Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #61
    Am I the only one who thinks Young and Rush are very interesting characters because they are both quite fallible and human? Rush, as Shai Hulud pointed out, is quite the Machavellian but also capable of quite deep emotional attachments. He's desperately seeking something, we're not sure what. He's willing to throw people under the bus but doesn't seem to delight in his choices when he does do the throwing.

    Young, on the other hand, wants desperately to be on the side of the angels and has a much harder time making hard choices that end up with people dead whether he cares about them or not. He, conversely, recognizes that in his position he must make extremely hard decisions that will end up with people under his jurisdiction dieing. He hates that. He wants things to go smoothly but doesn't really have the personality, in extreme situations, to get people to work at their best. As another person pointed out he yells, without much purpose, when he gets frustrated or angry but I think he recognizes how useless the yelling is despite his inability to control it. He cares quite deeply for the people under his command and laments every death, particularly the trivial ones.

    This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

    SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

    "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

    Comment


      #62
      Dial it back people.

      The thread is about Young's state of mind at the end of the season.

      It is NOT open season to tear him apart. Nor is it open season to start up a 'my character is better than yours' bicker fest.

      Try to DISCUSS instead of sniping and snarking.

      If you're not willing to discuss things like adults, stay out of the thread.
      Where in the World is George Hammond?


      sigpic

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
        All started by Young delaying to immediately evacuate the gate room.
        He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.

        His initial plan was to capture them, possibly for intel.

        So...I am not allowed to learn from others? You are saying I can only post arguments I personally thought of?
        No, there was nothing there for me to respond to. I could have ignored it or not quote it, but I left it in for completeness' sake.

        How can they fix something if they don't understand what the problem was? So Young has a right to be upset because Park, Volker, Brody and Rush are not all knowing?
        Young wanted action, not words. Ever notice how little technobabble there was in RDM's BSG (assuming you watched it)? Same principle. Young doesn't want to know that the flux capacitor is only at 0.008394% power because the power couplings behind the tertiary adjunct of the main computer's third control panel have depolarised or something.

        He wanted them to work the problem rather than waste time explaining why they don't know. In a high stress, time sensitive situation, I'm sure you'd want your eggheads to work it rather than explain it. (The way he did it is addressed below)

        A competent commander is suppose to keep cool during a crisis situation and not fly off the handle.
        Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief. In the previous few weeks, he's been couped up on the ship (the intergalactic trip), beseiged by the blues, killed a friend (then revived him) then his ship came under seige from the inside.

        Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship. Whether he's politicking with Telford on Icarus, or Wray/Rush on Destiny, he has to be constantly watching his back and that kind of pressure is mentally exhausting. As people have said, he probably suffers from some degree of PTSD, and when coupled with mental exhaustion, momentarily losing his cool is hardly surprising. Any military psychologist or psychiatrist would have prescribed Young plenty of R+R before this point, but as you yourself pointed out, who is there to step up? Officers who are wet behind the ears, an underqualified HR expert, or the mad scientist who is chasing his dream?

        The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.

        Yes venting the atmosphere may have resulted in LA killing all the hostages. Young needed to cut his losses and end the threat. He didn't and now instead of 10 hostages at risk the entire crew is and he has lost the ship.
        He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.

        No there wasn't and doing what Young did lost the ship and put everyone's' life in imminent mortal peril.
        Young opted for the high risk vs high reward gambit, and it was a solid plan to achieve his goals, given the other options he had at the time: vent atmosphere and kill all the hostages; frontal assault bloodbath; or going all in, where he can win it all or lose it all. He chose the most audacious plan, and like high risk vs high reward thoughout history, sometimes it doesn't pay. This time, it didn't.

        Much more hysterical. Keeping cool are what good commanders are suppose to do.
        Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.

