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Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

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    Originally posted by Pharaoh Atem View Post
    and replaced with telford?
    Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
    I sincerely hope not!
    I think if Telford survies he would be good as the 'leader' of the Destiny witch could be likley as he was supposed lead expedition in first and O'neill would think he is better than Young. That would lead to Young being able act like O'neill to Telfords Hammand and could bring 'Drama' as they are both the same rank. Telford would work well with Wray and I think Young would work with him as his eariler actions were as a result of brainwashing wasn't it.

    Originally posted by PG15 View Post
    I disagree. His mission at the time was to rescue the hostages, and thus doing anything that would result in their massacre would be going against that mission and would thus count as a failure. He still thinks they are rescue-able while, had Young did what you did based on your rationale (hostages may die, it'd be over, everyone'd be safe - all assumptions, by the way; how do we know it'd be that easy?), it would seem like he's put them in the "acceptable losses" bin. That's not who Young is, and if I were a hostage, I'd be glad of that.

    You really think Young would've been hailed as a hero if he went through with it and all the hostages died? People would just say he used his gun before he used his brain or something. He can't win.

    Not on these forums, anyway.

    As far as "Young had to realize" - let me just say that I place very little value on those arguments now that we're looking back with hindsight. It's far too easy to think something is obvious and should be foreseen when it's already happened, since whether it's obvious or not is highly subjective. For example, I can say that Young didn't go through with the plan because he foresaw the LA pulling some other surprise out of their sleeves after they kill the hostages and thus riding themselves of their only bargaining chip - after all, why would they do that if, afterward, Young could just kill them all by venting the atmosphere in the gateroom? Nah, they must have a contingency plan, maybe.

    I also place very little value in the "because of what he did, this horrible thing happened" argument when its value rests on the "Young had to realize" argument (i.e. he should've realized that someone would be killed if he didn't go through with it), because it's meaningless to where the character was at the time when he made that decision.
    But the undeniable fact is if Young had vented the gateroom as soon as the LA arrived only Telford was at risk of dying.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post


      But the undeniable fact is if Young had vented the gateroom as soon as the LA arrived only Telford was at risk of dying.
      Indeed.

      I'm not disagreeing with the argument that Young can't make hard decisions - he obviously has a bee in his bonnet with regards to losing people - I just have a problem with the interpretations of that specific decision (the failed ambush). Basically, I put forward that even the best commander would've done what Young did given the circumstances, because it was the right thing to do for that specific mission, which was to rescue the hostages AND take out the LA, not just the latter.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Tuvok View Post
        True , Young could have taken the time out to explain to them..

        Still. Technically speaking his actions were not illegal which is the main point. As for his pychologically crumbeling that is really an assumption. I have seen no actual facts leading to this. Maybe its the wording that seems wrong?
        None the less I see no proof of this or reason for his removal...
        No facts, how about:
        1. He was livid when he stormed into the command room and yelled and screamed at Park and others and tried to assault Rush. I can understand being upset over the death of one of his men but do you consider this emotional outburst appropriate to a commander in a crisis situation. A psychologically stable commander isn’t going to loose it in the middle of a crisis situation. They are supposed to stay clam and set an example and not go to pieces even if it was only for a short time.

        The transcript follows to refresh your memory.

        CONTROL INTERFACE ROOM. Young storms in and glares at Rush, Brody, Dale Volker and Lisa Park.

        YOUNG: What the hell just happened?

        VOLKER: We still don't know.

        PARK: We're just getting systems back online, then maybe we can analyse ...

        YOUNG (furiously): Screw analyse. Fix it!

        BRODY: We've gotta know what's broken first.

        YOUNG (loudly, sternly): Do it now.

        (The others stare at him, waiting for him to calm down. He turns away, breathing rapidly and fighting his fury. After a few seconds, he turns back to them, still visibly upset.)

        YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

        PARK (appalled): What?!

        (Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

        RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

        (Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

        VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

        (Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

        RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

        (Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

        RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

        (Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.)

