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Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

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    #91
    Originally posted by Artemis-Neith View Post
    What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.
    Agreed.

    When your between a Rock and a hard place. You head for the rock full tilt, cause at least you have the odds of busting through.

    Or , When your choices are sucks a lot, to sucks a whole lot more. You take what you can get.

    The original OP post was very thought out. But the centre stone is of which Young's decision to hand over command. A centre stone that does not hold considering his very limited options at the time. Die apart, or hand over command for a roll of a dice to survive . Not the best choices but the one's he had to work with.

    Also, they shot his gal and risked the life of his surrogate son Greer and that irrating greenback Scott. Who he may question every little thing and whine. But still is his 2IC.

    There will by a headbutt heading for someone when we get back..

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
      Excellent analogy by the way. It is interesting what you have said. If that is what you think we each have been debating about then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I have been arguing on the accuracy of my assessment - that he made a mistake, has suffered a deterioration in his state of mind and that it was an intended part of the storyline of the show; or as you aptly put on “the merits of Young’s ability”. I haven't been focusing on whether he should be replaced. From the title of my thread I can of course see why you thought that. In his current state of mind I do think Young’s command ability is impaired but at this point, I don’t have a suitable replacement in mind. Other than Telford, who does have the command experience; but may not be suitable because of his recent brainwashing; I don’t think there is another qualified replacement available. Young is a very smart man and able tactician. If he could get over his fear of loosing a man I think he would be able to resume his command. Although, how one gets over PTSD I don’t know. The Mighty Six platoon may have an insight? From what you have said, your arguments now make far more sense.
      In my mind the accuracy of your assessment, his ongoing problems, and the nature of command are intrinsically linked, which is where we've been hung up on. Your assessment of the situation in the episode is fair (except for that word), he has made mistakes, but his current state of mind shouldn't be looked at in isolation, which was all I've been trying to say. It's easy to vilify the end result, but he started with honest intentions that have slowly escalated his approach as his stress levels/the situation has worsened. He definately comes across as being unable to see the forest through the trees. Maybe a well rested Young would have handled the situation vastly differently, but we'll never know for sure.

      I don't think Young's condition is one that can be fixed, not with the avaliable tools. Time off, along with months/years of seeing a psychiatrist comes to mind, (or retirement as he had wanted after the Icarus posting) seems like the most reasonable "fixes", but neither is readily avaliable.

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
        In my mind the accuracy of your assessment, his ongoing problems, and the nature of command are intrinsically linked, which is where we've been hung up on. Your assessment of the situation in the episode is fair (except for that word), he has made mistakes, but his current state of mind shouldn't be looked at in isolation, which was all I've been trying to say. It's easy to vilify the end result, but he started with honest intentions that have slowly escalated his approach as his stress levels/the situation has worsened. He definately comes across as being unable to see the forest through the trees. Maybe a well rested Young would have handled the situation vastly differently, but we'll never know for sure.

        I don't think Young's condition is one that can be fixed, not with the avaliable tools. Time off, along with months/years of seeing a psychiatrist comes to mind, (or retirement as he had wanted after the Icarus posting) seems like the most reasonable "fixes", but neither is readily avaliable.
        I am sorry, I am trying but I am still not understanding exactly what you think we differ on? What is it you are referring to by “that word”? What about his current state of mind can't be looked at in isolation?
        Last edited by Blackhole; 17 June 2010, 04:34 AM.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
          I am sorry, I am trying but I am still not understanding exactly what you think we differ on? What is it you are referring to by “that word”? What about his current state of mind can't be looked at in isolation?
          That word being "hysterics".

          I disagree with blasting the character without looking at what led him to that point, which is what I think you were doing in the OP. I full conceed that he's made mistakes, but very human mistakes under those circumstances.

          His state of mind from the beginning of Incursion. Examining it in isolation would of course paint a much bleaker picture of him - paranoid, secretive, irrational and violent. But he wasn't always so frayed around the edges, etc, and he only reached that point through a successive series of events which took the whole seasons to push him to.

          Again with the courtroom analogy, I saw our little discussion as the prosecution looking at the crime (the man on the edge), and defence looking at the reason behind it (he wasn't always at that point).

          Comment


            #95
            Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by jelgate View Post
              Thats a load of crap. How many times did Hammond and Weir open the irsis even though regulations said not too because of his care for soldiers and "His No Man Left Behind" philosphy
              But SG-1 and SGA were different series. In those, everyone comes home safe and happy, and you could magically save people. It was part of the campy fun.

              In SGU, reality is more present, and people will die if you try to save everyone. You *have* to make harder choices. The series are just different, and marketed that way. So we have to judge Young unfit for being unable to make those hard calls, and for not thinking of the possibilities.

              He didn't vent the gate room right away.
              He didn't consider that the LA could have explosives to blow the doors.
              He didn't think to undo the stones the second he saw Telford.
              He waited to negotiate, even though that will cost him (despite what JM would like to believe)
              He tried to save everyone, and instead got people killed and captured.
              He tried an ambush and even bungled that, getting someone killed.
              He trusted Telford as his *sole* plan, someone who may or may not have been faking.

              In that light, Wray was more successful; at least getting some hostages released. I don't know who would be a better leader, but I do agree it's time to let someone else take over for awhile. Then we can judge who would be better.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
                That word being "hysterics".

                I disagree with blasting the character without looking at what led him to that point, which is what I think you were doing in the OP. I full conceed that he's made mistakes, but very human mistakes under those circumstances.