        No I pointed out a catastrophic tactical mistake that would have thwarted LA's attack and saved the ship and only put Telford's life at risk; a life that may have been able to be saved if he was resuscitated in time. A mistake that General O'Neill thought serious enough to threaten to remove him from command for.
        Given what we already know about Young, and that he spent the better part of the previous 2 episodes saving Telford, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Young did what he did. It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

        Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

        If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
          This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

          SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.
          ^^^ This!

          Everyone on Destiny has screwed up something, to some degree, and that is precisely why I enjoy the characters so much - even the ones whose actions I don't agree with (and there are quite a few of them). There's no delineation between military and civilian, between male and female, blonde and brunette or whatever - they are all flawed, fallible and utterly, painfully and frustratingly human.
          sigpic

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Lahela View Post
            ^^^ This!

            Everyone on Destiny has screwed up something, to some degree, and that is precisely why I enjoy the characters so much - even the ones whose actions I don't agree with (and there are quite a few of them). There's no delineation between military and civilian, between male and female, blonde and brunette or whatever - they are all flawed, fallible and utterly, painfully and frustratingly human.
            Except BAG of course
            Originally posted by aretood2
            Jelgate is right

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by jelgate View Post
              Except BAG of course
              I’m sure even BAG made a mistake in his notes. This is the Destiny crew we are talking about, it’s dysfunctional junction on the ship.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                I’m sure even BAG made a mistake in his notes. This is the Destiny crew we are talking about, it’s dysfunctional junction on the ship.
                Blasphemy. May the Great Notetaker have mercy on you
                Originally posted by aretood2
                Jelgate is right

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
                  Am I the only one who thinks Young and Rush are very interesting characters because they are both quite fallible and human? Rush, as Shai Hulud pointed out, is quite the Machavellian but also capable of quite deep emotional attachments. He's desperately seeking something, we're not sure what. He's willing to throw people under the bus but doesn't seem to delight in his choices when he does do the throwing.

                  Young, on the other hand, wants desperately to be on the side of the angels and has a much harder time making hard choices that end up with people dead whether he cares about them or not. He, conversely, recognizes that in his position he must make extremely hard decisions that will end up with people under his jurisdiction dieing. He hates that. He wants things to go smoothly but doesn't really have the personality, in extreme situations, to get people to work at their best. As another person pointed out he yells, without much purpose, when he gets frustrated or angry but I think he recognizes how useless the yelling is despite his inability to control it. He cares quite deeply for the people under his command and laments every death, particularly the trivial ones.

                  This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

                  SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.
                  The Rush/Young dynamic is one of the more fascinating in thise series. In fact, it's one of the more interesting I've seen in a LOT of series. The two play off each other all the time and I think the writers are clearly setting us up for a friendship, if a hard earned one. I imagine Young being a colder person at one point, being able to make the decisions that would have had him end up where he is. Then something happens and changes him and he can't feel the same anymore and is changed. Rush, from the episode Human, was clearly a different person before his wife died, and then, something changed, and he became a colder person. These two guys are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. But they are on the same spectrum.

                  Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post

                  Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief.....

                  ...Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship......The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.

                  ....Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.

                  .... It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

                  Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

                  If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).
                  I think considering what he's coping with, he's held it together pretty well. I'm just not seeing all this "hysteria" that's getting thrown around; I don't think we've seen anything even remotely like that from Young. He's clearly under a hell of a lot of strain, but hysteria? No. Frustration and anger, yes. And yes, he's not had any sort of a break and is expected (by "us" apparently), to be perfect and never falter. I think that if you ignore Young's need to keep his crew together, and that means all the crew, then I'd say that maybe there isn't enough thought being considered about his character before the character assassinations begin. There are very few people on that ship that could stand up to that sort of scrutiny, which is what the idea is, I suppose.
                  sigpic


                  SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by jelgate View Post
                    Except BAG of course
                    Well of course, but I was talking about the mere humans.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
                      He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.
                      If you are suggesting that initially evacuating the gate room would have been rendered moot by the door opening devices then you are incorrect.

