Babylon (908)

[Dave Thomer]

Some questions I had, though.
1) This legendary group of rebel Jaffa....where do they get new symbiotes from, once the ones they're carrying mature enough to start taking hosts, and once their children grow old enough to require one for themselves?

2) The Jaffa-dude who they sent back home to that planet....did he take tretonin with him? I mean, I thought he needed to take regular doses of it to survive. It's not a one-time dose, is it? Will he just take another symboite?

1) The Sodan leader mentioned that from time to time they conduct raids on the Goa-uld to get new symbiotes.

2) Presumably they can give one of these symbiotes to the rescued Jaffa. (Tretotin isn't an irreversible thing, is it?)

I'd also say it's likely that Earth will contact the Sodan again, so it's possible that some kind of trade will be opened. Or the Prior will do something to heal the symbiote-less Jaffa.

[ixchup]

Jack always had a reason for his humour. Whether it was to distract an enemy's attention away from his team and onto him, or to defuse a tense situation or a hundred other reasons. There was always a reason. Mitchell's humour - returning to the theme of real people -v- TV characters acting to a specific set of rules we see in all shows - is just the wisecracking for the sake of it leading man.

I just don't get the same sense that this guy is what he's supposed to be as I used to with Jack. Or that I do with Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. When they said or did something, I believe in them utterly. I knew that when Daniel tried to translate something it wasn't because he'd read it in the script two hours earlier but because he'd spent years studying languages. When Jack started shooting, I knew he was competent with a gun because he'd spent years training in the military.

But so far with Mitchell - I see an actor playing a character as scripted. No more, no less. And that's not really a criticism of BB, I hasten to add. It simply means he's doing the same job as any other TV actor in any other show I watch. And that for me is precisely the problem. RDA and everyone else previously involved in the show did something more, elevated it to something I'd never seen before, invested it with that sense of reality, of watching people not characters. Something above and beyond the norm. And it was that that attracted me to SG in the first place. I knew I was watching something superior to everything else that was out there.

I am a lurker here and love reading all of the varied responses to Babylon. I also have to admit my prejudice: I come from Farscape fandom and am not as immersed in the Stargate universe (although I have seen many episodes). I find it fascinating that people are concentrating on comparing Mitchell to O'Neill in terms of Mitchell's competance to lead. I think what Ben Browder and the writers are building is a character of another stripe than O'Neill's cynicism and snark (that I agree is always used as a leadership tool). Someone earlier said that Mitchell is unsure of himself and covers his insecurity and maybe fear by being a wise ass. I like the fact that the man is not perfect and that he is awkward still. Yes, he is supposed to be the Leader of SG-1 and that he was chosen by O'Neill and Landry because he had leadership qualities. I think we are seeing that his qualities are not tactical or strategic (which are more Teal'c and Sam's skills) but people oriented. The man is great with people. He disarms with charm and grace.

Ben is building a layered performance based on his physicality and slightly goofy/gawky persona. And yet, he stood there in front of Haikon like a soldier and did not bend. He does have The Right Stuff and can hold his own. I also think the man is very intelligent and deep. Look at his arguments to the Sodan about freedom and not loosing faith because it is what sustains you when times are hard. Haikon needs to SEE to believe. The other Sodan (based on that brother who ended up at SGC) also seem to be very grounded. Mitchell is a believer in himself and fate as well as a higher power. He sold that well. So he uses his sarcasm to disarm and relax people vs. O'Neill using it to push hard on people.

This was a high quality episode that really gave Ben some physical acting, something he is amazingly good at. The fact that the ep was self-referential is charming to me. Most of Stargate is very boring (sorry guys) because it doesn't deal in deep characterizations (at least in its later years). Everything is usually tied up in an nice ribbon at the end of the ep. This ep left things untied and awkward. Look at Mitchell's face at the end of the ep. It is saying "We're so screwed."

I give this ep an A because it moved me, was exciting, and sexy as all get out.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

Hmmmm... I still need to sit down and rewatch 'Deus Ex Machina' but as fate would have it, I actually watched this one three times last night - family issues. I also haven't had a chance yet to read everyone else's comments like I normally prefer to do before posting my own, but I could get interrupted at any minute and want to post - sorry if I repeat something someone else has said - these are just my two cents, and I'm not sure it's worth that much.

