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    Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
    Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.
    But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

    1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
    2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

    I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.

    Comment


      Originally posted by PG15 View Post
      ...
      Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.
      As are most of the rest of the crew. Everyone is out of their element.

      Originally posted by PG15 View Post
      But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

      1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
      2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

      I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.
      I'm going with 2, that he had the plan in mind and changed it when he saw what he thought was Rush come through the gate. That's not fundamentally stupid, it's fundamentally decent.
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        Originally posted by Sami_ View Post
        Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

        It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.
        There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

        And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.

        Originally posted by PG15 View Post
        But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

        1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
        2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).
        What did you think I said before? Because from my view, I haven't deviated much. At most, tried to explain things from another angle.

        What it looks like to me, is #1, which is what I call BS on. Young should have assumed that any hostile force would come through the gate fully armed, because that's what he would do, that's what he was trained to do, and thus what he should expect them to do. Part of a solider's arsenal is explosives; to assume that an enemy wouldn't come through with explosives is sheer stupidity. Or given that it's the LA use a vast mix of tech, they could have come through with staff weapons which might have been able to breach the doors.

        The point is he should have assumed they'd come through with enough weaponry.

        If they didn't, then good; we got lucky. But a military commander should always assume the worst and plan accordingly; he should be putting himself in the enemy's position to think about what tactics would be effective. And he knows that Telford has given them intel on Destiny, so it's highly likely they would have been prepared for locked doors.

        But yeah, I tossed JM's explanation a long time ago. Maybe that's what they intended, but how it came out in the show was different. Sorta similar to the Chloe-kidnapped-by-aliens thing.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
          There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

          And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.
          I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.

          Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.

          As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.
          Last edited by Sami_; 06 July 2010, 04:16 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
            I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.

            Amen
            I don't expect Young to be 'all heroey' but I do expect competence. A reliance on an overly emotional temper does not replace competence in a military commander.

            Comment


              I agree with Young's decision not to vent the air out of the gate room when he saw that Telford (or Rush depending on who Young thought was in control of Telford's body when he came through the gate). I was kinda surprised in the episode when Jack was telling Young he should have followed the original plan to stop the incursion. I couldn't see any leader sacrificing a valued member of their team if they believed other options were available.

              That being said, the fact that Young seems to have difficulty controlling his emotions in stressful situations is a problem. I liked Young at the beginning of the show, but I've been liking him a lot less since he stranded Rush on that planet. Regardless of the fact that Rush framed him for murder, abandoning him on a planet in the middle of nowhere was not the way to handle things. I don't really know what the ideal way to handle a situation like that would be, but Young's reaction was a little too extreme. The in this episode he starts freaking out and yelling at the scientists when they are trying to figure out how to deal with the problem of the ship being hit by gamma radiation. I understand that it's an extremely stressful situation, but in the middle of something like that the military leader should try to remain a bit calmer. Another thing that bothered me was that Young was checking in with Jack in the middle of the incursion. In my opinion, when your ship is being taken over it's a little late to call home for advice on how to deal with things. That is another thing that makes me doubt Young's ability to be an effective leader.
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                Originally posted by Sami_ View Post
                I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.
                Assuming the risk is small is still stupid. As is relying on people covering the doors, because he also had NO idea how many LA people would come through. What if 200+ had come through? That's enough to throw bodies at the corridors until you get through.

                Stupid.

                Or what if they had flashbangs or Goa'uld grenades that could easily take out the people in the corridor? Oh wait, that they had the former and that's exactly what happen. Relying on that is.. what's the word?

                Stupid.

                Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?

                Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.
                Wrong. JM told us that Young made his decisions because he thought he would lose nothing. That's as close to thinking your position is impenetrable as you're going to get. And if you want to say that JM is wrong, then you have to accept that Young's actions were wrong. It's a shaky position to be in.

                Here's how a trained commander would lay things out:

                "Okay, chances are good we have enemy coming. Locking the doors and preparing to vent the atmosphere is good. We can't delay too long in doing that, though, because we have to assume they are coming in heavily armed, and will blow the doors as soon as they can, which negates my plan; after all, that's what I would do if I were in the enemy commander's position. So waiting is suicide and monumentally stupid. I can probably delay only a minute from when they start coming in. I'll have people int he hallways outside, but if they blow the doors and have more men than us, or stuff like flashbangs or goa'uld grenades, they won't be able to hold long. Best nip this in the bud ASAP."

                LA starts coming through, and they see Telford.