                      First as I have already said Young should have expected LA to be able to breech the gate room doors very fast. Even if the door opening devices couldn't have been expected, explosives would have been. We have seen Scott open a door with explosives just about as fast as LA did with their door opening devices. Young had to know that once the LA invaders arrived that they could open the doors with explosives very quickly.

                      Volker and Brody said it would take less than a minute to vent the room to vacuum. A person would pass out well before vacuum was reached. If Young had evacuated the room immediately after the first group of invaders was thrown through they would have been incapacitated before any action could have been taken. All the others arriving in a vacuum would have passed out in seconds. The attack would have been thwarted.

                      That was why General O’Neill was shown criticizing Young’s decision and threatening to replace him in command. The plan would have worked and his choice to delay was a critical and clear error in judgment that cost the ship and put everyone's lives in mortal danger.

                      His initial plan was to capture them, possibly for intel.

                      No, there was nothing there for me to respond to. I could have ignored it or not quote it, but I left it in for completeness' sake.

                      Young wanted action, not words. Ever notice how little technobabble there was in RDM's BSG (assuming you watched it)? Same principle. Young doesn't want to know that the flux capacitor is only at 0.008394% power because the power couplings behind the tertiary adjunct of the main computer's third control panel have depolarised or something.

                      He wanted them to work the problem rather than waste time explaining why they don't know. In a high stress, time sensitive situation, I'm sure you'd want your eggheads to work it rather than explain it. (The way he did it is addressed below)
                      I don't care what Young wanted. It was impossible for them to fix a problem when you don't know what was causing it. Young was so angry and frustrated that he lost it. Suggesting that they were making excuses and he called them on it is ridiculous and is just plain ignoring what happened. And I still think for a moment he was hysterical.

                      Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief. In the previous few weeks, he's been couped up on the ship (the intergalactic trip), beseiged by the blues, killed a friend (then revived him) then his ship came under seige from the inside.

                      Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship. Whether he's politicking with Telford on Icarus, or Wray/Rush on Destiny, he has to be constantly watching his back and that kind of pressure is mentally exhausting. As people have said, he probably suffers from some degree of PTSD, and when coupled with mental exhaustion, momentarily losing his cool is hardly surprising. Any military psychologist or psychiatrist would have prescribed Young plenty of R+R before this point, but as you yourself pointed out, who is there to step up? Officers who are wet behind the ears, an underqualified HR expert, or the mad scientist who is chasing his dream?

                      The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.

                      He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.

                      Young opted for the high risk vs high reward gambit, and it was a solid plan to achieve his goals, given the other options he had at the time: vent atmosphere and kill all the hostages; frontal assault bloodbath; or going all in, where he can win it all or lose it all. He chose the most audacious plan, and like high risk vs high reward thoughout history, sometimes it doesn't pay. This time, it didn't.

                      Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.

                      Given what we already know about Young, and that he spent the better part of the previous 2 episodes saving Telford, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Young did what he did. It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

                      Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

                      If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).
                      You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.

                      As far as your high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

                      Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.
                      Last edited by Blackhole; 15 June 2010, 11:40 AM.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                        I think considering what he's coping with, he's held it together pretty well. I'm just not seeing all this "hysteria" that's getting thrown around; I don't think we've seen anything even remotely like that from Young. He's clearly under a hell of a lot of strain, but hysteria? No. Frustration and anger, yes. And yes, he's not had any sort of a break and is expected (by "us" apparently), to be perfect and never falter. I think that if you ignore Young's need to keep his crew together, and that means all the crew, then I'd say that maybe there isn't enough thought being considered about his character before the character assassinations begin. There are very few people on that ship that could stand up to that sort of scrutiny, which is what the idea is, I suppose.
                        Personally I said he was hysterical for a moment. Have others passed around “hysteria”?

                        Here is the transcript for the scene in question:

                        CONTROL INTERFACE ROOM. Young storms in and glares at Rush, Brody, Dale Volker and Lisa Park.

                        YOUNG: What the hell just happened?

