The Tok'ra, Part 2 (212)

[EvenstarSRV]

For the challenge thread...

I caught a rerun of The Tok'ra two-parter late last night and it reminded me just how much I love the Jacob Carter and Martouf characters and their respective relationships with Sam, as well as the further exploration of Jolinar and the Tok'ra.

Jacob is one of my absolute favorite reoccurring Stargate characters, I loved the development we saw of his character and his relationship with Sam from Secrets to the end of this episode. From the estranged father/daughter dynamic, to that wonderful scene of Jacob telling Sam how proud he is of her, as well as the teasing between them, Sam saying he can crack himself up with Selmak and Jacob teasing her about now being the wisest Tok'ra.

I also really liked the scene between Sam and Hammond, showing that despite their estrangement Sam knows how her father thinks, but also seems to be unaware of how much she has in common with Jacob, that she also is sometimes too concerned with wanting to be the strong soldier. Also liked the scenes with Hammond and Jacob in the hospital and at the end, Hammond knowing Jacob enough to call him on the good soldier routine, and Jacob telling Hammond he made the right call on the Tok'ra.

But as much as I loved the Sam/Jacob scenes, probably my favorite parts of the episode were the exploration into Jolinar, especially showing how much that experience still effects Sam. I always felt that Jolinar must have been such a devastating experience for Sam, someone who's identity is founded in a large part on her ability to control and focus her mind, to have her memories and feelings so scrambled that she can't control them. So it was great to see that inner turmoil shown in her reaction to the possibility of becoming a host again, her confusion at feeling Jolinar's love for Martouf, etc.

I enjoyed Jack, Daniel, and Teal'c parts in the episodes, Teal'c expressing his admiration for Garshaw's efforts, Jack uncovering the spy, and Daniel trying to reason with the Tok'ra to become allies. But the emotional weight of the two-parter, for me, was centered around Sam and Jacob, so theirs' are the storylines and emotional beats that I enjoyed most.

I was going to say more about the Tok'ra, but the Final Four games are starting. Go Heels!

[amconway]

Usually, we have some point of difference about episodes that I can pick up on and further the discussion, but not in this case. All I can say here would be 'Is that basketball?' And 'Go your team!'

[EvenstarSRV]

Usually, we have some point of difference about episodes that I can pick up on and further the discussion, but not in this case.

Wow, that's a first.

Maybe this will help:

As you know, I love shades of gray to characters, both the 'good' guys and the 'bad'. So perhaps my favorite aspect of the Tok'ra is that they give a different angle on the nature of the Goa'uld, that there exists parasites who have chosen to oppose the System Lords and work with the Tau'ri to defeat them.

That being said, I also like that in this episode, and others down the line, the Tok'ra are not shown as being wholly good either. It's hard to argue the fact that even though Jolinar gave her life to save Sam at the end of ITLOD, it was her selfish act in the first place that put Sam's life in danger; but within one episode we saw both the 'bad' and the 'good' of the character.

I think we saw the same with these Tok'ra. We saw hints of the 'bad', not letting SG-1 go, and denying that they have anything to offer the Tok'ra despite the intelligence they gave about Apophis's ships. And we also saw the 'good', not forcing them into being hosts, letting Sam and Jack go back for Jacob and letting the teams go once the base was under attack.

So yeah, I really like the Tok'ra, and (in spoilers just in case RE: Unending)

Spoiler:

I sincerely hope they don't end up meeting the same fate as Earth's other main ally, the Asgard.

All I can say here would be 'Is that basketball?' And 'Go your team!'

Yep, NCAA College Basketball and my alma matar is playing in the championship!

*wishes she was on Franklin Street jumping over bonfires*

[amconway]

Wow, that's a first.

Maybe this will help:

As you know, I love shades of gray to characters, both the 'good' guys and the 'bad'. So perhaps my favorite aspect of the Tok'ra is that they give a different angle on the nature of the Goa'uld, that there exists parasites who have chosen to oppose the System Lords and work with the Tau'ri to defeat them.

