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Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

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    #76
    When things go well, he is pretty good. however at the first sign of difficulty he's porked.


    The problem is confidence. Even jack knows that. When he overcompensates, he screws up.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
      The plan was to evacuate the chamber once they arrived. Young delayed when he saw Telford.

      I never questioned the easiness just his choice to delay.
      Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.

      True, but Jack has saved Earth a number of times so they must have cut him some slack. My point is more than whether O'Neill had a right to say anything to him but the fact that he did. I was speaking from a dramatic viewpoint as to why the writers had bothered to include that scene at all? The only reasonable explanation is it was there to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind. Another scene that was included for the same purpose was the scene where Sam is forced to leave two of her 302 pilots behind to save her ship. She was able to make the ultimate decision to sacrifice the two men when necessary. Young was not. He was unable to order the evacuation of the gate room because he knew it would kill Telford. So he delayed and passed up his only window of opportunity to thwart the LA attack while still confined to the gate room. His delay cost them the ship.

      I can see no other reasonable explanation for the purpose of these two scenes along with Young’s emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush but to showcase that Young mental state had deteriorated to a point where he could no longer make those hardest of decisions that any competent commander must be capable of making and that it was part of the show's storyline.
      Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

      Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.

      How would you explain the inclusion of those two scenes and his emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush if not by that explanation?
      To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

      I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.

      Imo he was hysterical for a moment and he attacked Rush. Those aren't behaviors I would expect from a commander that was completely psychologically sound.
      Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?

      I never questioned the honorability of his intent just the soundness of his decision. How can criticizing mistakes in judgment be bashing? By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty of bashing which is preposterous.

      I never said it was easy just necessary.
      Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

      However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

      I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.

      Comment


        #78
        We're back to "character assassination", huh? I wonder if it will still get called that if TPTB make it canon some time.

        The way I see it: Noone disputes that Young is under great stress from minute one of the show (personal drama, Telford rivalry, LA attack1, gating to destiny just to mention the first things). Noone disputes that Young wasn't prepared for a lot that happened since then, add in that he is hit by every persons death under his command (to whatever degree). Postulating that he deep down is a good guy wanting to do right (which is hard for me, personally, to do, as the wife scenes biased me as to the mindset and motivations of the character... which I am aware of, but still unwilling to just handwave the scenes). While he may or may not be hysterical, what do you think will happen when he learns about Telfords and TJs injuries and the loss of the baby?

        Personally, I can't see a deus ex machina for that situation. He cares/cared about them and would really have to be made of Teflon to just shrug that off. He's barely plodding on through now (see his reactions after the mutiny, the not shaving thing, immediately handing control to Wray in the last eps might also be taken as evidence), so what if he really crumbles to that last strain? It would do the totally horrible "trick" of keeping the situation realistic. As much as I hate the phrase "this is not SG1/SGA" it would fit in with Young being the first military commander of the franchise to step down because the strain gets to be too much to deal with and him admitting to it. Which *gasp* surely never happens in the real military but only on TV, right ?

        Also, stepping down doesn't have to be a forever, "good riddance to you!" thing. It might be temporary to deal with the worst immediate fallout. Just as a thought.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
          the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.
          Not all. It was stopped mid transfer.

          Regardless, venting atmosphere was a moot point because it would have taken far more time than it took the LA to open the doors with their devices, so they would have had those doors open anyway. The end result would have been the same.
          Not if it was already vented. WE had ample time to sset that up.

          He should never vent the room to kill the LA as they arrived, it would be a war crime.
          Pray tell how would that be a war crime? They are not prisoners being killed...

          So Young might fancy being seen as the benevolent "I will everything for everyone under my command" commander, but in truth his actions can be interpreted in hugely different ways, if one wants to.
          While that is a good point, show me a senior officer who hsa NOT shown favoritism.

          the end of S1 Young's lost pretty much everything; his ship, his baby, his bit on the side, his temper, his limp... He'll be tempered by adversity and emerge from it a far stronger, better person.
          Only if he learns from all this.

          Yes venting the atmosphere may have resulted in LA killing all the hostages. Young needed to cut his losses and end the threat. He didn't and now instead of 10 hostages at risk the entire crew is and he has lost the ship.
          Very true. ALL battlefield commanders know that in combat there WILL be casualties. You just have to do what is right and minimize the risk to all. In this situation, losing the 12 hostages while saving the ship is minimizing the risk to all the rest. ERGO it is the better solution.