                        VOLKER: We still don't know.

                        PARK: We're just getting systems back online, then maybe we can analyse ...

                        YOUNG (furiously): Screw analyse. Fix it!

                        BRODY: We've gotta know what's broken first.

                        YOUNG (loudly, sternly): Do it now.

                        (The others stare at him, waiting for him to calm down. He turns away, breathing rapidly and fighting his fury. After a few seconds, he turns back to them, still visibly upset.)

                        YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

                        PARK (appalled): What?!

                        (Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

                        RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

                        (Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

                        VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

                        (Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

                        RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

                        (Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

                        RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

                        (Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.)

                        YOUNG: I want you to figure out what's wrong with this ship and fix it. Fix it now.

                        (Tetchily Rush slams his notebook onto the console. Young turns his gaze to Brody, who lifts his hands clear of his jacket and steps away. Unnoticed by any of the men, Lisa is still taking in the news of death of Rivers, who was one of her many sources of “reading material”. Young glowers at Brody and Volker for a moment, then leaves the room. Rush watches him go.)

                        The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it?

                        When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst by Young before in a command crisis situation? You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Why was the scene in Incursion 1 where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement put in there if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind?

                        The transcript for the scene follows:

                        YOUNG: I need to speak to General O'Neill.

                        Not long afterwards, Young is sitting opposite Jack in his office.

                        O'NEILL: Second-guessing a decision is a waste of time.

                        (Young looks down, embarrassed. Jack stares at him sternly.)

                        O'NEILL: I'm not there ... but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should be.

                        YOUNG: I-I can't speak to that, sir.

                        O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.

                        YOUNG: Yes, sir. At the time, I believed that venting the Gateroom would kill both Doctor Rush and Colonel Telford. They deserved a chance.

                        O'NEILL: We lost two 302 pilots sent to stop the attack.

                        YOUNG: I'm sorry.

                        O'NEILL: Colonel Carter knew she'd lose her ship if she tried to save them, but it was the right decision.

                        YOUNG (in a whisper): Yes, sir.

                        (He lowers his head again, sighing.)

                        O'NEILL: Are you up for this, Everett?

                        (Young raises his head and gets to his feet.)

                        YOUNG: Yes, sir.

                        O'NEILL: Because somebody'll take your place if you're not.

                        YOUNG: I'm not gonna let anybody take that ship, sir.

                        O'NEILL: Then get your ass back there.


                        (Nodding, Young leaves the room.)

                        You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.

                        Do you disagree that if Young had immediately evacuated the gate room to vacuum that it would have very likely thwarted the LA attack?

                        Do you disagree that ending the attack at this point is infinitely preferable to the situation Destiny was in at the end of the episode, i.e., the LA in control and all the military contingent moments away from execution?

                        In my mind Young’s decision to delay evacuation of the gate room had catastrophic consequences for the crew and ship. Do you dispute my conclusion?

                        Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.
                        Last edited by Blackhole; 15 June 2010, 12:50 PM.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                          Personally I said he was hysterical for a moment. Have others passed around “hysteria”?
                          Yes, I have seen it, and the description in any case was salted throughout your first post. I see you\ve quoted the transcript and oh, look, supplied me with a definiteion no less! But I disagree that what we saw was hysteria. I would prefer to avoid a Rush example but it's unavoidable. The only time that I have ever seen hysteria displayed by anyone on SGU was by Rush, in Darkness, when he was afraid that Destiny would go cold and dark. I am understanding of that, in that he was clearly ill and also under an incredible amount of strain. We're going to disagree, Blackhole, and all the quoting of transcript and offering of definitions isn't going to change that. I simply do not equate anger and frustration - that were quickly dialed back and moved on from no less- as being hysteria. Your mileage may vary. So you saw hysteria. Good for you. I did not, and until I see something like the scene in darkness where a character completely loses it, I'll give the character the benefit of the doubt.


