, and decent people harbor no predjudice for those who cannot learn. The people of Orban take pride in how well they care for their ex-super-learners, and I can see how with the nanite learning process they use that it just may not have occured to them to try to teach the children.

    With teaching, the ex-uron children will be able to participate in the society again but they will be fundamentally different from the majority population who rely on nanites. Will they be allowed to pursue the subjects they once had mastered, or will it be considered redundant and pointless, even if it interests the child?

    Will they have equal access to resources to develop traditional schools for learning? Will the Orban nanite people try to take an "equal but separate" approach to the ex-uron people? The nanite-less people will be a small minority, and the Orbanian people seems focused on quick advancement. It would take an awfully compassionate set of leaders to try to keep the ex-urons fully integrated into the life and societal structure on Orban and not just consider them baggage.

  2. #22
    First Lieutenant LMichelle's Avatar
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    Post Re: Learning Curve (305)

    It seems to me he did a quick turn around of how to "teach" the children.

    Jack was imposing his ideas on another culture, emphasizing fun and play over constant work. That is the way American culture is, but the Orbans had no concept of it. From our standpoint, they were abusing and neglecting their children. "Well cared for" means different things to different people.

    We may feel a certain idea or belief is wrong, but each society has its own set of standards and norms. Who should judge what those are?

    Lisa Michelle

  3. #23
    Captain Daniel's_twin's Avatar
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    Earth Symbol Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I agree that Jack shouldn't have said that they didn't deserve their children, but I'm glad he helped the Orbans realize that "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". (pardon the pun) But they never explained why the Goa'uld left, did they? halfway through, Daniel stopped searching and the focus was centered on Jack and the girl. Bit surprised he didn't give her a dog, too.
    Yes, I really do look like (a younger) Daniel. Don't believe me? Look for yourself.

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  4. #24
    Chief Master Sergeant Jane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I love the relationship between Merin and Jack. Kids just seem to like him so much.

  5. #25
    Captain Daniel's_twin's Avatar
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    Earth Symbol Re: Learning Curve (305)

    Well, that's 'cause he's like a kid himself. And he's fun. And he's like a kid (did I already say that?)
    Yes, I really do look like (a younger) Daniel. Don't believe me? Look for yourself.

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  6. #26
    Staff Sergeant Naquida Guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    "We may feel a certain idea or belief is wrong, but each society has its own set of standards and norms. Who should judge what those are? "

    Really, I think that sums up Jack O'Neill though. Jack has a very black and white view of the world, and he's very consistant in his expression of it. When he orders Carter to blow up the Naquida generator in Scorched Earth, or when he passes judgment upon another civlization in Beneath the Surface. Heck, when he orders the Iris closed in The Other Side (and you can see Sam doesn't like that decision). Things are always right or wrong with Jack, and if he feels strongly enough about something, he doesn't much care what his superiors (or anyone else) think of it.

    I did think this was a really great Jack episode; it really gives you the 'softer side of Jack' which often dissapears under his military personality.

  7. #27
    First Lieutenant SmartFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    One thing i hated about this ep is how Jack and the rest of SG-1 tried to force their ideas and believes on to the Orbans. Just because we believe our way is right does not neccesarily mean it is. Of course this does accuratly project the American society and our believes. Which is probably why i didn't like this ep as much.
    Glad i get to see how we got our naquadah reactors though.

  8. #28
    Chief Master Sergeant RubyRed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I like what jack did. I know the orbans think their ways are right but i just can't stop thinking that is so wrong. They used their children and make them work like maniacs and then when they have to give up their knowledge they are like vegetables. they are like numb. they look like they don't feel anything have no idea what the hell is going on. is like they are born at the age of 12. i was glad that sam agree with jack even thougth she knew that they couldn't just take her. but at leas jack gave her the chance to be a kid at least for a few hours. i guess jack didn't get court marshal cause deep down General Hammond agree with him. or maybe it is that SG1 is too valuable to the SGC. I mean we have heard Hammond again and again saying SG1 is he's best team.

  9. #29
    Major Celsius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I agree with Naquida Boy, Jack has very strong values of how he believes people should behave and is not shy in making his voice be heard, even when it really isn't his palce to dictate how a culture should or shouldn't behave.