        YOUNG: I want you to figure out what's wrong with this ship and fix it. Fix it now.

        (Tetchily Rush slams his notebook onto the console. Young turns his gaze to Brody, who lifts his hands clear of his jacket and steps away. Unnoticed by any of the men, Lisa is still taking in the news of death of Rivers, who was one of her many sources of “reading material”. Young glowers at Brody and Volker for a moment, then leaves the room. Rush watches him go.)

        I used the word hysterical for a moment to describe his outburst. The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it? When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst and attempted assault by Young before in a command crisis situation? Are these the actions of a psychologically stable commander?
        2. Every scene in a TV show is there for a reason. Why were the scenes where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); and where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement and asks: “Are you up for this, Everett?”; included in the episode if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind? How else can this question be interpreted?

        The transcript for the O’Neill scene follows to refresh your memory:

        YOUNG: I need to speak to General O'Neill.

        Not long afterwards, Young is sitting opposite Jack in his office.

        O'NEILL: Second-guessing a decision is a waste of time.

        (Young looks down, embarrassed. Jack stares at him sternly.)

        O'NEILL: I'm not there ... but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should be.

        YOUNG: I-I can't speak to that, sir.

        O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.

        YOUNG: Yes, sir. At the time, I believed that venting the Gateroom would kill both Doctor Rush and Colonel Telford. They deserved a chance.

        O'NEILL: We lost two 302 pilots sent to stop the attack.

        YOUNG: I'm sorry.

        O'NEILL: Colonel Carter knew she'd lose her ship if she tried to save them, but it was the right decision.

        YOUNG (in a whisper): Yes, sir.

        (He lowers his head again, sighing.)

        O'NEILL: Are you up for this, Everett?

        (Young raises his head and gets to his feet.)

        YOUNG: Yes, sir.

        O'NEILL: Because somebody'll take your place if you're not.

        YOUNG: I'm not gonna let anybody take that ship, sir.

        O'NEILL: Then get your ass back there.


        (Nodding, Young leaves the room.)

        You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Imo his excessive and uncontrolled emotional outburst to Park and the others and his attempt to attack Rush; coupled with the inclusion of the scenes where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); and where General O’Neill’s criticizes his decision and asks “Are you up for this, Everett?”; are compelling evidence that he is having a psychological breakdown and that it is an intended part of the show's storyline.

        What alternative explanation do you offer to explain his emotional outburst and attempted assault of Rush and the dramatic reason for the inclusion of the two aforementioned scenes?
        Last edited by Blackhole; 21 June 2010, 11:46 AM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
          ...
          I used the word hysterical for a moment to describe his outburst. The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it? When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst and attempted assault by Young before in a command crisis situation? Are these the actions of a psychologically stable commander?...
          No.
          I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.
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          Comment


            Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
            No.
            I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.
            As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave. And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes. Every minute of a TV show is very valuable and limited. Why did the writers feel it necessary to include both of these scenes? How does it further the story?
            Last edited by Blackhole; 21 June 2010, 12:00 PM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
              No.
              I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.
              Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

              Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

              The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.
              Fuzzy Wuzzy wasnt old,
              Fuzzy Wuzzy gotten bald
              There was Fuzzy no more Wuzzy

              Comment


                Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave. And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes. Every minute of a TV show is very valuable and limited. Why did the writers feel it necessary to include both of these scenes? How does it further the story?
                I've addressed it several times, Blackstone, so don;t be all disingenuous now
                You`ll also note, by use of the RED TEXT, that I was specifically targeting your use of the word hysterical, so, to add to being disingenuous, you`re now moving the goalposts. Yelling at the scientists? He was pissed off and didn't want a bunch of excuses for why someone can't do something - he wanted them to DO IT. Being pissed at Rush for saying - yet again - something callous? That's not hysterical either. Young's got his problems, no argument there, but you are going to near-ridiculous lengths to assert that he's hysterical. Your OWN DEFINITION of hysteria - excessive or uncontrolled emotion? By your own definition, it doesn't fit, as he wasn't excessive (it didn't go on past a yell and he wasn't shrieking or crying or having a panic attack, or you, know, like the one occassion where we HAVE seen hysteria in this show, falling unconscious) nor uncontrolled (he had no problem going on calmly to talk about the pulsar and had no problem at all not yelling when Park told him not to yell.)

