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Young has psychologically crumbled and needs be removed from command.

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    Blackhole,

    Couldn't Young have told her then explained because of the possible mole issue he was issuing orders neither she nor anyone he didn't expressly authorize would have access to the stones?
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

    "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

    Comment


      Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
      Green...well, an attempt at green

      I'm not sure if you're aware, but most of what you have quoted are the quotes of someone else. Can you please edit your post to either take my name out of those things that I haven't said or remove my name altogether? Thanks
      I have a bad habbit of only keeping the first person i am quoting's name there..

      Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View Post
      We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

      A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.
      Objection your honor..

      Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
      Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.
      That is an interesting view. Young removing himself by inaction. But i doubt many of the mil (especially greer) will stop looking to him, SHOULD they survive, as he is their superior officer.

      Originally posted by jelgate View Post
      I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.
      Double standards exist in all walks of life..
      But as for SGU (a show more about the darkness in life when just trying to survive, over exploratio) it is not the same as SGA/SG1 so to me it should not be based on the same criteria.

      Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
      jelgate,
      It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.
      Very true. Young is stuck with whom he has on hand unlike SGA/SG1 was.. So that alone makes the playing field less level.

      Comment


        Originally posted by garhkal View Post
        I

        Double standards exist in all walks of life..
        But as for SGU (a show more about the darkness in life when just trying to survive, over exploratio) it is not the same as SGA/SG1 so to me it should not be based on the same criteria..
        I know they do but I won't judge of that level. Its not right
        Originally posted by aretood2
        Jelgate is right

        Comment


          Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
          We don't know how much Young tells Rush and Wray routinely anyway. Not telling her about Rush's infiltration mission of the LA was a sensible precaution. If Wray or anyone else she talked to on the ship was also a mole for LA they could have informed Earth of what Rush was doing as soon as they were back on Earth (via the communication stones).
          I'm not saying he should go and tell them every thought that crosses his mind (oh, please don't ). I was referring two the roughly 2,5 seconds it would have taken him to tell Wray he was not actually trying to murder Telford and Rush at the same time (people seem to randomly ignore that about the stone connection) but break the brainwashing. So that she could be devoting her time to something more important than raging against him. I just don't see any reason not to (or, for that matter have TJ on hand for the CPR...) because even if she was also a Lucian Alliance spy, what could she have done? The stoneroom is (hopefully) under guard and attacking him with bare hands... well...
          Or explain certain decisions at least afterwards so that even the non- military trained has a chance at understanding them. And did he ever adress the leaving Rush staranded thing? Because that one is doing more than it's fair share of messing with the civillians minds, for sure. No matter if they like Rush or not .

          Originally posted by jelgate View Post
          In an ideal or normal situation but the Destiny which is constantly having problems we are far from ideal or normal
          Actually, no. In a long term high stress situation it's even more useful (long term=higher payoff).
          You can't tell me that in the few months they are on Destiny he never had time to clear the air with Wray or the other civillians. Not even after the mutiny, while they were going through the void? Come on. He can repeatedly make everyone take time for PT, so he has most surely the time to round them up for a frakking talk!

          Comment


            Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
            That's not what I'm saying. Young has clearly made mistakes. I'm saying in the prior incarnations they commanders had hand picked teams. Young doesn't have that luxury. As such while Young has made mistakes it's not as though he's working with the A-listers who've been training together for this particular mission for months or years. His administration is, of necessity, much more ad hoc than it would have been on SG-1 or SGA.
            How does that affect things? When he asked Brody to vent Telford's room, Brody did it. Young made a decision and the people under his command carried it out. When the LA were coming through the gate, Young told Brody to hold off, and he did. When he told Brody to do it later, Brody told him it was too late.

            In none of these cases would changing the people under him have made any decision. Young is *solely* responsible. The people under his command make no difference.

            To clarify, in SGA, the civilians were in charge, and there were still rumblings by various people about the situation. McKay and his scientists were clearly upset by the military ignoring them and brushing them aside. During the Siege, another Everett basically cut Weir and the civilians out, and Sheppard delivered a line to Everett, (paraphrased) "If you cut Weir out, you'll only alienate the people whose respect she's earned, which is everyone in this city, including me."

            The people don't matter, as long as you take steps to earn their respect, something Young has been bad at... and one of the reasons he needs to be removed from command.

            Young bears direct responsibility for his actions. However, those actions aren't the cause of all their troubles.
            Yes, they are. Remind me again why the LA is still alive and why they have the ship? I seem to recall at the end of Incursion part 2, that it was Young's decisions, and not the fault of anyone else, that led to their presumed execution. *HE* didn't order the gate room vented. *HE* didn't order an assault afterwards to take them out. *HE* didn't order the ambush to kill Kiva and retake the ship. *HE* ordered everyone to surrender. *HE* ordered Scott and Greer out onto the hull.