          Hammond and Weir lost control of their bases all the time and yet kept control of them after the ordeal.
          But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.

          Young is acting like O'Neill when he should be acting like Hammond. Scott can act like O'Neill and pull off insane rescues at the last minute but Young should be ready to sacrifice anyone on Destiny in order to save the crew. Would Hammond have hesiated to blow the base if a bunch of aliens got a foothold? No he would have the countdown for a nuke running the moment they got a foothold.
          Heck it does not even have to be a foot hold situation that caused it. Just an issue that could ge out (all those viruses etc).

          He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.
          Hence why i have advocated for also removing all the gravity.

          He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.
          But when the cost of not making that decision (sacrificing those lives) is at the cost of MORE lives,then he SHOULD have made the call.

          Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.
          UBT when jack did it, it was only his own ass on the line, not all the bases (ships).

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by garhkal View Post
            \
            But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.
            .
            Thats a load of crap. How many times did Hammond and Weir open the irsis even though regulations said not too because of his care for soldiers and "His No Man Left Behind" philosphy
            Originally posted by aretood2
            Jelgate is right

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
              Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.



              Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

              Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.



              To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

              I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.



              Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?

              Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

              However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

              I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.
              Green...well, an attempt at green

              Originally posted by garhkal View Post
              Not all. It was stopped mid transfer.
              Not if it was already vented. WE had ample time to sset that up.

              Pray tell how would that be a war crime? They are not prisoners being killed...
              While that is a good point, show me a senior officer who hsa NOT shown favoritism.



              Only if he learns from all this.



              Very true. ALL battlefield commanders know that in combat there WILL be casualties. You just have to do what is right and minimize the risk to all. In this situation, losing the 12 hostages while saving the ship is minimizing the risk to all the rest. ERGO it is the better solution.



              But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.



              Heck it does not even have to be a foot hold situation that caused it. Just an issue that could ge out (all those viruses etc).



              Hence why i have advocated for also removing all the gravity.



              But when the cost of not making that decision (sacrificing those lives) is at the cost of MORE lives,then he SHOULD have made the call.



              UBT when jack did it, it was only his own ass on the line, not all the bases (ships).
              I'm not sure if you're aware, but most of what you have quoted are the quotes of someone else. Can you please edit your post to either take my name out of those things that I haven't said or remove my name altogether? Thanks
              sigpic


              SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

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                #82
                Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
                Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.

                Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

                Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.

                To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

                I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.

                Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?

                Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

                However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

                I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.
                You like Young and feel bad about the character. You see him as flawed but as doing the best he can under incredibly difficult circumstances. He has no friends; no place to go for R & R to escape from the overwhelming pressures of his command. His raison d'etre is not to make any decision that will directly leave any blood on his hands. He compassionately delayed evacuating the room saving Telford and not adding any more corpses from LA to his conscience. He has had a very tough time, anyone is going to get a little angry and frustrated and sure he is a little war weary but calling him hysterical is unfair and mean. Comparing him to “Jack the hero from another story, the franchise's golden boy and Sam the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman (her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's)” is unfair. You don’t understand how I can talk badly about him without taking into consideration everything he has been through and his honorable intentions. All my criticisms seem like slights and character bashing. This is Stargate everything usually works out for the best; I need to be patient and wait until next season’s episode before making any judgments.

                The above is my attempt to put into words how I think you and some others probably feel about Young’s actions in Incursion 1 & 2 and view my arguments. It is not an attempt at sarcasm nor intended to belittle.

                I tried to make a logical dispassionate evaluation of his command decisions based solely on how effective they were in repelling the LA attack and tried to evaluate the soundness of his judgment by determining what other commanders would have done had they been in his place. Everything Young has been through and his honorable intentions were considerations I viewed as irrelevant. I made an assessment of his psychological state of mind based on my observation of his emotional reactions and on how other characters have reacted and said to him. I also tried to demonstrate that my conclusions were an intended part of the storyline by citing (what I considered were) corroborative dialog and scenes.