                Originally posted by tomstone View Post
                Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

                Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

                The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.
                No one is the right person, and yes, even Young says he's one of those 'not the right people'. What's your point? Please feel free to point out any actual ignorance there
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                Comment


                  Telford is the one who was meant to lead the expedition. So at least one of them was meant to be there, now at least.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                    I've addressed it several times, Blackstone, so don;t be all disingenuous now
                    You`ll also note, by use of the RED TEXT, that I was specifically targeting your use of the word hysterical, so, to add to being disingenuous, you`re now moving the goalposts. Yelling at the scientists? He was pissed off and didn't want a bunch of excuses for why someone can't do something - he wanted them to DO IT. Being pissed at Rush for saying - yet again - something callous? That's not hysterical either. Young's got his problems, no argument there, but you are going to near-ridiculous lengths to assert that he's hysterical. Your OWN DEFINITION of hysteria - excessive or uncontrolled emotion? By your own definition, it doesn't fit, as he wasn't excessive (it didn't go on past a yell and he wasn't shrieking or crying or having a panic attack, or you, know, like the one occassion where we HAVE seen hysteria in this show, falling unconscious) nor uncontrolled (he had no problem going on calmly to talk about the pulsar and had no problem at all not yelling when Park told him not to yell.)
                    Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush reiterated the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier - the invasion should have been over. All subsequent deaths with the exception of Telford would have been unnecessary and preventable. The truth of O'Neill's and now Rush's statement stung Young and he reacted violently. The same type of reaction in the command center, now without provocation, was what had led to his beating of Telford and his stranding of Rush on the planet.

                    Young's inability to sacrifice a man under his command coupled with his fits of uncontrolled rage and anger paint a very sad picture of a very troubled solider with the best of intentions undergoing progressive psychological deterioration. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. It just means he still has some control. When is uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack (particularly when viewed in context with all of his past violence) aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous by downplaying his reaction it is you.

                    Young out of compassion hesitated to immediately vent the gate room. This understandable but tactically catastrophic initial mistake let LA gain a foothold and led to the loss of the ship. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery and a history of violent reactions including attempted murder; gross errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) leading to the loss of the ship aren’t sufficient enough evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state and command ability for you then I don’t know what action ever will be?
                    Last edited by Blackhole; 22 June 2010, 06:45 PM. Reason: Revised for clarity.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                      Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.
                      First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen
                      I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

                      In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

                      Disengenuous would be making this statement:
                      And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
                      when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.
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                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        Telford is the one who was meant to lead the expedition. So at least one of them was meant to be there, now at least.
                        You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

                        Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                          You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

                          Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.
                          That is indeed an interesting question about Telford, and I do agree that something writerish is going to happen to him, for that reason.

                          As for Wray - Wray has been in command. Once during "Justice" and it left her so rattled that her hands shook. Sort of again in "Divided" during the coup, although that was extremely short lived. I believe that there is a time when Wray could handle being a leader. I just don't think that time is now. Huge swipes have been taken at Young's leadership here, but if Wray had been in charge during this current event, I believe that she would have handed over the ship to Kiva (with no goal to get it back) in the hopes that she could simply talk and the woman would go along. I actually have hope that she'll step up at some point and be leadership material, for real, instead of just because her position at IOA grants her that right.
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                            Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                            First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen
                            I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

                            In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

                            Disengenuous would be making this statement:
                            And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
                            when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.
                            I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                              I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.
                              apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that?
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                                Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                                apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that?
                                I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...

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