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    the whole perry/rush subplot didn't even need to be in this episode. none of it. in fact, none of the B-plot needed to be in it. the only function it served to the main plot was to bail the writers out of a potentially compelling conversation between rush and mckay by giving rush an "out." that's lame. everyone would love to see what the dynamic of rush and mckay would be like. but no, that's too good.

    i get that rush and his "mandy" need to have that special moment where perry's dream comes true, but it should have been addressed in a different episode (or given that the show is ending, perhpas not at all) and the entire hour should have been dedicated to the main plot with the Langarans.

    also, did anyone else think that Perry was starting to get psycho attached? by the end she was annoying the crap out of me because she was so clingy in this "i need to spend every waking second with you, rush" kind of way. and the whole premise of her program simulation was predicated on the abstract notion of "love"? to test rush? then accuse him of not loving her when he so clearly cares deeply for her? Perry's manufactured pitty party -- it was really immature and super annoying.

    all the potentially great developments that could have happened in this episode were ignored. it seems like the writers are afraid to advance the story. every time the door opens and an interesting avenue is introduced the writers slam the door shut. when there's good news or something remotely promising comes along that can bring new dynamic to the show, i've learned to expect it's too good to be true and it will never be.

    as a viewer, i'm often motivated to imagine the possibilities of where the story can go, but the writers seem to want to keep plugging the passageways that can lead to so much more.

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      I'll need a rewatch of the episode but it had an 'unfinished' feel to it that is making me feel restless. As usual, I'm going to blame Telford
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        Originally posted by Airlock View Post
        the whole perry/rush subplot didn't even need to be in this episode. none of it. in fact, none of the B-plot needed to be in it. the only function it served to the main plot was to bail the writers out of a potentially compelling conversation between rush and mckay by giving rush an "out." that's lame. everyone would love to see what the dynamic of rush and mckay would be like. but no, that's too good.

        i get that rush and his "mandy" need to have that special moment where perry's dream comes true, but it should have been addressed in a different episode (or given that the show is ending, perhpas not at all) and the entire hour should have been dedicated to the main plot with the Langarans.

        also, did anyone else think that Perry was starting to get psycho attached? by the end she was annoying the crap out of me because she was so clingy in this "i need to spend every waking second with you, rush" kind of way. and the whole premise of her program simulation was predicated on the abstract notion of "love"? to test rush? then accuse him of not loving her when he so clearly cares deeply for her? Perry's manufactured pitty party -- it was really immature and super annoying.

        all the potentially great developments that could have happened in this episode were ignored. it seems like the writers are afraid to advance the story. every time the door opens and an interesting avenue is introduced the writers slam the door shut. when there's good news or something remotely promising comes along that can bring new dynamic to the show, i've learned to expect it's too good to be true and it will never be.

        as a viewer, i'm often motivated to imagine the possibilities of where the story can go, but the writers seem to want to keep plugging the passageways that can lead to so much more.
        To be fair, that kind of thing is pretty endemic in all of stargate, not just SGU.
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          ^^^yeah, but the structure of the show isn't episodic like SG-1 and Atlantis where there is a broader story arch that gets woven in and out of the series. SGU is serial or continual. So when writers take the cheap way out or make shortcuts it has a much greater effect because it influences the episodes that follow and it can be a kind of domino effect for better or worse -- worse in this case because the writers get themselves out of their mess by creating plot conveniences that just aren't believable -- they're too obviously compensating for their own shortcuts.

          in any case, i still love SGU -- which is why i'm pretty critical of it. the last 3 episodes had me disappointed on a number of fronts. mainly the last two episodes.

          next week should be fun because they finally get off world and it's not through a consciousness transfer or use of the stones

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            Originally posted by Airlock View Post
            also, did anyone else think that Perry was starting to get psycho attached? by the end she was annoying the crap out of me because she was so clingy in this "i need to spend every waking second with you, rush" kind of way. and the whole premise of her program simulation was predicated on the abstract notion of "love"? to test rush? then accuse him of not loving her when he so clearly cares deeply for her? Perry's manufactured pitty party -- it was really immature and super annoying.
            Most definitely.. BUT then again, she was in a wheel chair for how long?? And has been without anyone showing her affection. Which now rush is doing big time.
            I think any woman in that situation would get "klingy"

