Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
    I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...
    *eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already
    sigpic


    SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

    Comment


      Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
      Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.
      It's also worth noting that Young's fall back position is to say 'You can do this' or 'We can fix this' before having any information about the situation. In Darkness, for example (my aside in blue):

      RUSH (beginning to pace around the room): I refuse to be held responsible for this situation!

      YOUNG: Nobody's blaming you. [Ironically, Young had actually accused Rush of doing something to cause the power failure a few minutes earlier]

      RUSH: I ran out of time!

      YOUNG: We can fix this.

      (By now, Rush is almost apoplectic with rage.)

      RUSH: "Fix this"! What, you think just because you give the order that it's possible? There is no more power! Destiny saved every last ounce of its reserves for life support - and I've seen it happening. I've seen it being sequestered away from me. I tried to ... I tried to stop it. I tried to stop it but I couldn't!
      Just one example.

      Comment


        Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
        *eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already
        No reason to be testy. I think you are forgetting that this is just a TV show. Young is a fictional character and any analysis of his behavior has to be done objectively.
        Last edited by Blackhole; 22 June 2010, 03:54 AM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by tomstone View Post
          Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

          Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

          The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.
          I agree.

          Comment


            How much longer will this thread continue

            If it manages to keep going until the start of S2, I'll be very impressed.

            Comment


              Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
              Originally posted by tomstone View Post
              Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

              [...]

              The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.
              No one is the right person, and yes, even Young says he's one of those 'not the right people'. What's your point? Please feel free to point out any actual ignorance there
              My guess would be ignorance in so far as to cling to Young in command, no matter how good his decisions turn out to be. Because even if he happened to be the textbook example for "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and I'm not convinced he even got the "good intentions" part going most of the time), military will be judged by the results. I totally don't follow the reasoning that Young makes all his decisions with best intentions and catastrophic results therefore don't matter (Stargate does have quite a bit of history with that line of agument, it's still not realistic, even if this show insists on calling itself that). Excusing all of the fails with bad luck also doesn't work for me because either he has chronic bad luck and therefore is a danger to people around him anyway , or he relies on luck in the first place. Which is not particularly sound, strategically speaking.

              Or ignorance to the possibility that this character is actually written to show psychological deteoriation (though I admit it might be hard to spot, given the low starting value of mental stability I see in that character) and will drop/ be dropped from command. So he's maybe going to be the first Stargate commander portrayed as incompetent. On top of that he may be the first Stargate commander failing in his job, so what? You can accept that people have flaws and are bad at the job they are supposed to do, but failing on the job due to these flaws is unthinkable? Why?
              Last edited by Kelara; 22 June 2010, 12:26 AM. Reason: Snipped a part because it was in the wrong thread.

              Comment


                It's been clear to me for quite some time now that Young is not fit to lead. Sure, he tried to atone for his mistakes after the whole coup fiasco, but he is not fit for command of the Destiny.

                The second he wavered in ordering the venting of the gate room, he sealed his fate, in my eyes. It'll be a miracle if he manages to keep his command after the resolution of the incursion. After all, his indecision and misguided attempt at "saving everyone" resulted in countless deaths on our side.

                For all of his talk of the "Greater good", that philosophy apparently flies out the window when he has to sacrifice one of his own best friends (or, if you want to be generous, Rush and/or Telford and Rush, as a way to atone for the attempt at Rush's life).

                "Sure, for the greater good, we must be willing to sacrifice the lives of individuals for the survival of the expedition... unless he's one of my oldest friends! Because then screw that plan!"

                Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Richard (Woolsey), George (S. Hammond), Henry ("Hank" Landry) would all have known what to do: Sacrifice the life of the one for the safety of the many. In fact, many of them have already had to make that choice themselves and they made the correct one (sacrificing the one for the many).

                No matter what happens, unless they manage to go back in time or find a revival machine, the blood of the many casualties on Earth's side will be partially on Young's hands.



                Comment


                  Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by magictrick View Post
                    Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.
                    I agree. Nobody is saying that they hate the character, just the decisions he made. I for one would love to see how Young has to overcome his problems and get back to command.

                    After all he will have to answer to all aboard why all of this had to happen and the sad truth is that it happened by making the wrong decision at the wrong time. People wont trust in his choices anymore as they used to, just as Scoot earlier asked him why he didn`t just say that killing somebody releases them from the mindwashing.

                    In a sidenote, that would have been much more intelligent and nervsaving then letting the people go nuts on you. My feeling is that he didn`t even know that it would work.
                    Fuzzy Wuzzy wasnt old,
                    Fuzzy Wuzzy gotten bald
                    There was Fuzzy no more Wuzzy

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by magictrick View Post
                      Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.
                      Yes, but if you were actually on the expedition, you wouldn't be saying that. Especially not if you're one of the people who got hurt and/or died by his decision to not immediately vent the gate room because he wanted to save one of his friends.