                His state of mind from the beginning of Incursion. Examining it in isolation would of course paint a much bleaker picture of him - paranoid, secretive, irrational and violent. But he wasn't always so frayed around the edges, etc, and he only reached that point through a successive series of events which took the whole seasons to push him to.

                Again with the courtroom analogy, I saw our little discussion as the prosecution looking at the crime (the man on the edge), and defence looking at the reason behind it (he wasn't always at that point).
                Thanks, I understand now. I went back and looked at my OP. The choice of the terms I employed could have been better. I should have been less deprecating and more respectful of him. At the time, I was angry at what happened to the ship and I felt that Young had let everyone down. From our and others’ discussions I now realize that Young’s choice to delay was based on compassion for his friend Telford. If I had been in his shoes and had gone through what he had since arriving on Destiny I could easily have delayed as well. Unfortunately, tactically I still think Young’s choice to delay was a critical error with catastrophic consequences. I also still think it is the intent of the show’s writers to portray his state of mind deteriorating from PSTD. My reason for this conclusion is his behavior to Park and the others, his attempt to assault Rush plus the inclusion of the O’Neill and Carter scenes I have already described.

                If you look back to the OP I said: “I think for a moment he was completely out of control and was hysterical.” From the definition I posted later, I only meant that for a moment his outburst was “marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion”. Hysterical may be an inflammatory word but in the context I wrote it I still think its usage was accurate. Young was livid when he stormed into the control room and did imo loose control for a moment. Next time I will try to choose my descriptors better. Young does deserve respect for the thankless job of command he has been forced to assume. And I certainly can understand how easy it would have been for someone in his shoes to have made the same mistakes he did.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                  Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.
                  I agree if Young pulls himself together and leads the attack then he may be able to continue in command.

                  You wrote “If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.” is this what you meant? If so, if Young is still in command how can someone else lead the attack against the LA?

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                    I agree if Young pulls himself together and leads the attack then he may be able to continue in command.

                    You wrote “If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.” is this what you meant? If so, if Young is still in command how can someone else lead the attack against the LA?
                    In a situation this desperate then people will follow the person who’s is actually doing something rather than whose “officially” in charge. If it’s Scott who has to rally the crew into an attack on the LA then he will have effectively bypassed Young’s authority. It is possible you could have a situation where Young is still officially in charge, however if he has continued his downward spiral of the last few eps this will simply lead to, for a time at least, Scott being the de facto leader, and holding all the real power on the ship, being his second in command.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                      In a situation this desperate then people will follow the person who’s is actually doing something rather than whose “officially” in charge. If it’s Scott who has to rally the crew into an attack on the LA then he will have effectively bypassed Young’s authority. It is possible you could have a situation where Young is still officially in charge, however if he has continued his downward spiral of the last few eps this will simply lead to, for a time at least, Scott being the de facto leader, and holding all the real power on the ship, being his second in command.
                      Given what has happened, how do you think the other military feel about Young now?

                      Comment


                        Hmm something has been bothering me. Instead of venting the room doesn't the gate room have upper walkways all around it. Wouldn't it have been easier to just have men up there behind barriers to hold them at gun point as the flew through the gate. I think young biggest mistake was allowing them all to come through the gate and get organized before he did anything everything was lost once that happened.

                        Comment


                          I belive if O'neill were there and Daniel was he wouldn't have vented the atmosphere and tried to negotiate and Kiva would open the doors. Let's look at it from Youngs side, He had a plan to stop the LA but the power went out and it got screwed up. So Rivers is killed, Young is very pissed as would anyone else so as a human he wrongly wanted blame someone else. Scientists are in charge of power tell them to fix problem don't analyze. So now Rush disrepects dead man when it was to Young Rush's responsabilty to shut up and fix the problem, Rush is like House he needs a punch.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                            But SG-1 and SGA were different series. In those, everyone comes home safe and happy, and you could magically save people. It was part of the campy fun.

                            In SGU, reality is more present, and people will die if you try to save everyone. You *have* to make harder choices. The series are just different, and marketed that way. So we have to judge Young unfit for being unable to make those hard calls, and for not thinking of the possibilities.

                            He didn't vent the gate room right away.
                            He didn't consider that the LA could have explosives to blow the doors.
                            He didn't think to undo the stones the second he saw Telford.
                            He waited to negotiate, even though that will cost him (despite what JM would like to believe)
                            He tried to save everyone, and instead got people killed and captured.
                            He tried an ambush and even bungled that, getting someone killed.
                            He trusted Telford as his *sole* plan, someone who may or may not have been faking.

                            In that light, Wray was more successful; at least getting some hostages released. I don't know who would be a better leader, but I do agree it's time to let someone else take over for awhile. Then we can judge who would be better.
                            I agree the reality of SGU changes the equation entirely. Young is going to be held to a higher standard of accountability.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                              I agree the reality of SGU changes the equation entirely. Young is going to be held to a higher standard of accountability.
                              I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.
                              Originally posted by aretood2
                              Jelgate is right

                              Comment


                                Given what has happened, how do you think the other military feel about Young now?
                                I'm pretty sure Greer still worships the ground he walks on. The others... I don't know. I had expected them to be horrified back when it became obvious that he marooned Rush but they were on his side. I don't know what it would take for them to figure out he's psycho.

                                I'd like Scott or Telford to relieve him of military command.

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