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              ^^^ most likely, but she had this weird undertone. she was darker and controlling. the way she manipulated rush and lied about the programming mistake, the way she suppressed Ginn, her passive aggressive behavior disguised in a playful innocence, and all the little seductive eye gazes, constantly latching on to him -- distracting him -- pacifying him, it's like she was almost toying with him in this kinda psychotic way. Her motives seemed somewhat suspect and born out of some kind of deep insecurity (handicapped or not). that's the way it came off to me.
              Last edited by Airlock; April 7, 2011, 05:57 PM.

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                Amanda pretty much said it herself. She had feelings for him since she was very young. Now that he seemed to feel the same, she became almost obsessed with him. She didn't want to let him go.
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                  What bugs me to about this ep.... The fact that used McKay and Woolsey didn't add anything special to it. They could have just as well saved Senator Micheals and Dr Cavel and used them. Hell, probably would have made for a better arch/sub-plot as well.

                  (Or maybe Zelenka, would have been nice to see him step out of McKay's shadow for once. Radek is cool.)
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                  SGU Continued....

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                    Originally posted by json
                    It was a decent episode. I like that it didn't make a big deal of McKay being in the episode and blended him in quite well. The scene with him and Eli was great. I'm wondering if the "sub plot" may have been more important, in the long run, than the story involving the Langarans.
                    This was my feeling on it, since the way it links to the Langaran plot all boils down to Mckay's solution and whether it really would have worked. All due respect to Earth's best and brightest, but the only people who were qualified to check Mckay's work were Eli and Rush. While Eli's go ahead was important from a theoretical point of view, the omission of Rush's insight I think would be a critical point later since Rush proves that while he may not be the best at the math, he has an incredible ability to spot catastrophes before they happen. Unfortunately he is so good at that that he ends up being blamed for said catastrophes if they are allowed to happen.

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                      Seizure Review [SGU 216]
                      By xxxevilgrinxxx | Published: April 8, 2011

                      There’s an unfinished quality to “Seizure”that was initially difficult to get past and required a re-watch in order to pick out elements. In what has become a Stargate Universe staple, the title “Seizure” points to multiple storylines within the episode: the seizure of the Langaran gate complex, but also Amanda Perry’s seizure of both Rush and Ginn, and even Eli’s seizure and quarantine of Perry and Ginn by the end of the episode.

                      What is less clear in this episode is which storyline takes precedence. There doesn’t appear to be an “A” story and a “B” story. Further, none of the storylines appears to feel “finished”. In and of itself, this isn’t an insurmountable problem in that many SGU episodes have themes that carry on in other episodes but where it becomes a problem here is that usually at least one of these storylines appears to be resolved by the end, and this doesn’t seem to be the case here. The story appears to be heading towards a grand reveal, something the season will likely end on, but it still makes for an underlying feeling of something being missing.

                      Despite all of this, “Seizure” does bring out some wonderful points that will hopefully play out in the few episodes that remain.

                      Coming on the heels of “Hope”, where Perry and Ginn were uploaded into the Destiny‘s databanks, I had wondered about the possibilities of others of the crew similarly uploading themselves into the ship. In “Seizure” we find that it’s possible but that it’s not without risk. With Franklin, possibly Gloria, Perry and Ginn, there was either no body, or nothing left of the body to come back to. The consciousness exists in only one place – in Destiny. The scenario with Rush is possibly more dangerous, with his consciousness moving between the ship and back to his body. Eli is right to be concerned about this and I find it interesting that the warning comes from Ginn, despite the fact that both Eli and Ginn would love to be with each other physically.

                      From this episode we receive no hints that Rush has experienced any real ill-effects from this procedure. But there must always be consequences however and one of them is likely to be that Rush will look at Perry’s actions and motivations – and possibly even Perry herself – a little differently. Even with the best of intentions, Perry essentially toyed with Rush to suit herself. What could she do with even more power, something that is a likely outcome of her continued stay as a part of Destiny. At what point is she no longer Perry and something else? Her desire may not have begun that way but how easily could it change? Perhaps people were never meant to have that sort of power, at least not this early in our development.