    It's basically like Western civilization's protest to female circumcision in parts of Africa; we may see it as barbaric, but it is that culture's own tradition, and the question really is, how much of a right do we have to change that?

    Yes the Orlans were different, and they were basically using children as machines. Of course, Jack's intervention has beneficial consequences, but it could quite as easily have resulted in mass chaos for the Orlans (though that would have really destroyed the point of the episode).

    As much as Jack may not like it, the Orlans have their own ways, and if everyone everywhere were to act exactly the same and share the same attitudes and values, then there would be no uniqueness and cultures would lose the identity they have strived to maintain for centuries.


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  10. #30
    Chief Master Sergeant Spiko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    No culture is perfect. All cultures vary and that is what makes this world (hopefully there's someone else in the universe too) great.

    I disagree with how SG-1 believed that they were right and the Orbanians were wrong. That made me so mad. I would have expected better at least from Daniel, even though they probly had best intentions in mind. Like Celsius and Smart Fox, I agree that it is not our place to judge.

    IMO, Merrin was the wisest in this episode. She went through the Averrium. Not only did she deliver necessary scientific knowledge to her people. She delivered knowledge that made everyone's life on Orbana much happier. This is what Daniel is talking about when he says that there are other reasons for alliances than technological advancements. To exchange cultural ideas and learn from them:

    Now, the Orbanians know they don't have to forget and discard the past-Orun children.

    Now, hopefully, Jack and the SGC have learned to be more accepting of other cultures. And I do think this is so because when Jack saw Merrin drawing he smiled at her as if it was all ok now.

    Both Cultures learned from eachother.
    Yo no sé.

  11. #31
    Second Lieutenant ApophisOfTheStargateRealm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    did not like it
    "A general is only as good as the people he commands."

  12. #32
    Second Lieutenant QuiGonJohn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I liked it, But it would seem more beneficial for these super-kids to teach dozens (or more) of the other Orban what they know, rather than passing on nanites.

    I also wish they would have looked more into why the Goa'uld left Orban, as well as, them mentioning that the Goa'uld may have been on Earth as recently as the eighth century AD, causing the downfall of the Teotihuacan, the people from whom the Orbanians are descended.
    Last edited by QuiGonJohn; April 29th, 2005 at 10:47 AM.

  13. #33
    Captain Beatrice Otter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    Quote Originally Posted by blingaway
    I just watched Learning Curve again today, and got to wondering about the future societal implications.

    Any decent culture cares for their members who are impaired in some way, through congential defects or by trauma, and decent people harbor no predjudice for those who cannot learn. The people of Orban take pride in how well they care for their ex-super-learners, and I can see how with the nanite learning process they use that it just may not have occured to them to try to teach the children.

    With teaching, the ex-uron children will be able to participate in the society again but they will be fundamentally different from the majority population who rely on nanites. Will they be allowed to pursue the subjects they once had mastered, or will it be considered redundant and pointless, even if it interests the child?

    Will they have equal access to resources to develop traditional schools for learning? Will the Orban nanite people try to take an "equal but separate" approach to the ex-uron people? The nanite-less people will be a small minority, and the Orbanian people seems focused on quick advancement. It would take an awfully compassionate set of leaders to try to keep the ex-urons fully integrated into the life and societal structure on Orban and not just consider them baggage.
    Are they capable of learning the old-fashioned way anymore? The brain is a fragile thing, and by the time one reaches puberty the ability of the brain to recover from or compensate for severe trauma (such as removing a large portion of the cells, artificial or otherwise, that make up the brain) is not really that great. Those nanites were functioning as the neurons that stored complex data, and did so almost from birth. How much would the brain have rerouted from birth to take advantage of those artificial neurons? And how much would it have to reroute functions to deal with the sudden loss of those neurons? I'd bet that it pretty much fries the higher cognitive processes--and that's why the kids are in that institution. I mean, if they're normal intelligence, even if they can't learn the way other people do they could still live with their families, when you consider that their families are obviously proud of them and care for them. But if they're funtionally retarded, well, then it makes much more sense to institutionalize them. Notice that Merrin doesn't talk at all when Jack comes to visit her; neither does what's-his-name, the kid Daniel and Teal'c visited earlier. The kids are happier with the knowledge of how to play and finger-paint and stuff, which is all to the good--but that doesn't change what's been done to them.
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    Now, there's this about cynicism. It's the universe's most supine moral position. Real comfortable. If nothing can be done, then you're not some kind of **** for not doing it, and you can lie there and stink to yourself in perfect peace.
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  14. #34
    Captain Beatrice Otter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    Quote Originally Posted by stargate barbie
    goood episode. can't believe most of the stuff the air force advisors let sg-1, hammond and jack in particular away with. but hey, its just a tv show. i keep trying to remind myself of that.

