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  1. #1
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    Default Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Okay, this is purely hypothetical, and only inadvertently related to sci-fi/Stargate, but here it goes.

    Let's say there's a haunted house, like the Amityville Horror house. In the house, there are evil spirits or demons, or whatever. It's creepy, it's scary, and it's clearly haunted.

    One day, for whatever reason, Anubis (in his cloak and weird event horizon mask), or Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, or Darth Vader enter the house alone. (could even apply to a Shadow or another powerful evil being from sci-fi).

    1) Do the evil spirits or demons or whatever they are recognize Anubis/Emperor/Vader as evil, and do they know better than trying to attack?

    2) Would the spirits be frightened of Anubis/Emperor/Vader?

    3) Would Anubis/Vader/Emperor/other evil powerful being be disturbed or frightened of the evil spirits/demons?

    I know these might be lame questions, but I guess I wanna know if evil recognizes other forms of evil and can evil be frightened of other evil? How does it work? Any thoughts?

    3)

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant puddlejumper747's Avatar
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    Post Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis
    I guess I wanna know if evil recognizes other forms of evil and can evil be frightened of other evil? How does it work?
    I'm going to try to avoid your examples and simply attempt to hit the main question here.
    It's complicated. True evil is almost always going to be self-absorbed and focused on the goal of simply gaining more power and control for itself. It's not really going to care that much about the other form of evil, unless it sees the other one as being more powerful. I guess I'll have to use an example: Darth Vader (who, as we know, is obviously not pure evil) recognizes the Emperor for being evil, but thinks that he could ultimately prove to be even more powerful if he could simply eliminate his master, and take his place. But pride blinds you to the truth. He might recognize the limitations and weaknesses of the (currently) greater evil, but refuses to see his own, and teh same continues until his own apprentice eventually moves in to take his place. And so the cycle continues -- each form of evil simply thinks that it is better, and defeats its opponent, only to ultimately become the very thing that it thought it would never become. And even then, it does not recognize the truth. Evil has no power of its own -- it can only corrupt a good in order to become more evil -- but eventually there's nothing left at all to corrupt, and the evil collapses upon itself. Heck, I guess I'll just answer all of your questions anyway:
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis
    1) Do the evil spirits or demons or whatever they are recognize Anubis/Emperor/Vader as evil, and do they know better than trying to attack?
    Yes, they would recognize each other as being evil. But they're not going to attack each other unless they feel confident and powerful enough to make that move, and attempt to bring the other evil under their own control.
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis
    2) Would the spirits be frightened of Anubis/Emperor/Vader?
    3) Would Anubis/Vader/Emperor/other evil powerful being be disturbed or frightened of the evil spirits/demons?
    Only if they recognize the other evil as being more powerful than themselves. If they fear losing their own power, they're going to play it safe and keep quiet until they see an opportunity to make a move. They don't want the "bigger evil" doesn't see them as some sort of weakness or threat that must be removed completely. They are selfish, and always want to gain more power for themselves if possible.

    So I hope that answers some of your questions. It mostly depends upon which form of evil is accepted by the others as being "more powerful". Now that I think about it, I suppose the Goa'uld System Lords themselves provide a decent example of how different evils tend to deal with each other. (Let me know if this helps!)
    There is only one thing we can ever truly control: whether we are good, or evil.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by puddlejumper747
    I'm going to try to avoid your examples and simply attempt to hit the main question here.
    It's complicated. True evil is almost always going to be self-absorbed and focused on the goal of simply gaining more power and control for itself. It's not really going to care that much about the other form of evil, unless it sees the other one as being more powerful. I guess I'll have to use an example: Darth Vader (who, as we know, is obviously not pure evil) recognizes the Emperor for being evil, but thinks that he could ultimately prove to be even more powerful if he could simply eliminate his master, and take his place. But pride blinds you to the truth. He might recognize the limitations and weaknesses of the (currently) greater evil, but refuses to see his own, and teh same continues until his own apprentice eventually moves in to take his place. And so the cycle continues -- each form of evil simply thinks that it is better, and defeats its opponent, only to ultimately become the very thing that it thought it would never become. And even then, it does not recognize the truth. Evil has no power of its own -- it can only corrupt a good in order to become more evil -- but eventually there's nothing left at all to corrupt, and the evil collapses upon itself. Heck, I guess I'll just answer all of your questions anyway:
    Yes, they would recognize each other as being evil. But they're not going to attack each other unless they feel confident and powerful enough to make that move, and attempt to bring the other evil under their own control.
    Only if they recognize the other evil as being more powerful than themselves. If they fear losing their own power, they're going to play it safe and keep quiet until they see an opportunity to make a move. They don't want the "bigger evil" doesn't see them as some sort of weakness or threat that must be removed completely. They are selfish, and always want to gain more power for themselves if possible.