            Everyone else was perfectly willing to carry out those orders, something that would be unchanged if you took them out and put in an SG-1 or SGA crew instead.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Kelara View Post
              I'm not saying he should go and tell them every thought that crosses his mind (oh, please don't ). I was referring two the roughly 2,5 seconds it would have taken him to tell Wray he was not actually trying to murder Telford and Rush at the same time (people seem to randomly ignore that about the stone connection) but break the brainwashing. So that she could be devoting her time to something more important than raging against him. I just don't see any reason not to (or, for that matter have TJ on hand for the CPR...) because even if she was also a Lucian Alliance spy, what could she have done? The stoneroom is (hopefully) under guard and attacking him with bare hands... well...
              Or explain certain decisions at least afterwards so that even the non- military trained has a chance at understanding them. And did he ever adress the leaving Rush staranded thing? Because that one is doing more than it's fair share of messing with the civillians minds, for sure. No matter if they like Rush or not .
              I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.
                Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

                However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
                  Blackhole,

                  Couldn't Young have told her then explained because of the possible mole issue he was issuing orders neither she nor anyone he didn't expressly authorize would have access to the stones?
                  THere was also the problem that Wray or someone she told could have talked to Telford about what they were doing. Stopping the rotations would have made alot of people unhappy. And the people on Earth are going to wonder what was going on that was so important that the rotations needed to be stopped. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put it together that Young's order may have involved Telford in some manner. I think it was far simpler and safer just not to tell Wray. She does strike me as a bit of a busy body too.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                    Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

                    However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."
                    Dammit, Kai, we're agreeing again! At least to the bolded part. I can safely go right back to disagreeing with your next point, so we are safe
                    sigpic


                    SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Kaiphantom View Post
                      Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

                      However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."
                      I don't think so. He doesn't want them to act natural but to act upset and terrified at what he is doing. A sudden change in their behavior could have alerted Telford that he was going to revive him right away. He also wasn't interested in having to debate with them if they still didn't agree or didn't understand. Besides, he is in command any explanation is a courtesy; he doesn't have to command by committee.
                      Last edited by Blackhole; 19 June 2010, 10:56 AM.

                      Comment


                        Blackhole,

                        Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                        I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.
                        "Theater of threat"? Young put Telford into vacuum until his heart stopped without a defibrilator to bring him back (which is also not guaranteed to work). That wasn't theater.
                        All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

                        "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
                          Blackhole,

                          "Theater of threat"? Young put Telford into vacuum until his heart stopped without a defibrilator to bring him back (which is also not guaranteed to work). That wasn't theater.
                          The theater was that if he didn't talk then he as going to kill him and keep him dead. Not immediately revive him. My assumption is the fear of death that Telford held was integral to breaking the brainwashing. With Teal'c it certainly was.

                          Comment


                            Blackhole,

                            Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                            The theater was that if he didn't talk then he as going to kill him and keep him dead. Not immediately revive him. My assumption is the fear of death that Telford held was integral to breaking the brainwashing. With Teal'c it certainly was.
                            There was a very real possiblity that Telford would not be revived. He would have felt real fear of death when his heart stopped whether the people around him were putting on a good act or not.
                            All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

                            "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
                              Blackhole,

                              There was a very real possiblity that Telford would not be revived. He would have felt real fear of death when his heart stopped whether the people around him were putting on a good act or not.
                              Yes and he would have felt even more fear if he thought Young hated him and wanted him dead and was not just using a tactic to break his brainwashing. Thinking you are going to die and knowing you will be resuscitated immediately would elicit far different terror levels. Brainwashing is psychological and fear is psychological; it stands to reason that fear taken to its ultimate (death) is what breaks the brainwashing. Besides why are you arguing with me? Wray doesn't deserve to always be included in the loop anyway. It Young's call to tell her what he thinks she needs to know whether she like it or not.

                              Comment


                                Blackhole,

                                Originally posted by Blackhole View Post
                                Yes and he would have felt even more fear if he thought Young hated him and wanted him dead and was not just using a tactic to break his brainwashing. Thinking you are going to die and knowing you will be resuscitated immediately would elicit far different terror levels. Brainwashing is psychological and fear is psychological; it stands to reason that fear taken to its ultimate (death) is what breaks the brainwashing. Besides why are you arguing with me? Wray doesn't deserve to always be included in the loop anyway. It Young's call to tell her what he thinks she needs to know whether she like it or not.
                                The attitude of the people around Telford, who was isolated anyway, wouldn't have made that much of an impact. He was dieing in reality regardless of whether or not Scott and Wray were relaxed about what was going on. As such I don't believe people attitude would have made a hairs breath of difference.
                                All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

                                "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

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