                      Several times, the ship has interacted with the crew members using simulations but it is notable that Perry specifically uses the “no win scenario” by which the ship tested Young. Of all the possible scenarios, why did Perry use this one? Was it simply the one that she had access to and could amend to suit her needs or was there a deeper purpose? Could it be that we are meant to see that remaining in a corporeal form and existing within the database is a no win scenario, that the crew must choose one or the other, that they can’t have both? In any case, with the help of Eli and Ginn, Rush learns that he has to go outside of the parameters, to go outside of the system and away from Perry, in order to extricate himself from the simulation.

                      That Rush finds a way to re-enter his own body doesn’t come as a surprise to me, but what it says about the maturity of the characters does. Between Rush and Eli, it is supposed to be Rush that is the more mature of the two but, despite the fact that it is Eli and Ginn – the kids – who theorize about the ability to exist in the database, it is Rush that recklessly makes a move and sits in the chair, putting himself at risk and possible more. It is Eli that behaves like the mature adult here. That he clearly wants to be with Ginn goes without saying but he isn’t willing to risk the sort of danger Rush faced, at least not without further study.

                      It would be impossible to talk about this episode without talking about the appearance of Rodney McKay. While I don’t agree that McKay made a good fit aboard the Destiny, or even on an SGU episode, he did serve to once again point out that the plans of Earth tend to serve Earth, to the detriment of the Destiny.

                      Although Eli has been painted in previous episodes as occasionally childish, he can be forgiven in the fact that he is, in reality, still a child. McKay on the other hand is clearly an adult and it is painfully obvious that he has some trouble in behaving like one. Telford rightly makes the call, stating that it’s a lack of social skills, but I believe the problem runs much deeper. While on Destiny, Eli’s childish behaviour has been corrected, while in McKay, it is tolerated. Excuses are made for him due to his intelligence, that would never be tolerated in another.

                      That Young doesn’t think much of McKay is quite clear and it pleased me greatly to have Young declare that McKay’s plan would only go forward when Eli signed off on it. McKay’s one saving grace is that SGU has apparently affected how he was written, at least in the end. In stating, and accepting without an hysterical outburst, that the plan was a failure and shutting down the gate, I have gained a measure of respect for this McKay.

                      This is another of those episodes that hinges on the possible motivations of one man: Telford. In “Seizure” we see yet another attempt in an increasingly long line of attempts to reach Destiny with force, where Telford plays a central role. These efforts show a man increasingly desperate to get back aboard the ship with a team of his choosing. If this episode is anything to go by, he is willing to do so by any means necessary, but has he possibly begun to overplay his hand?

                      The Langarans have been courted by the Lucian Alliance, who continue to offer ever greater rewards for use of their gate in order to reach the Destiny. We learn that the Langarans have also rebuffed each offer, citing each time that they won’t endanger their alliance with Earth. And yet, we are offered the intelligence from spy satellites secretly listening in on Langara that they are in contact with the Alliance. No one else appears to have seen this intelligence. We also learn that on that very day, O’Neill has signed off on the operation, but we don’t hear from him personally. From whom do we learn about these developments? From Telford, a man who seems very willing to sell the others on the idea that the Langarans have already sold out to the Lucian Alliance in order to get access to the gate to dial Destiny.

                      Using the threat that the Lucian Alliance may seize the gate and dial the Destiny in order to do that very same thing themselves doesn’t make that much sense to me. The Langaran’s final action to disconnect the gate would appear to make for a far better way to circumvent the Lucian Alliance. No, in using his own set of social skills and the ability to use the right people, Telford appears to have set this plan in motion in order to not only get himself back in charge of the mission but to possibly take the Lucian Alliance with him. Telford’s offer to McKay appears to be an attempt to put a more tractable scientist in place of Rush, who Telford has little ability to control.