    So I hope that answers some of your questions. It mostly depends upon which form of evil is accepted by the others as being "more powerful". Now that I think about it, I suppose the Goa'uld System Lords themselves provide a decent example of how different evils tend to deal with each other. (Let me know if this helps!)
    Thanks, PJ.

    I wish more people would reply to this...jeez...if it's not about ships, no one cares to respond.

  4. #4
    Lieutenant Colonel Blue Banrigh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    I'm not sure if this is going to answer your quetion, but what kind of evil?

    I mean, most evil people think they are doing good, it's just that they are classfied evil by other people. So would it be what the 'evil' person considered evil, or are you thinking more of like recognising like?

    If this is a reiteration of what PJ said, sorry but how they are affected depends on what their purpose is.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Banrigh
    I'm not sure if this is going to answer your quetion, but what kind of evil?

    I mean, most evil people think they are doing good, it's just that they are classfied evil by other people. So would it be what the 'evil' person considered evil, or are you thinking more of like recognising like?

    If this is a reiteration of what PJ said, sorry but how they are affected depends on what their purpose is.
    Well, I think you're making this more complicated than it is. I know my question is somewhat vague, but don't get hung up on what type of evil. It's just a generic question.

  6. #6
    Captain Darth Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    The problem is that evil is actually a name applied to a variety of phenomena a a grab bag.

    Evil spirts (see my caveat below) are simply vengeful and malign. They wish to do harm because of some wrong inflicted upon them. This is something I can relate to that on some days! If I'm an evil spirit who wishes to vent my rage, do I care if Darth Vader is power obsessed and also inflicts harm? I doubt it. If he can suffer, then he suits my purpose. Make him suffer.

    (I don't believe in evil spirits.. I'm one of those who thinks hauntings are the result of humans being exposed to strong magnetic fields.. just as I believe the "white tunnel" of near death is the same thing that high-G airplane maneuvers produce.. it's all in the brain)

    If I'm Darth Vader, do I identify with the evil spirits? No. If they are a means to an end I'll exploit them. If that means their destruction, so be it. My purpose is power and domination. Everything else is fodder.

    Bottom line, evil isn't an entity or an ideal in and of itself. It is a label we apply to certain motivations.

    But I do like the queston!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    <sigh>

    No one really is answering the questions posed. I was just curious what others thought. Yeah, I'm still obsessin' about Amityville Horror. After seeing the new movie, which is just okay, nothing that scary, I couldn't help but think. Let's assume the hause is haunted by the old witch dude from the 1600s and the ghosts of the murdered family. Let's assume the hause is haunted. What if something non-human entered the house. Would the spirits recognized something non-human, or would it assume it was human? What if that non-human was powerful and evil?

    Then, of course, my brain started spinning around in my skull and I thought, woah, what if Anubis in his semi-physical form entered the house and walked around a few minutes, and then the spirits tried to scare him or something. Would Anubis be scared? Would the demons know that he was not human and that he was more powerful than them? Would they know he was ascended?

    So, in my mind, here's what I saw: Anubis enters the house because in the basement there are buried scrolls or something. He enters the house and sees the ghostly hooded figure on the stairwell. The ghost-demon, in its evil, booming voice, screams "GET OUT!" Anubis stares back at it with his event horizon face. He ignores it and goes down the basement, passed the infamous red room. The figure appears again and says "LEAVE THIS PLACE NOW OR DIE!" Anubis responds, "That which is not alive cannot be killed." He raises his hands and uses his ascended lightning stuff and destroys the ghost/demon thingy, or scares the crap out of it.

    I know, I know...but still, wouldn't it be kinda cool? So, this is what I'm asking: Given your knowledge, and the character of your choice (Anubis, Emperor, Vader, etc.), what do you think would happen? Would the ghost understand what it was seeing? Would it fear? Would your character fear what it saw? Would the bleeding walls, fly swarms, ghostly noises, demonic voices, and other weird things have any affect on Anubis/Emperor/Vader?