                          The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think his exchange with Park and the others wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it?
                          how do I describe it? As anger and frustration by a man that wants actions and not a bunch of explanations about why things aren't possible. I see it as neither excessive nor uncontrolled. It wasn't prolonged screaming or crying. He shouted, and then he stopped shouting. When Park asked him not to yell, he had no problem at all not yelling. These are not the actions of someone that is out of control or hysterical. they're the actions of someone frustrated and angry, which is something else entirely.

                          When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst by Young before in a command crisis situation? You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Why was the scene in Incursion 1 where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement put in there if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind?
                          Unprovoked? That's going to break down to a matter of what you believe provocation is and I have no desire to open that can of worms of who did what to whom and whether it was deserved or not. Personally, I have yet to see him get pissed if he wasn't provoked. Again, YMMV. You've got several different things running at the same time here and you've asked them all at various times in various threads. And I've answered. Evacuate the game room and kill Rush (or who he believed to be Rush) as well as possibly Telford. We can play "what he should have" all day but what we have to go on is what he did, and that's choose to save at least one man's life, possibly two, believing that he could bargain to get them back.Criticism by O'Neill - several posters have rightly said that O'Neill really has some gall in criticising Young for that given what he's done to save people. But we're talking about what I thought and what did I think? I think that O\Neill told Young what he needed so that Young could pull himself together.At the end of that talk, Young walks out of that office more determined than ever to do what has to be done. I kind of believe that THAT was the point. It's what any senior should do for any junior and I don't see it the way you do.

                          Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.
                          right, it's calling the shots as YOU see it. You're allowed, go for it. Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.

                          Do you disagree that if Young had immediately evacuated the gate room to vacuum that it would have very likely thwarted the LA attack?
                          we've had this discussion also, Blackhole, and I don't know how many more times I can say it. The first plan was perfect, sure. Plans change, that is something that happens in every war. He didn't expect Telford/Rush to come through the wormhole. When he saw what he believed was Rush, he changed a plan, not knowing that the LA could break those locks. If he had made another decision, he'd be getting bagged on for that too. There really is no way to win this as more and more elaborate "he could have's" come out of every discussion.

                          Do you disagree that ending the attack at this point is infinitely preferable to the situation Destiny was in at the end of the episode, i.e., the LA in control and all the military contingent moments away from execution?
                          we're halfway through seeing a plan being enacted. It's like walking out of the movie theater before the ending and complaining that the plan didn't work when you didn't bother to stay and watch.

                          In my mind Young’s decision to delay evacuation of the gate room had catastrophic consequences for the crew and ship. Do you dispute my conclusion?
                          In your mind, I'm sure you believe that. Again, mileage varies and so I dispute the conclusion. Because I'm waiting for the conclusion.
                          Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.
                          I don't believe that Young has lost the ship, and Young believed he was saving Rush's life, not Telford's, although the two are linked. I don't believe trying to save a man's life, especially when it's a man you've had Rush's history with, should be overlooked.

                          As we've gone around this several times, I think it's best to simply leave it as agreeing to disagree.
                          Last edited by xxxevilgrinxxx; 15 June 2010, 01:56 PM.
                          sigpic


                          SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                            If you are suggesting that initially evacuating the gate room would have been rendered moot by the door opening devices then you are incorrect.

                            First as I have already said Young should have expected LA to be able to breech the gate room doors very fast. Even if the door opening devices couldn't have been expected, explosives would have been. We have seen Scott open a door with explosives just about as fast as LA did with their door opening devices. Young had to know that once the LA invaders arrived that they could open the doors with explosives very quickly.

                            Volker and Brody said it would take less than a minute to vent the room to vacuum. A person would pass out well before vacuum was reached. If Young had evacuated the room immediately after the first group of invaders was thrown through they would have been incapacitated before any action could have been taken.
                            If the gateroom was evacuated before they got on board, you may have a point, but the plan was to give them the opportunity to surrender, otherwise other precautions would have been taken.