                "Uh oh, if I do it now, I could end up killing Rush and Telford. I'll take 30 seconds to disconnect the stones and then vent the atmosphere, that way only Telford is at risk. We should be able to revive him after, but he's a soldier, and if he is back to normal, he'll understand. The life of 1 soldier vs. the lives of everyone on this ship, soldier and civilian."

                As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.
                You're seriously going to argue that the Goa'uld weren't arrogant about their power? I mean, I can pull up examples starting from the end of season 1, where Apophis attacked Earth with two ships. Hell, even Apophis planned to use Sokar's arrogance against him. I don't think this is an argument you really want to make when it was pointed out many times in the show by the characters themselves, about how arrogant the Goa'uld were.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                  Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?
                  I think it's more likely that he used to be competent rather than having someone in a powerful position giving him a free pass. In previous episodes, we've heard comments like Jack saying that Young was his choice for expedition leader but Young said no, his heart wasn't in it (or somesuch). Then Rush said Young didn't want to make the hard decisions. Pure speculation but perhaps something happened to make him psychologically crumble, as the thread title states. Presumably he passed whatever last psych eval he had - if he had one - but certainly, he's not fit for command now.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                    Assuming the risk is small is still stupid. As is relying on people covering the doors, because he also had NO idea how many LA people would come through. What if 200+ had come through? That's enough to throw bodies at the corridors until you get through.

                    Stupid.

                    Or what if they had flashbangs or Goa'uld grenades that could easily take out the people in the corridor? Oh wait, that they had the former and that's exactly what happen. Relying on that is.. what's the word?

                    Stupid.

                    Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?



                    Wrong. JM told us that Young made his decisions because he thought he would lose nothing. That's as close to thinking your position is impenetrable as you're going to get. And if you want to say that JM is wrong, then you have to accept that Young's actions were wrong. It's a shaky position to be in.

                    Here's how a trained commander would lay things out:

                    "Okay, chances are good we have enemy coming. Locking the doors and preparing to vent the atmosphere is good. We can't delay too long in doing that, though, because we have to assume they are coming in heavily armed, and will blow the doors as soon as they can, which negates my plan; after all, that's what I would do if I were in the enemy commander's position. So waiting is suicide and monumentally stupid. I can probably delay only a minute from when they start coming in. I'll have people int he hallways outside, but if they blow the doors and have more men than us, or stuff like flashbangs or goa'uld grenades, they won't be able to hold long. Best nip this in the bud ASAP."

                    LA starts coming through, and they see Telford.

                    "Uh oh, if I do it now, I could end up killing Rush and Telford. I'll take 30 seconds to disconnect the stones and then vent the atmosphere, that way only Telford is at risk. We should be able to revive him after, but he's a soldier, and if he is back to normal, he'll understand. The life of 1 soldier vs. the lives of everyone on this ship, soldier and civilian."



                    You're seriously going to argue that the Goa'uld weren't arrogant about their power? I mean, I can pull up examples starting from the end of season 1, where Apophis attacked Earth with two ships. Hell, even Apophis planned to use Sokar's arrogance against him. I don't think this is an argument you really want to make when it was pointed out many times in the show by the characters themselves, about how arrogant the Goa'uld were.
                    We'll have to agree to disagree, aside from the Deus ex machina door openers I don't think they are getting out of the gateroom and I don't see how he could have considered his position impenetrable if he positioned troops outside the door as backup, it just doesn't add up.

                    Again, I don't think the goa'uld were arrogant as much as acting arrogant which is defined as:

                    "making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; "

                    Well they were the dominant race in the galaxy, ruled nearly the entire galaxy and were worshipped by millions of humans and Jaffa - so they weren't making claims or being pretensious, they were acting as I'd expect supreme galactic rulers to act. Their one arrogant/pretensious claim was that they were gods which as I said was an act that they knew was a lie.

                    If not for another Deus ex machina moment when SG-1 found the coords for one of the ha'tak how would earth have stopped even 1 ha'tak and why was it arrogant?

                    Comment


                      Good idea Sami_; it feels like we're going in circles now.

                      Agree to disagree, Kaiphantom? I still maintain that Young is a competent soldier/leader most of the time while allowing his emotions to cloud his judgement at other times, thus making him unfit for command if there were anyone better around (Telford perhaps). Whether he's incompetent, stupid, or emotionally compromised (my view), he's still my favourite character at the moment (though Rush and Eli are very close behind) and I love seeing him trying to persevere despite his many flaws. You may disagree, but such is life.