                      He's a trained soldier, he's supposed to be able make the hard decisions. It's in situations like those that Rush's philosophy of the Greater Good shines through as the only viable option. Look at what his attempt at benevolence got him.



                      Comment


                        Maybe. He did break here. But if it's he or Wray, my money is on he.
                        "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by rushy View Post
                          Maybe. He did break here. But if it's he or Wray, my money is on he.
                          Can I ask, why would anyone even consider Wray at all? Not only has she lead a failed (and pretty pathetic) coup, she has displyed no command ability whatsoever. Let's face it, whilst she may work for the IOA, she is in HR, not exactly an area known for actually producing results. Of course however, that statement is very much my opinion based on the times I've had to deal with HR departments in my own life.
                          sigpic
                          ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
                          A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
                          The truth isn't the truth

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                            It's been clear to me for quite some time now that Young is not fit to lead. Sure, he tried to atone for his mistakes after the whole coup fiasco, but he is not fit for command of the Destiny.

                            The second he wavered in ordering the venting of the gate room, he sealed his fate, in my eyes. It'll be a miracle if he manages to keep his command after the resolution of the incursion. After all, his indecision and misguided attempt at "saving everyone" resulted in countless deaths on our side.

                            For all of his talk of the "Greater good", that philosophy apparently flies out the window when he has to sacrifice one of his own best friends (or, if you want to be generous, Rush and/or Telford and Rush, as a way to atone for the attempt at Rush's life).

                            "Sure, for the greater good, we must be willing to sacrifice the lives of individuals for the survival of the expedition... unless he's one of my oldest friends! Because then screw that plan!"

                            Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Richard (Woolsey), George (S. Hammond), Henry ("Hank" Landry) would all have known what to do: Sacrifice the life of the one for the safety of the many. In fact, many of them have already had to make that choice themselves and they made the correct one (sacrificing the one for the many).

                            No matter what happens, unless they manage to go back in time or find a revival machine, the blood of the many casualties on Earth's side will be partially on Young's hands.
                            Do we really have to go through this again?

                            He believed that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom - a perfectly reasonable assumption.

                            They are onboard a spaceship which currently has zero strategic value, is no threat to anyone and they don't have much food or water or medical supplies - if anyone onboard Destiny or at the SGC was thinking straight they would have talked to the LA instead of attacking them, let them board Destiny peacefully taking the much needed supplies with them.

                            Saying Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Woolsey, Hammond and Landry would have made the right call and always have in the past is just ridiculous. Hammond has left the gate open when weapon fire has been coming through which I believe he stated at the time he should not have done and I believe that all the others would have done the exact same thing - for all he knew a nuke (or worse) was on its way through.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Sami_ View Post
                              Do we really have to go through this again?

                              He believed that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom - a perfectly reasonable assumption.
                              I agree, do we really have to go through this again?

                              Because believing they couldn't get out of the gateroom was monumentally stupid for a military commander. You have to make the assumption that they were armed, and most likely would have carried explosives, with which they could blow open the doors.

                              So please stop repeating the falsehood that it was a reasonable assumption they couldn't get out; it wasn't. It was just another stupid mistake on Young's part, in the comedy of errors of his that led to the LA having the upper hand at the end of the season. Heh, the only reason they have the ship is because Young was in charge. If Jack, or Sam, or Hammond, or Landry had been in charge up there, the LA wouldn't have had a chance.

                              Comment


                                I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?

                                Also, Young did assume the LA were armed (mentioned in the show) and that they could get out of the Gateroom, otherwise there wouldn't have been soldiers posted around it. It seems like it was a combination of a momentary lapse of judgement due to the unexpected arrival of Telford/Rush and the skills of the LA forces - and even if he assumed they had explosives, maybe he thought it'd take them time to set it up and to get all of their forces out of the blast radius, who knows. Young made a mistake, yes, but it wasn't just random stupidity; there was an "emotional moment" involved - and yes, I know that's bad for a commander, but it's more understandable and relatable IMHO than just stupidity, especially for someone who suddenly jumped from commanding a backwater research base to a mysterious rust bucket of a spaceship that sees action (of one form or another) much more frequently.

                                Young's emotional undercurrent has been a part of his character flaw the whole season. This is just another manifestation of it. Frankly I'm glad TPTB are keeping him consistent.
                                Last edited by PG15; 05 July 2010, 10:15 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X