    great character interaction in this one. some great lines. plus we get the naquadah reactor. yay. and we see that sam isn't completely super sam, when she has some minor trouble understanding the exact workings of the reactor at first. i never got that whole super sam thing myself though.

    still though. i liked this one a lot.
    Well, I do think there would have been more severe repercussions in rl for Jack's stunt. But as to his general insobordinate nature? Season 4, "Prodigy." General Ryan, who visits at the beginning of the ep? That was really General Ryan, the head of the AF at the time. RDA asked him if there were really colonels in the USAF as cocky and mouthy as him. Ryan replied to the effect that there were many who were worse, and he was doing a fine job.
    My LiveJournal.

    If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere.
    -Frank A. Clark

    An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
    -Michel de Saint-Pierre

    Now, there's this about cynicism. It's the universe's most supine moral position. Real comfortable. If nothing can be done, then you're not some kind of **** for not doing it, and you can lie there and stink to yourself in perfect peace.
    -Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Borders of Infinity"

  15. #35
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    That was really General Ryan, the head of the AF at the time. RDA asked him if there were really colonels in the USAF as cocky and mouthy as him. Ryan replied to the effect that there were many who were worse, and he was doing a fine job.
    Hmm - that's an interesting peice of information, thanks for sharing it

    --

    I thought this episode was overall interesting - it was another nice non-action episode, although it did get a little slow in places, which is my only criticism.

    It was nice to see this side of Jack with his reactions to the children, and was also nice to see the school scenes outisde the SGC. It shows good depth to his character, and is interesting in relationship to what we know happened with Charlie.

    Also, I enjoyed seeing a culture with different perspectives to ours in this way, and the reactions this caused. Something so different to what we are used to.

  16. #36
    Second Lieutenant Perriman33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I like to see episodes like this where they are visiting new planets(which is why I started watching in the first place). It's good to see how the writers and production team think how a different civilisation would be. And this was certainly different,the kids were great and it was nice to see jack in his element. Enjoyable one-off.

  17. #37
    Airman Ascendant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naquida Guy
    Really, I think that sums up Jack O'Neill though. Jack has a very black and white view of the world, and he's very consistant in his expression of it. When he orders Carter to blow up the Naquida generator in Scorched Earth, or when he passes judgment upon another civlization in Beneath the Surface. Heck, when he orders the Iris closed in The Other Side (and you can see Sam doesn't like that decision). Things are always right or wrong with Jack, and if he feels strongly enough about something, he doesn't much care what his superiors (or anyone else) think of it.
    True. Jack's something of a contradiction that way, though. I would say he's probably the most pragmatic out of the four - he seems the most willing to turn a blind eye to things that might be right for us but not for other people (hence his suicide mission to destroy the Stargate, Abydonians and all, in the movie). He's military-minded that way. On the other hand, when something rubs him the wrong way morally he won't rest until he's made it better. He can be everything from a kidnapper to a stone-cold angel of death when he feels his wrath is riteous.

    Decent episode. Great concept, but zero action. Cute kid, I like her interactions with Carter. Still a little unclear as to what Jack taught Merrin by having her paint abstractly...seemed a little mean about it. But I guess he got the job done. Fun watching him with the kids.

    I like his last line to Merrin, too, when they're drawing on the wall. "Do you know what a dog is? Dogs are some of my favorite people."

  18. #38

    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I like to see episodes like this where they are visiting new planets and no loneger going to Abydos and Chulak or staying on Earth! And this was certainly different,the kids were great and it was nice to see RDA in his element playing Jack. Enjoyable one-off.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    I still felt it was wrong of Jack to disturb the other race's culture. We shouldn't dictate what others should do.

  20. #40
    Second Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Learning Curve (305)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tezzador
    I still felt it was wrong of Jack to disturb the other race's culture. We shouldn't dictate what others should do.

    That's the only thing I did not like about this episode, pretty solid episode, IMHO.

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