                      The plan only makes sense when you consider that Telford is at the very least working with the Alliance, if the connection hasn’t grown much deeper than that. Wouldn’t it be something if Telford, after the death of Kiva, was now the next to lead the Alliance? That would make for one hell of a twist. Will future episodes bring this out? Only time will tell and I fear we may not have time to see that play out to its end.

                      On a last note, when Young was declaring that the Lucian Alliance would not be allowed to succeed, he didn’t say that the Alliance wouldn’t be allowed to take “the ship”, or that they wouldn’t be allowed to harm the crew. He didn’t even mention that they wouldn’t be allowed to take “the” Destiny. Instead, he stated that the Alliance would not be allowed to take “Destiny”. It’s just one small word but to Young, the ship has clearly become far more than just a place, a setting, and become something more. A character in her own right that he will defend at all costs.

                      Rating: 7/10
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                        I liked the episode too. We had some better ones, but it was still pretty good.

                        Originally posted by morrismike View Post
                        If must have killed Eli to have to quarantine Ginn to protect the crew from Mandy.
                        This is one point I did not understand: why did he _have_to_ quarantine Ginn ?
                        The trouble was caused by Mandy alone, in fact Ginn was fighting her to get to Eli and break the simulation. She also refused to try the upload with Eli who suggested the same to her. So I do not see any moral need to put Ginn into a "virtual jail" for Mandy's actions. I also do not see any technical reason. They are two separate entities and the crew has seen the two separate consciousness in the system in the previous episode. So they should not be linked in any way.

                        So did I miss some key line of dialog or something that explains why Ginn had to be locked away too ?
                        Please, enlighten me!

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                          Originally posted by zsozso View Post
                          I liked the episode too. We had some better ones, but it was still pretty good.



                          This is one point I did not understand: why did he _have_to_ quarantine Ginn ?
                          The trouble was caused by Mandy alone, in fact Ginn was fighting her to get to Eli and break the simulation. She also refused to try the upload with Eli who suggested the same to her. So I do not see any moral need to put Ginn into a "virtual jail" for Mandy's actions. I also do not see any technical reason. They are two separate entities and the crew has seen the two separate consciousness in the system in the previous episode. So they should not be linked in any way.

                          So did I miss some key line of dialog or something that explains why Ginn had to be locked away too ?
                          Please, enlighten me!
                          Yes, you're absolute right, it was only Perry's fault, who caused all the trouble. Ginn was much more careful to use Destiny's computer system to share time with Eli, what he surely wouldn'd have denied, as Rush didn't. People tend to quitt thinking, when love is involved.

                          Well, for some resaons the writers decided, that since both consciousnesses entered Destiny at the same time, on the same way, they are somehow connected, and if you want to quarantine one of them, you've to take the other one with it. I don't remember that we got a concrete explantation in the episode other than that.
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                            Originally posted by blackluster View Post
                            he has an incredible ability to spot catastrophes before they happen. Unfortunately he is so good at that that he ends up being blamed for said catastrophes if they are allowed to happen.
                            It is sad, that he seems to see the bad things that could arise, but gets blamed when they do come about.

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                              Originally posted by zsozso View Post

                              This is one point I did not understand: why did he _have_to_ quarantine Ginn ?
                              The trouble was caused by Mandy alone, in fact Ginn was fighting her to get to Eli and break the simulation. She also refused to try the upload with Eli who suggested the same to her. So I do not see any moral need to put Ginn into a "virtual jail" for Mandy's actions. I also do not see any technical reason. They are two separate entities and the crew has seen the two separate consciousness in the system in the previous episode. So they should not be linked in any way.

                              So did I miss some key line of dialog or something that explains why Ginn had to be locked away too ?
                              Please, enlighten me!
                              I also didn't see a clear reason for Ginn to be exiled. I honestly believe that it was yet another lame plot device used by the writers to get rid of characters that would otherwise naturally be in following episodes. I mean, if Perry and Ginn were here to stay, they would most likely be reappearing in the remaining episodes. They are both scientists able to problem solve and uncover more of the Destiny and they are both significant love interests of the two (arguably) most important characters: Eli and Rush. For some reason or another the writers needed to get rid of them and I can't think of a good reason why other than they simply don't want them to play any role in the dynamic of the remaining episodes -- or at the very least the next one.