                      Comment


                        I'd be a lot more forgiving of Young if what he did didnt come across as stupid. I understand not venting the gateroom, and I admired his "we're not losing anyone" stance, but I think completely surrendering is simply inexcusable.

                        This is coming from a Young fan who wishes his fall from grace would have been executed better

                        Comment


                          I don't believe complete surrender was the plan though, as both Rush and Brody were in the process of retaking control before something went wacky. If anything, it was the illusion of surrender, which allowed for getting Scott and Greer outside in order to fix the shields. If they hadn't been willing to at least have the illusion of surrender, then none of that would have gone into place, and they would all be dead.
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                            I think it was the plan to ask the LA to surrender before venting the gate room, otherwise why didn't Young vent the gate room before LA arrived thus killing them as soon as they stepped through the gate. Isn't it or shouldn't it be millitry protacal to ask your enemy to surrender when possible before killing them. Plus we had the element of surprise as the LA would have expected to enter the gate room the doors open and earth millitry confused and easy to subdue so Young has hardly been incompetant, just unlucky.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
                              I think it was the plan to ask the LA to surrender before venting the gate room, otherwise why didn't Young vent the gate room before LA arrived thus killing them as soon as they stepped through the gate. Isn't it or shouldn't it be millitry protacal to ask your enemy to surrender when possible before killing them. Plus we had the element of surprise as the LA would have expected to enter the gate room the doors open and earth millitry confused and easy to subdue so Young has hardly been incompetant, just unlucky.
                              I think they've all had a run of really rotten luck
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                                [QUOTE=Sami_;11685901... I don't see how he could have considered his position impenetrable if he positioned troops outside the door as backup, it just doesn't add up.[/quote]

                                Tell that to JM.

                                If not for another Deus ex machina moment when SG-1 found the coords for one of the ha'tak how would earth have stopped even 1 ha'tak and why was it arrogant?
                                This could get off topic, but the coords weren't a deus ex machina. There was an entire episode earlier that explained exactly how DJ got those coordinates. As for pops, it was arrogance to assume the Earth couldn't do anything. Hell, it was arrogant to assume that anything could go wrong; remember, Bra'tac planned to start a mini-rebellion by attacking pop's gliders in his son's name. And it caused his mission to fail. On the other side of the coin, there was that military dude who arrogantly explained how they'd deal with pops using naquada nukes. "Goa'uld Busters" I think they were called.

                                Originally posted by PG15 View Post
                                Agree to disagree, Kaiphantom? I still maintain that Young is a competent soldier/leader most of the time while allowing his emotions to cloud his judgement at other times, thus making him unfit for command if there were anyone better around (Telford perhaps). Whether he's incompetent, stupid, or emotionally compromised (my view), he's still my favourite character at the moment (though Rush and Eli are very close behind) and I love seeing him trying to persevere despite his many flaws. You may disagree, but such is life.
                                It never felt like circles to me. In any debate, if I am unable to get my point across, I keep trying different tacks. By all means, if you don't feel like discussing it anymore, then feel free to say you're done. I'll keep debating as long as someone else wants to.

                                I just don't honestly see how you can take an "math expert" seriously if he forgets how to add "1+1." It's such a simple, basic part of his knowledge base, that you'd seriously question his credentials. At one time, he may have been competent, but as many people have noted, he isn't anymore. This isn't about whether he was competent at all, just that he is not *now.*

                                We humans always seek rationalizations and justifications for our behavior, and that of other people we support. We want to explain away the flaws, so they aren't really responsible. It's what I call the "It's still good!" phenomenom.

                                *cooked turkey gets loose*
                                Homer: "It's just a little mobile, it's still good! It's still good!'
                                *cooked turkey rolls through the street as Bart and Homer chase it*
                                Homer: "It's just a little dirty, it's still good, it's still good!
                                *turkey ends up in the river*
                                Homer: "It's just a little wet, it's still good, it's still good!"
                                *turkey ends up in a dam, then the pressure shoots off it into the horizon*
                                Homer: 'It's just a little airborne, it's still good! It's still-"
                                Bart: "It's gone, Homer."
                                Homer: *sadly* "I know..."

                                So, would it be "Young just made a little mistake, he's still good! He's still good!" ?

                                Edit: Gonna add this question; Since Young basically got the ship taken over and people about to die... to all the people who disagree with the subject of this thread, exactly what would Young have to do for you to go "Yeah, he needs to be removed"? What more could he do, to make the situation even worse, that would make you finally say, "That's too much, he's screwed up too much, and too badly; he needs to go"?

                                Because I can't see it getting much worse than them all about to die.

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