                After extensive debate I can see now that I am worlds apart from some posters in the way we each viewed what unfolded in the episode. They view that Young did the best he could in a very difficult situation and any criticisms of his actions, judgment or state of mind are unfounded and unfair; and we will all have to wait till next season to see how it all turns out.

                My view is: due to psychological deterioration from PTSD, from past and time spent on Destiny Young could not order the evacuation of the gate room as he had planned because it probably would have involved the sacrifice of Telford’s life. The order was one that any competent military commander should and would have made because of its tactical soundness and necessity. By missing the critical window of opportunity he gave LA the time it needed to exit the gate room. His decision to delay was a catastrophic mistake that along with a string of other poor decisions imo lead to the loss of the ship. Furthermore, even if there is a miraculous deus ex machina resolution next season; the several fatalities and injuries that have already occurred would have been prevented if he had not delayed.
                Last edited by Blackhole; 16 June 2010, 12:26 PM.

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                  #83
                  I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by Loheat View Post
                    I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too
                    Imo I think it was clear that the show intends to portray Young as crashing and burning. I don't know if there will be an immediate favorable resolution or if there will be an arc with LA in control of the ship? Will have to wait and see.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Loheat View Post
                      I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too
                      What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.
                      sigpic

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                        #86
                        Originally posted by Artemis-Neith View Post
                        What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.
                        I completely agree.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by Artemis-Neith View Post
                          What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.
                          He could come with a plan to take back the ship, anything over surrender. Hell, they even knew that every 34 minutes or whatever the lights would go out, that might give them the jump on the Lucian Alliance. I'm okay with him crashing and burning, I think the ending scene was great, and I felt defeated, as I imagine Young did.
                          I just think it was executed poorly because instead of thinking he made some moral decision to stop further loss of life I think he foolishly put his people in even greater danger

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by Loheat View Post
                            He could come with a plan to take back the ship, anything over surrender. Hell, they even knew that every 34 minutes or whatever the lights would go out, that might give them the jump on the Lucian Alliance. I'm okay with him crashing and burning, I think the ending scene was great, and I felt defeated, as I imagine Young did.
                            I just think it was executed poorly because instead of thinking he made some moral decision to stop further loss of life I think he foolishly put his people in even greater danger
                            If by moral decision you mean to delay to try to save Telford's life I completely agree with you. I really feel for Young it would be a horrible place to be in to have to sacrifice a good friend to save the ship particularly given Telford was brainwashed for the last year or however long it was. Young just frees him then immediately has to give the order to kill him. That has to be the hardest thing a military officer would ever have to do is sacrifice a friend. I think Young wants to do the right thing but he is flawed and makes mistakes. Commanding Destiny has to be the most thankless job around. Flawed characters and moral ambiguity is what makes this show so interesting. No one can blame Young for making the mistake he did but the simple fact remains his compassion to save Telford cost him the ship. Since this is a TV show and things usually work out for the best the consequences of his mistake won't be as dire as they would have had this been a real situation. Although this show tries to be far more realistic than other shows; it may be that the resolution won't be as miraculous as it would have been if it had occurred on SG-1 or Atlantis. I fully expect that TJ is going to loose her baby and both her and Young are going to be devastated by it. I look forward to next season.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                              After extensive debate I can see now that I am worlds apart from some posters in the way we each viewed what unfolded in the episode.
                              We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

                              A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
                                We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

                                A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.
                                Excellent analogy by the way. It is interesting what you have said. If that is what you think we each have been debating about then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I have been arguing on the accuracy of my assessment - that he made a mistake, has suffered a deterioration in his state of mind and that it was an intended part of the storyline of the show; or as you aptly put on “the merits of Young’s ability”. I haven't been focusing on whether he should be replaced. From the title of my thread I can of course see why you thought that. In his current state of mind I do think Young’s command ability is impaired but at this point, I don’t have a suitable replacement in mind. Other than Telford, who does have the command experience; but may not be suitable because of his recent brainwashing; I don’t think there is another qualified replacement available. Young is a very smart man and able tactician. If he could get over his fear of loosing a man I think he would be able to resume his command. Although, how one gets over PTSD I don’t know. The Mighty Six platoon may have an insight? From what you have said, your arguments now make far more sense.
                                Last edited by Blackhole; 17 June 2010, 12:57 AM.

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