That being said, I also like that in this episode, and others down the line, the Tok'ra are not shown as being wholly good either. It's hard to argue the fact that even though Jolinar gave her life to save Sam at the end of ITLOD, it was her selfish act in the first place that put Sam's life in danger; but within one episode we saw both the 'bad' and the 'good' of the character.

I think we saw the same with these Tok'ra. We saw hints of the 'bad', not letting SG-1 go, and denying that they have anything to offer the Tok'ra despite the intelligence they gave about Apophis's ships. And we also saw the 'good', not forcing them into being hosts, letting Sam and Jack go back for Jacob and letting the teams go once the base was under attack.

Yeah, that helps! Unfortunately we've already have much of the conversation in our long discussion of 'Bloodlines' - the aspect that deals with the nature of the Goa'uld symbiotes themselves. A slightly different aspect of that presents itself, though. That being that even withought the Goa'uld genetic memory that was kept from them by Egeria, they still display noticable arrogance and a willingness to excuse taking a host against their will, when 'necessary'. They also display a certain knowledge that this behavior which might be instinctual is wrong, and some of them seem to suffer from it less than others. I wonder if that's the influence of the hosts? It's also interesting to note that it is almost always the Goa'uld who speaks.

You're from North Carolina! Next time I'm writing Cam, I'm going to have to pick your brain (I pretend he's not from Kansas. That just makes no sense. )

[EvenstarSRV]

Yeah, that helps! Unfortunately we've already have much of the conversation in our long discussion of 'Bloodlines' - the aspect that deals with the nature of the Goa'uld symbiotes themselves. A slightly different aspect of that presents itself, though. That being that even withought the Goa'uld genetic memory that was kept from them by Egeria, they still display noticable arrogance and a willingness to excuse taking a host against their will, when 'necessary'. They also display a certain knowledge that this behavior which might be instinctual is wrong, and some of them seem to suffer from it less than others. I wonder if that's the influence of the hosts? It's also interesting to note that it is almost always the Goa'uld who speaks.

Hmm, but I don't see arrogance or believing the ends justify the means as necessarily Goa'uld-specific traits, but more traits that all sentient species are likely prone to (we see it in the Asgard, Ancients, and Ori followers for example). You also have humans like Kinsey who are as arrogant as they come, or people like Maybourne who definitely believed the ends justified the means, and there were no Goa'uld influences there (well until Full Alert for Kinsey).

I think the hosts definitely influence their symbiotes' behavior (and vice versa), especially Jacob since he's probably the first Tok'ra host who didn't grow up under Goa'uld subjugation. But if the host has arrogant or selfish tendencies, then he/she could potentially negatively influence their symbiote. Or vice versa and a Tok'ra like Selmak who could perhaps soften the rough edges of Jacob's character, influencing his personality positively.

You're from North Carolina! Next time I'm writing Cam, I'm going to have to pick your brain (I pretend he's not from Kansas. That just makes no sense. )

Yeah, I think it would have more sense to have Cam come out of Fayetteville, NC, growing up near Fort Bragg/Pope AFB. I did get a kick out of seeing Ben Browder wearing a UNC baseball jersey during an interview.

[amconway]

Hmm, but I don't see arrogance or believing the ends justify the means as necessarily Goa'uld-specific traits, but more traits that all sentient species are likely prone to. You have humans like Kinsey who are as arrogant as they come, or people like Maybourne who definitely believed the ends justified the means, and there were no Goa'uld influences there (well until Full Alert for Kinsey).

Oh, I agree that the Goa'uld /Tok'ra dont have a monopoly, but they have a... peculiarly Goa'uldy superiority that (in my opinion) comes from wearing other sentient beings like a suit of clothes.

So, vinegar based barbeque sauces... better than tomato based sauces?