                            Young made a snap decision in order to save the life (or alternatively, not risk the life) of a friend. Was it the wrong decision? Possibly. After the emotional rollercoaster ride the two of them had been through (recently and not so recently), was it an easy decision, I'm sure it wasn't.

                            All the others arriving in a vacuum would have passed out in seconds. The attack would have been thwarted.
                            Young would have a room full of corpses, not people passed out, but the attack being thwarted point stands. It would have been messy too.

                            That was why General O’Neill was shown criticizing Young’s decision and threatening to replace him in command. The plan would have worked and his choice to delay was a critical and clear error in judgment that cost the ship and put everyone's lives in mortal danger.
                            Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.

                            I don't care what Young wanted. It was impossible for them to fix a problem when you don't know what was causing it. Young was so angry and frustrated that he lost it. Suggesting that they were making excuses and he called them on it is ridiculous and is just plain ignoring what happened. And I still think for a moment he was hysterical.
                            Shades of Young. He didn't care what the problem was, either. He wanted reassurances that people were working on the problem, but instead, he got "but we don't know" or words to that effect. The scene could have potentially turned out very differently if Park had said something along the lines of "we're working it now".

                            I don't deny that Young was angry or frustrated, nor do I deny he lost it at Rush. However, I didn't at any point say that (a) the eggheads were making excuses; or (b) Young called them out on it. Young wanted them to work the problem, not waste time explaining why they didn't know.

                            He raised his voice in frustration yes, but he didn't lose it until Rush did what Rush does best, which was one step too far at the time.

                            You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.
                            It is bashing when you ignore his raison d'etre in your original argument. At times, it seems the only thing that keeps him going is the desire to get his crew home safely. Take that out of the equation and of course he seems totally irrational. But if you use it as the cornerstone of Young's personality profile, everything he does makes a certain kind of sense - it has it's own consistent logic, even if you don't agree with it.

                            As far as your high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
                            I didn't condone it, but knowing what motivates Young, I can empathise with his justification. We'll have to agree to disagree.

                            Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.
                            If you're willing to sentence a friend, who you've just saved, to death, then you're tougher than granite. Like I've said, Young isn't willing to cross that line.

                            I have no doubt that the writers will have a deus ex machina for Young, just like they did it with Jack, John, Sam, Rodney, Daniel et al. They like their CG explosions for sciency characters, so maybe Rush will accidentally cause the smaller star in the binary system to go nova or something, just as Young is about to be executed.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                              Yes, I have seen it, and the description in any case was salted throughout your first post. I see you\ve quoted the transcript and oh, look, supplied me with a definiteion no less! But I disagree that what we saw was hysteria. I would prefer to avoid a Rush example but it's unavoidable. The only time that I have ever seen hysteria displayed by anyone on SGU was by Rush, in Darkness, when he was afraid that Destiny would go cold and dark. I am understanding of that, in that he was clearly ill and also under an incredible amount of strain. We're going to disagree, Blackhole, and all the quoting of transcript and offering of definitions isn't going to change that. I simply do not equate anger and frustration - that were quickly dialed back and moved on from no less- as being hysteria. Your mileage may vary. So you saw hysteria. Good for you. I did not, and until I see something like the scene in darkness where he completely loses it, I'll give the character the benefit of the doubt.

                              how do I describe it? As anger and frustration by a man that wants actions and not a bunch of explanations about why things aren't possible. I see it as neither excessive or uncontrolled. It wasn't prolonged screaming or crying. He shouted, and then he stopped shouting. When Park asked him not to yell, he had no problem at all not yelling. These are not the actions of someone that is out of control or hysterical. they're the actions of someone frustrated and angry, which is something else entirely.
                              xxxevilgrinxxx I said hysterical for a moment. I even defined exactly what I meant by it. It is a world of difference to say Young was hysterical for a moment and what we saw was hysteria. Feel free to make your point but please don't do so by misrepresenting what I was saying. If you don't think for a moment (short period of time) that Young's outburst of yelling and screaming at Park and others and his attempted assault of Rush wasn’t clearly demonstrative of excessive or uncontrollable emotion then that is your right. Ask a military friend how many times they have seen their commanding officers in crisis situation yell and scream at them for no reason and then try to assault one of them. I guess we have very different views of what the proper behavior of a commander should be.