    What do you think?

  8. #8
    Captain Darth Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Gee, and I was really impressed with the question about evil in and of itself.... but I guess that wasn't your angle.

    If I am finally getting your question, I have to ask in turn does it matter? Both sides will act in a matter consistent with their basic nature. Let's call your spirits side A, and your villains side B. If side A can make side B suffer, they will. If side B can use side A to further their ends, they will.

    If side A can't make side B suffer and realizes side B could damage them, they will retreat. If side A isn't bright enough to retreat under such circumstances, they won't retreat.

    If side B can destroy side A for such audacity, they will. If they can't, they won't.

    What is to understand here? Each will behave in a manner consistent with their motives, comprehension, and abilities. Period. There will be no evil fest, evil bonding, or some unholy alliance. They don't have common goals.

    Is your real question, "who will win"? Is it "wouldn't that be cool"?

    Please, if I'm missing some deeper question, clarify.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Buddha
    Gee, and I was really impressed with the question about evil in and of itself.... but I guess that wasn't your angle.

    If I am finally getting your question, I have to ask in turn does it matter? Both sides will act in a matter consistent with their basic nature. Let's call your spirits side A, and your villains side B. If side A can make side B suffer, they will. If side B can use side A to further their ends, they will.

    If side A can't make side B suffer and realizes side B could damage them, they will retreat. If side A isn't bright enough to retreat under such circumstances, they won't retreat.

    If side B can destroy side A for such audacity, they will. If they can't, they won't.

    What is to understand here? Each will behave in a manner consistent with their motives, comprehension, and abilities. Period. There will be no evil fest, evil bonding, or some unholy alliance. They don't have common goals.

    Is your real question, "who will win"? Is it "wouldn't that be cool"?

    Please, if I'm missing some deeper question, clarify.

    You always make me feel stupid dude. yeah, who would win? yeah, wouldn't it be cool? Sure, the deeper question about evil is part of it, and I think PJ747 did a great job addressing the nature of evil, but I still was curious about what others thought would happen if such a scenario took place. Sorry if it's a stupid question. Sometimes I'm like a little kid and get all geeked about something stupid like this. I didn't mean to be dumb, I just thought it would be cool to see if others thought like me.

  10. #10
    First Lieutenant shovar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    it depends what type of evil it was, for example the mummy returns, those little cannibal creatures were afraid of Imhotep as was Imhotep of the Scorpion king, evil is scared of evil, if that evil is more powerful than their evil!
    easy and simple answer!

  11. #11
    Captain Darth Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis

    You always make me feel stupid dude.
    NOT MY INTENT! I was assuming that I wasn't getting it, and just throwing out the fundamentals, because I was stumped.

    I had already given you my last green of the day for even asking the question... so stupid was NOT what I was thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis
    Sure, the deeper question about evil is part of it, and I think PJ747 did a great job addressing the nature of evil, but I still was curious about what others thought would happen if such a scenario took place. Sorry if it's a stupid question. Sometimes I'm like a little kid and get all geeked about something stupid like this. I didn't mean to be dumb, I just thought it would be cool to see if others thought like me.
    Not dumb per se... I just didn't get the question.

    Now, to consider the possibilities... do I think it would be cool to have Vader face something along the lines of the Magic Tree from The Empire Strikes Back? Sure. We might even see something like that.

    Do I think it would be cool for some Goa'uld, or Wraith, or bad guy of your choice run afoul of some half ascended badass like Anubis in a corporeal bad-guy meets non-corporeal bad-guy clash? Sure, that'd be fine too. If you throw it in as a means by which the good guys win against impossible odds yet again by having them sucker corporeal bad-guy into a fight for his life/to escape from non-corporeal bad-guy, then sure, that would not only be cool, it might be a very clever way to end a prolonged ark without being cheesy.. and Stargate has had enough "cheese" already!

    Just because I ask pointed questions doesn't mean I think you are stupid. It means I ask pointed questions because I like to get to the core of the matter. From the "wouldn't it be cool" standpoint.. well, yes, it would be cool!

    Who would win? I have no idea whatsoever.. but never underestimate the power of the Dark Side!
    Last edited by Darth Buddha; April 18th, 2005 at 02:46 PM.

