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Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

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    Originally posted by PG15 View Post
    ...
    Young's emotional undercurrent has been a part of his character flaw the whole season. This is just another manifestation of it. Frankly I'm glad TPTB are keeping him consistent.
    Yes, this, exactly. It would be very easy and convenient to have his personal flaws forgotten about so he could be all superheroey for the episode and then go back, perhaps, to flaws afterward. It shows a lot of guts on the part of the writers to not take that easy route and to have his actions reflect those flaws at a time like this, because in a whole lot of shows, we'd never see those flaws. I really respect the writers for doing that and not only with Young, but with all the characters.
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      Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
      Yes, this, exactly. It would be very easy and convenient to have his personal flaws forgotten about so he could be all superheroey for the episode and then go back, perhaps, to flaws afterward. It shows a lot of guts on the part of the writers to not take that easy route and to have his actions reflect those flaws at a time like this, because in a whole lot of shows, we'd never see those flaws. I really respect the writers for doing that and not only with Young, but with all the characters.

      I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
      A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
      Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!

      Comment


        Originally posted by Kermee View Post

        I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
        A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
        Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!
        I can just imagine a gagillion torture threads with lots of pearl-clutching all around
        bring on the dark, dark, darkety dark dark dark! Louis Ferreira does a pretty good serial killer....that's all I'm sayin'
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          Originally posted by Kermee View Post

          I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
          A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
          Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!
          Does it matter at this point? At this stage thier are just going to be people who hate Young regardless of his actions. The same could also be said to some who like him. Its the way of fandom
          Originally posted by aretood2
          Jelgate is right

          Comment


            Originally posted by PG15 View Post
            I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?
            To be honest, I read the spoilers when they aired in the Ukraine, haha. So I knew about the keys. But when watching it, I was still wondering why he wasn't venting the atmosphere sooner; from the spoilers, I thought he had a good reason, but I couldn't see it when I watched. And your response here is a bit out of place, because as a military commander, Young should have been trained in proper tactics and assumption about enemy forces (that is, you assume the enemy can do something until proven they can't). It should have been drilled into him in wargames to expect the enemy to carry explosives. Our soldiers do; grenades, C-4, and flashbangs, among others.

            In short, if you or I can think of it, then a military person, not even a commander, should have thought of it already, especially concerning weapons of war.

            Also, Young did assume the LA were armed (mentioned in the show) and that they could get out of the Gateroom, otherwise there wouldn't have been soldiers posted around it.
            Ah, but your words contradict JM. He's repeated it often enough, that "They were trapped in the gateroom, and thus Young lost nothing by waiting and attempting to negotiate; how could he have foreseen the keys?" But if they had explosives, then waiting *does* mean he loses something; the initiative and the chance to end the threat immediately. Hell, even if they didn't have explosives or keys, waiting is still bad, because you give up the initiative and give your enemy time to come up with a counter-measure.

            About as bad as the Dr. evil plan of "I'm going to leave you here in a situation you can easily escape, and not watch you die, and trust everything will work out just fine."

            Dumb. As. Hell. How bad guys have been defeated because they didn't kill the heroes straight off, and instead kept them alive? What you call an "emtional undercurrent as part of his character flaw" most people would call stupidity of the first degree. I mean, like "putting your hand on a hot stove" kind of stupid. That's just painful to watch.

            But the main point I was responding to, was that it was a perfectly valid assumption to make that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom. It wasn't.

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              Originally posted by PG15 View Post
              I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?
              I wasn't yelling but yes, I assumed they would be able to get out of the gateroom. Explosives were obvious. Young should have anticipated it.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                What you call an "emtional undercurrent as part of his character flaw" most people would call stupidity of the first degree. I mean, like "putting your hand on a hot stove" kind of stupid. That's just painful to watch.
                But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

                It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).

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                  Originally posted by PG15 View Post
                  I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?
                  I actually did that. The assumption that they are trapped was stupid. They had Telfords intel and knew exactly what they are up against Terretorywise. It was a dumb decision which followed a downward spiral that did put everyone at risk.
                  Fuzzy Wuzzy wasnt old,
                  Fuzzy Wuzzy gotten bald
                  There was Fuzzy no more Wuzzy

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by PG15 View Post
                    But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

                    It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).
                    This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

                    Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

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                      Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                      This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

                      Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.
                      A whole series of them?

                      Perhaps.

                      By himself.

                      No.

                      Should he have abandoned Rush on the planet?

                      No.

                      Then again Rush should'nt have set him up for murder.

                      Should he have vented the Gateroom?

                      Debatable, could have costed Telford life. Also intelligence was limited and was unknown that they could open doors.

                      Should have surrendered the ship to Kiva?

                      In the old days his science guy would have come up with a plan to prevent this. Didn't have one and didn't have a choice . Surrender to Kiva with a chance to get the ship back later, a gamble with a chance. Or not, and definately die. Low chance vs No chance, as a leader he did what he had to do.

                      Should he be replaced?

                      Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

                      Comment


                        To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by PG15 View Post
                          But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

                          It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).
                          I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.

                          Originally posted by Tuvok View Post
                          ...
                          Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.
                          Amen
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                            ^Remind me to green you for that.

                            Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                            This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.
                            Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again.

                            Seriously though, I can partly agree with the thread subject. Feel free to take a look at my first post in the thread if you haven't already; it outlines what I think TPTB should have Young do.

                            Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.
                            Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.

                            Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Tuvok View Post
                              Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.
                              Kay. You're part of the ship now, on your knees as Kiva's troops put a gun to your head, and you're in that situation because of Young. Put yourself in that position, and tell me honestly if you'd be willing to follow that man again. Or whether you'd go "Oops, you screwed up. It happens. Oh well!"

                              It's easy to say "yeah, it was just a minor oopsie" when you're safe in your computer chair at home. If your life was on the line, I think you'd react a bit differently.

                              Originally posted by Sami_ View Post
                              To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.
                              It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.

                              Originally posted by PG15 View Post
                              Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again.
                              Your doctor screws up repeatedly, and you're scheduled to go in for him to perform an operation on you. Of course, you'd go in, never mind the fact that the past twelve patients have learned they've had medical instruments left inside them after the operation. Yes, this *does* happen, occasionally, but not several times in a row. I think you'd request a different doctor if you found out your current one has a habit of this.

                              Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.
                              Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.

                              Did you forget 1+1? If I told you I forgot the answer, you'd probably think me fairly stupid.

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                                Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                                It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.
                                Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

                                It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.

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