                              And I see no reason for you to be snarky when I included transcripts and definitions of exactly what I meant. Since you clearly misrepresented my meaning; you obviously needed to read them.

                              Unprovoked? That's going to break down to a matter of what you believe provocation is and I have no desire to open that can of worms of who did what to whom and whether it was deserved or not. Personally, I have yet to see him get pissed if he wasn't provoked. Again, YMMV. You've got several different things running at the same time here and you've asked them all at various times in various threads. And I've answered. Evacuate the game room and kill Rush (or who he believed to be Rush) as well as possibly Telford. We can play "what he should have" all day but what we have to go on is what he did, and that's choose to save at least one man's life, possibly two, believing that he could bargain to get them back.Criticism by O'Neill - several posters have rightly said that O'Neill really has some gall in criticising Young for that given what he's done to save people. But we're talking about what I thought and what did I think? I think that O\Neill told Young what he needed so that Young could pull himself together.At the end of that talk, Young walks out of that office more determined than ever to do what has to be done. I kind of believe that THAT was the point. It's what any senior should do for any junior and I don't see it the way you do.

                              right, it's calling the shots as YOU see it. You're allowed, go for it. Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.

                              we've had this discussion also, Blackhole, and I don't know how many more times I can say it. The first plan was perfect, sure. Plans change, that is something that happens in every war. He didn't expect Telford/Rush to come through the wormhole. When he saw what he believed was Rush, he changed a plan, not knowing that the LA could break those locks. If he had made another decision, he'd be getting bagged on for that too. There really is no way to win this as more and more elaborate "he could have's" come out of every discussion.

                              we're halfway through seeing a plan being enacted. It's like walking out of the movie theater before the ending and complaining that the plan didn't work when you didn't bother to stay and watch.

                              In your mind, I'm sure you believe that. Again, mileage varies and so I dispute the conclusion. Because I'm waiting for the conclusion.
                              I don't believe that Young has lost the ship, and Young believed he was saving Rush's life, not Telford's, although the two are linked. I don't believe trying to save a man's life, especially when it's a man you've had Rush's history with, should be overlooked.

                              As we've gone around this several times, I think it's best to simply leave it as agreeing to disagree.
                              If Young had ordered the stones disconnected it would have taken Rush out of the equation. Whether he thought of it or not is irrelevant. If he didn’t it was an error of judgment. Of course his decision to delay was to save a man’s life. I have never questioned that Young's intention was not honorable just that his decision to do so allowed LA to gain a foothold that led to the loss of the ship. The only reasonable argument to justify his choice to delay was the high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, and are willing to accept the consequences of failure then your view is sound. We may differ on what was a justified risk. That being said, the clear fact still remains that at the end of the episode the ship had fallen and the military contingent was on the verge of execution. You are right that we don’t know what will happen until next season. But regardless of how favorable a dues ex machine resolution may occur that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire there still have been several fatalities and injuries that would have been avoided had Young made the sound tactical decision and immediately evacuated the gate room and risked Telford’s life.

                              You are free to disagree with my conclusion that Young has undergone psychological deterioration over the last two episodes But I still stand by my assertion that his excessive and uncontrolled emotional outburst to Park and the others and his attempt to attack Rush; coupled with the scene where General O’Neill’s criticizes his decision and asks “Are you up for this, Everett?”; and the inclusion of the scene where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); are compelling evidence that he is having a breakdown and it is a part of the show's storyline.