  12. #12
    First Lieutenant puddlejumper747's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Banrigh
    I mean, most evil people think they are doing good, it's just that they are classfied evil by other people.
    Ummm....no. You're almost giving them too much credit, because most evil people don't even think like that. All they care about is if they are pleasing themselves. No focus whatsoever on others unless it suddenly becomes convenient. To them, there is no ojective morality, no absolute truth, no need for terms such as "good" or "evil", only what they want, when they want it. They are usually very selfish and self-centered, and don't understand how anyone else could even consider to do otherwise. It's quite a sad situation, really.
    There is only one thing we can ever truly control: whether we are good, or evil.

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  13. #13
    Captain Darth Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by puddlejumper747
    Ummm....no. You're almost giving them too much credit, because most evil people don't even think like that. All they care about is if they are pleasing themselves.
    Really? You think Hitler didn't think he was saving the Aryan race from the undermensch? Hell, he thought he was a divinely inspired savior... so I'd say he'd definitely describe his actions as good, heroic, and necessary.

    Vader feels he is bringing ORDER to the galaxy.

    The Cylons feel they are exterminating the dangerous and evil humans.

    The list goes on...

    No focus whatsoever on others unless it suddenly becomes convenient. To them, there is no ojective morality, no absolute truth, no need for terms such as "good" or "evil", only what they want, when they want it. They are usually very selfish and self-centered, and don't understand how anyone else could even consider to do otherwise. It's quite a sad situation, really.
    Selfish is evil, that's true. Though your description sounds to me more like the CEO of almost every corporation in the U.S. today than Adolf Hitler. Profit is God, and you do everything and anything you can legally get away with (or illegally get away with) in order to pursue it.

    So I'd agree with your description of AN evil, but I don't think your definition is exhuastive.

  14. #14
    First Lieutenant puddlejumper747's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Buddha
    So I'd agree with your description of AN evil, but I don't think your definition is exhuastive.
    I think I see your point. But the other thing I think we have to remember here is that no healthy rational human beings alive on this earth are truly going be pure evil. Misinformed and mentally unstable people might still do evil actions without necessarily understanding exactly what it is that they are doing, but true evil requires a little bit more of an informed and free will rejection of the good. And that's where the whole selfish/pride part comes into play. Darth Vader was essentially lied to, corrupted, and used by someone who he had originally trusted to help him. And I believe Hitler had some of his own mental/sanity issues, yes? But no matter how evil they are, there's still always going to be that little part of them that can turn around and repent at the last minute if they really want to, such as we saw of Vader. It's just going to be much harder. And now I'm getting off topic, so I'll shut up.
    There is only one thing we can ever truly control: whether we are good, or evil.

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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by puddlejumper747
    I think I see your point. But the other thing I think we have to remember here is that no healthy rational human beings alive on this earth are truly going be pure evil. Misinformed and mentally unstable people might still do evil actions without necessarily understanding exactly what it is that they are doing, but true evil requires a little bit more of an informed and free will rejection of the good. And that's where the whole selfish/pride part comes into play. Darth Vader was essentially lied to, corrupted, and used by someone who he had originally trusted to help him. And I believe Hitler had some of his own mental/sanity issues, yes? But no matter how evil they are, there's still always going to be that little part of them that can turn around and repent at the last minute if they really want to, such as we saw of Vader. It's just going to be much harder. And now I'm getting off topic, so I'll shut up.
    The truth is, like good, evil can be pure and absolute. One need not reject good to be evil, for evil can exist on its own without any connection to good. A black hole, if you will, devoid of good. Occasionally, evil just happens like this. This is known as the "bad seed". Darth Vader was never purely evil, you're right. He started out good and became corrupted by Palpatine. In the end, he redeemed himself by destroying the Emperor.

    However, can we extrapolate and impute Darth Vader's good origins to the Emperor? I don't think so. Unlike Vader, Darth Sidious, IMO, appears to have started out evil; he was a "bad seed" if you will. He was never corrupted; he was the corrupter. Poor Anakin was naieve and angry; he never meant to hurt anyone, whereas Darth Sidious/Palpatine started off with evil intentions and saw his plan through to the very end.