[EvenstarSRV]

Oh, I agree that the Goa'uld /Tok'ra dont have a monopoly, but they have a... peculiarly Goa'uldy superiority that (in my opinion) comes from wearing other sentient beings like a suit of clothes.

I don't really see that kind of superiority as much different than the way the Urondans treated their enemy, or the Optricians treated theirs, or how the Ancients seem to treat 'lesser' lifeforms. In all cases, it seems to stem from a belief that they are inherently better or superior than the other, and that justifies taking their lives, whether by killing them or enslaving them.

IMO, the parasitic nature of Goa'uld is instinctual and not necessarily a cause of their arrogance. That comes from their intellect I think, which is more likely hindered by their physical form than helped by it, since they're very vulnerable in their unblended state.

So, vinegar based barbeque sauces... better than tomato based sauces?

Er...vegetarian here, so can't really help you there. But I can vouch that NC sweet tea is the best in the world.

[amconway]

I don't really see that kind of superiority as much different than the way the Urondans treated their enemy, or the Optricians treated theirs, or how the Ancients seem to treat 'lesser' lifeforms. In all cases, it seems to stem from a belief that they are inherently better or superior than the other, and that justifies taking their lives, whether by killing them or enslaving them.

Well, two of those are bad guys, and the other isn't all that good, so, yeah. They're bad. I still say the snakes are more creepy-bad.
EDIT: Hmmm... Not my best effort. I have to go sleep now.

I won't go further as to my belief that the Goa'uld are intrinsically evil. We've already gone there thoroughly.

That comes from their intellect I think, which is more likely hindered by their physical form than helped by it, since they're very vulnerable in their unblended state.

Could you say this another way? I'm not quite getting it.

[EvenstarSRV]

Could you say this another way? I'm not quite getting it.

Well, I feel that one common source of arrogance among sentient species is belief in having a superior intellect. We see it in the Tollan, the Tok'ra, Goa'uld, the Asgard to a degree, as well as the Ancients and at times humans (McKay being a prime example).

But compared to the other species, the symbiotes have the disadvantage in that they cannot make use of their intellect until they take a host. Until then they could be the smartest thing in the galaxy, but they can't do anything with that knowledge. So that dependence on hosts would, I think, make the Goa'uld slightly less arrogant than say the Tollan, because they need another species in order fully achieve their perceived superiority, they can't do it by themselves.

[The Stig]

An excellent conclusion to the two parter. One of my favourites in the entire series.

[rmonroe]

Maybe someone can help me figure this out because it's really beginning to bug me. I watched this episode again last night and as I pondered on the problem the Tok'ra have regarding finding hosts, the question came to mind, why don't they just have kids and put their symbiotes into them? I mean, the kids could still have a choice about it and maybe not all of them would choose to do it, but it would still help I think. Did I miss something that explains why this wouldn't be possible?

[Ulkesh47]

Maybe someone can help me figure this out because it's really beginning to bug me. I watched this episode again last night and as I pondered on the problem the Tok'ra have regarding finding hosts, the question came to mind, why don't they just have kids and put their symbiotes into them? I mean, the kids could still have a choice about it and maybe not all of them would choose to do it, but it would still help I think. Did I miss something that explains why this wouldn't be possible?

Hmm. That kid would be a Tok'ra Harcesis. Interesting point, but for all we know, a Harcesis can't be taken as a host. On the other hand, maybe s/he can, so it's hard to say.

[Gamira_The Goauld_Princess]

TokRa are great!!!!

[jsonitsac]

Hmm. That kid would be a Tok'ra Harcesis. Interesting point, but for all we know, a Harcesis can't be taken as a host. On the other hand, maybe s/he can, so it's hard to say.

If the kid were Harcesis then what would be the point of blending him or her? Also, they'd still have to wait 18 years for the child to grow up and I'm not sure that raising children is not necessarily a great idea while participating in an underground resistance movement.

[Tachyon]

The Tok'ra must be my all time favorite SG-1 two-parter.