                              Your claim of “ Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.” is not fair or accurate. The entire premise of my argument is that Young made the wrong tactical decision which cost him the ship. The ending of the episode clearly demonstrates the accuracy of that conclusion regardless of how favorable a resolution there is next season. Now if you want to suggest there isn’t enough evidence yet to support my conclusion that Young is undergoing psychological deterioration then fair enough. To claim that these views are in some fashion bagging on a character and character assassination are completely unfair and unreasonable. By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty which is preposterous.

                              Feel free to not reply to my post. I am happy at this point to agree to disagree.
                              Last edited by Blackhole; 15 June 2010, 10:05 PM.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
                                If the gateroom was evacuated before they got on board, you may have a point, but the plan was to give them the opportunity to surrender, otherwise other precautions would have been taken.
                                The plan was to evacuate the chamber once they arrived. Young delayed when he saw Telford.

                                Young made a snap decision in order to save the life (or alternatively, not risk the life) of a friend. Was it the wrong decision? Possibly. After the emotional rollercoaster ride the two of them had been through (recently and not so recently), was it an easy decision, I'm sure it wasn't.
                                I never questioned the easiness just his choice to delay.

                                Young would have a room full of corpses, not people passed out, but the attack being thwarted point stands. It would have been messy too.
                                You are right they probably would have died.

                                Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.
                                True, but Jack has saved Earth a number of times so they must have cut him some slack. My point is more than whether O'Neill had a right to say anything to him but the fact that he did. I was speaking from a dramatic viewpoint as to why the writers had bothered to include that scene at all? The only reasonable explanation is it was there to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind. Another scene that was included for the same purpose was the scene where Sam is forced to leave two of her 302 pilots behind to save her ship. She was able to make the ultimate decision to sacrifice the two men when necessary. Young was not. He was unable to order the evacuation of the gate room because he knew it would kill Telford. So he delayed and passed up his only window of opportunity to thwart the LA attack while still confined to the gate room. His delay cost them the ship.

                                I can see no other reasonable explanation for the purpose of these two scenes along with Young’s emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush but to showcase that Young mental state had deteriorated to a point where he could no longer make those hardest of decisions that any competent commander must be capable of making and that it was part of the show's storyline.

                                How would you explain the inclusion of those two scenes and his emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush if not by that explanation?

                                Shades of Young. He didn't care what the problem was, either. He wanted reassurances that people were working on the problem, but instead, he got "but we don't know" or words to that effect. The scene could have potentially turned out very differently if Park had said something along the lines of "we're working it now".

                                I don't deny that Young was angry or frustrated, nor do I deny he lost it at Rush. However, I didn't at any point say that (a) the eggheads were making excuses; or (b) Young called them out on it. Young wanted them to work the problem, not waste time explaining why they didn't know.

                                He raised his voice in frustration yes, but he didn't lose it until Rush did what Rush does best, which was one step too far at the time.
                                Imo he was hysterical for a moment and he attacked Rush. Those aren't behaviors I would expect from a commander that was completely psychologically sound.

                                It is bashing when you ignore his raison d'etre in your original argument. At times, it seems the only thing that keeps him going is the desire to get his crew home safely. Take that out of the equation and of course he seems totally irrational. But if you use it as the cornerstone of Young's personality profile, everything he does makes a certain kind of sense - it has it's own consistent logic, even if you don't agree with it.

                                I didn't condone it, but knowing what motivates Young, I can empathise with his justification. We'll have to agree to disagree.
                                I never questioned the honorability of his intent just the soundness of his decision. How can criticizing mistakes in judgment be bashing? By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty of bashing which is preposterous.

                                If you're willing to sentence a friend, who you've just saved, to death, then you're tougher than granite. Like I've said, Young isn't willing to cross that line.
                                I never said it was easy just necessary.

                                I have no doubt that the writers will have a deus ex machina for Young, just like they did it with Jack, John, Sam, Rodney, Daniel et al. They like their CG explosions for sciency characters, so maybe Rush will accidentally cause the smaller star in the binary system to go nova or something, just as Young is about to be executed.
                                I agree.
                                Last edited by Blackhole; 15 June 2010, 06:59 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X