    The same with Anubis. Anubis' "grand design", as he announced in "Threads", was to destroy all life in the galaxy to replace it with life as he saw fit. Presumably, his grand design was nothing new and he had these plans for quite some time. I would say Anubis, unlike Yu and Ba'al and even Ra, was pure evil. Ra, Ba'al, and Apophis, and the system lords, were just greedy and power hungry; they were not pure evil like Anubis.

    Hitler? It's hard to say. He started off in life as a "normal" human being, but somewhere, along the path, he strayed into the dark forrest and the rest is history. We can either choose to stay on the path, even if it leads nowhere, and remain good or neutral, or we can leave the path and stray into the darkness, which can lead anywhere.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by puddlejumper747
    I think I see your point. But the other thing I think we have to remember here is that no healthy rational human beings alive on this earth are truly going be pure evil. Misinformed and mentally unstable people might still do evil actions without necessarily understanding exactly what it is that they are doing, but true evil requires a little bit more of an informed and free will rejection of the good. And that's where the whole selfish/pride part comes into play. Darth Vader was essentially lied to, corrupted, and used by someone who he had originally trusted to help him. And I believe Hitler had some of his own mental/sanity issues, yes? But no matter how evil they are, there's still always going to be that little part of them that can turn around and repent at the last minute if they really want to, such as we saw of Vader. It's just going to be much harder. And now I'm getting off topic, so I'll shut up.
    Also, to excuse evil as "insanity" or "mental illness" is to dismiss its power. Evil may manifest itself to others as "deviance", but in fact, evil is...just evil. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, the Son of Sam, the Boston Strangler...these were people who acted as agents of evil. Mental disease or defect? Sure, there's no doubt, but can we simply dismiss their actions as psychopathology? I think evil likes to hide (check my sig!!!) and disguise itself. We can call it mental illness, but no matter what label you put on it, it's still evil.

  17. #17
    Lieutenant Colonel Osiris-RA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    I think it depends on the type of evil. Now, Anubis/Emperor/Darth are pretty bad - but not Darth really IMO so I'll count him out. I'm not familiar with the Emperor so ... I can't say much on that either. Anubis, however is like the epitome of evil. Super Duper Uber Baddie. The little evil spirits may be capable of seriously freaking out earthlings and invading their bodies, controlling their minds, etc, but they can't, for instance, say, take over the universe as Anubis/Emperor/Darth are out to do. Their's is a mental evil. The Spirits, however, not being aliens but rather supernatural beings, often are capable of being forced out simply by a few incantations, Dzikers or Hail Mary's or whatever. They're not 'aliens' in a sense but creatures who have a certain power over the supernatural world. In other words, Anubis/Emperor/Darth may be powerful in controlling spaceships and mind things, but in the end, the supernatural world would win. Anubis etc can control - to an extent - the material, physical world, but the Spirits have control of the supernatural world, and methinks Supernatural world beats material world anytime.

    ...But who's to say Anubis isn't an evil spirit incarnated. Pehaps his body has been captured by a demon - or perhaps goa'ulds are born with an evil spirit in them.

    Does anything i said make sense?

  18. #18
    Captain Darth Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Can anyone cite a real life example of Darth Vader evil or Palaptine evil?

    I'm not being a nit... I just can't think of one... and that bothers me.

  19. #19
    Lieutenant Colonel Osiris-RA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Darth wasn't evil. He was just ...confused. World power or Intolerable coolness. How can one choose??

    *cough* secretly admires him *cough*

  20. #20
    First Lieutenant puddlejumper747's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAnubis
    Also, to excuse evil as "insanity" or "mental illness" is to dismiss its power. We can call it mental illness, but no matter what label you put on it, it's still evil.
    Yes! Please don't misunderstand me! I completely agree with what you're saying. I'm not excusing the evil as "insanity" or "mental illness"....obviously, it's still evil no matter how you look at it. But it might lessen the actual guilt of the person commiting those evil actions....if they really are mentally unstable or insane. It's still evil, but the "evilness" action itself might not necessarily correspond perfectly with the "evilness" of the person doing so. If some evil person was insane, then he might not have honestly understood what he was doing, and therefore he might not be fully responsible for choosing to do them....but it certainly doesn't make his actions any less evil. You're definitely right. So does that make any more sense now, or did I just make it worse?
    There is only one thing we can ever truly control: whether we are good, or evil.

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