                              Perry and Ginn were killed physically in Malice, brought back for Hope via consciousness upload, then tucked away again in Seizure. I don't really get it. The two of them have potentially a lot to offer the crew and open lots of storytelling possibilities. But my fear is that it's precisely because they open such great storytelling possibilities that they're not going to be allowed to surface for long -- as evidenced by their questionably swift removal in Seizure. They couldn't even be allowed to last for longer than a half of an episode before getting the boot. I wish the writers would just stick to something and go with it.

                              There wasn't any closure after their quarantine which leads me to believe that they're going to resurface again, which would be just silly because that would mean they're dead, brought back, quarantined, then brought back again just so they can appear only when it is convenient or relevant to the main plot in whichever episode the writers need them. That sort of thing is common in television, but it starts to get silly when it continues after the characters have already been brought back from the dead.

                              Having the two of them uploaded to Destiny is a major development in "Destiny" as a character. Through Perry and Ginn we can learn so much more about the ship and perhaps the mission. As programs they can help the crew in so many ways. It's just a shame that they're not allowed to stick around for longer than two seconds. When Perry assisted TJ with the kidney transplant in Hope -- that is a prime example of the benefit of having her around. Ginn, although she hasn't yet been given an opportunity to shine as a program within Destiny would also (I'm sure) be an incredible asset if for the very least to raise Eli's morale by providing him with her (virtual) presence in addition to more knowledge and resources of the Destiny.

                              Maybe the writers feel that having Perry and Ginn aboard offers too much of an advantage to the crew -- in such a way that the two of them would be relied on perhaps a little too heavily to get the crew out of binds. But it still doesn't excuse the manner in which the writers are using the characters -- and it would be up to them to achieve the right balance.

                              I don't know... something tells me Perry and Ginn are coming back. Some way somehow, they're coming back. I don't necessarily require it as a viewer -- I'm not that attached to either character, but the way Seizure ended leaves a giant question-mark on Perry and Ginn. The writers will probably answer that question in some unsatisfactory way.
                              Last edited by Airlock; April 8, 2011, 03:53 PM.

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                                I have to say that I am extremely happy with this episode. Despite that being the minority view around here.

                                I loved Ginn and Amanda coming back but it is clear that Destiny and the two AI's are just not ready for their new found responsibility. It is a scary thought of a human's mind free from societal boundaries or even physical boundaries, that it was extremely dangerous for Rush to be with Amanda whilst she was calling all the shots. It really is the stuff of sci fi horror.

                                I imagine that whilst Ginn was the level headed one, that soon enough the circumstances of her digital imprisonment would have had her attempt to play out. So until the crew can find a way of letting the AIs coexist peacefully without having too much control over Destiny, it is safer having them quarantined. I just hope that quarantine doesn't mean Ginn, Franklin and Amanda pissing each other off for eternity

                                I'm actually glad SGU went to that level, than just having both Amanda and Ginn be happy go lucky AIs that do no wrong and perfectly fine where they are (aside from some existential angst of course).

                                And with the Langaran plot, I honestly don't care much for a throwaway line that details the fate of Jonas or the Atlantis expedition. A Jonas cameo would have been ok, maybe him popping his head out a window and asking how the weather back on Earth is but I'm not losing much sleep.

                                Besides knowing that McKay and Woolsey have readjusted back on Earth is all I really need to know. Afterall it has been some time since Atlantis landed on Earth, so I rather the gaps be filled in through Atlantis channels than have too much responsibility placed on a SGU episode.

                                But anyways, real cool use of the stones. I was actually quite shocked at how ingenious it was. And I love that they have proved that the connection to Destiny can work safely but didn't take it to the point where Destiny's whole isolation plot point be undone in one episode.

                                I'm also kinda loving the way our heroes are becoming the things they once stood against. It's how it always happens. How Vietnam 'hippies' end up being the sort of thing they once protested against. Or how the Obama administration still keeps Guantanamo open. Once you get into a position of power, somethings change.

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