Anyway, this one was quite possibly my favorite episode of the season so far. I'm a big Daniel fan and I've never seen Farscape, so no prejudice pulling me to make this statement - it was simply nice to see a Mitchell episode. And I really liked the character. We've been getting 'glimpses' up til now and it was nice to see something more indepth.

Okay, so, my normal breakdown of stuff...

What I liked:
I'm going to have to limit myself here or I'd list about everything, so...
1. The kids. The little breakaways to see their reactions to Mitchell's training was great. They never said a word but they never had too. I loved it! And I want to see them again. Kinda surprising how such a background character(s) can have such an impact.

2. "Good job, Bones." Grin! Yeah, you know that ruse had to be Mitchell's idea because the whole thing was taken directly from Star Trek's 'Pon Far' episode - wherein Kirk has to battle Spock to the death and McCoy(Bones) injects him with a special drug to make it look like he died. I don't mind it at all when SG steals from other shows, I think it's a great tribute to those shows - but I like it even better when the tribute is a little subtle like this. I didn't click on the simularity until Mitchell called the guy 'Bones'

3. The Sodan may be following the Orii at the moment, but Mitchell (And Daniel and Teal'c) have definitely planted the seeds of doubt. I really want to see how this story line plays out.

What I didn't like:
Not much to say here right now. I didn't actually make notes as I was watching it like I normally do and nothing is coming to mind. I did spot a couple of possible plot holes, which hopefully will be explained in later episodes.
1. How could the captured Sodan warrior return home unless they had some arrangement for him to get regular shipments of Tritonine?

2. Oh, I can't think that his brother is going to be in a very good position when this guy shows up alive and tells them Mitchell is still alive! He just deceived the entire clan and basically circumvented one of their 'laws'... So does the brother not tell them?

3. I would have liked a clearer idea of whether the captured warrior still considered Mitchell an enemy. I know on first viewing I thought he was making a definite threat at the end - but after the subsequent two viewings last night... I'm not so sure. I don't know why but I was left with the impression that, while the guy might consider that they have 'unfinished business' and need to fight it out, that it wouldn't be a fight to the death. There was a hint of mutual respect there that left me going 'hmmmm....'
Okay, so maybe that's not a negative thing. I'm wanting to see how this thread resolves.

Overall grade: A
__
Maj_Cliffhanger

[IMForeman]

I enjoyed it. I liked getting to know Cam a little better. This episode went the longest way in distinguishing him from O'Neill. Jack, would never have gotten through this episode. He just wouldn't have cooperated with the Sodan in training and setting up for a fight. This was Mitchell's story through and through.

I also think some important things were either set up, or touched apon in this story. I think that it's pretty clear that Cam is hiding a devout belief in God himself. He said that "he'd already been there" in response to Haikon's jibe about "when you are facing your own death, maybe you will understand." I think Mitchell had some sort of religious experience when he was in that crashed 302 in Antarctica. That's why he worked so hard to recover. That's why he worked so hard to get into SG-1. That's why he said "Did I mention I'm on a mission from God" in "Avalon." I think that last one was more than just a Blues Brothers reference. Mitchell is working toward a specific goal. Something he had a vision of. We'll see...

-IMF

[IMForeman]

Oh, and people... he's not the Cigarette Smoking Ori!

He's the Cigarette Smoking Prior. There's a distinction.

-IMF

[Mattathias2.0]

Omigod!!! You're right! The guy Mitchell bonded with (I think his name was Jolan) WAS the same guy from Without a Trace, which episode had been on the night before. I kept saying to my son "That guys looks so familiar!" but I couldn't place him.... silly me, I'd only seen him less than 24 hours earlier. Thanks for noticing that, Majorsal. Also, I remember seeing Tony Todd years ago in one or two episodes of Hercules. Even then he played a king or some other head dude. The guy just exudes authority, I guess. And I gotta say, I loved, loved, LOVED watching Mitchell train. Altho it seemed an awful lot to ask of someone who had just been staff-blasted the day before. But I realize the episode spanned a few weeks, so I'm going to go with the asusmption that he at least got to start out slow and work his way up to all that running & fighting!

Tony Todd played Cecrops and King Gilgamesh on Hercules, and also played a guest role on Xena, in "The Lost Mariner."

[akimbo]

Oh, and people... he's not the Cigarette Smoking Ori!

He's the Cigarette Smoking Prior. There's a distinction.

-IMF

Ooops.

Let me go fix that.

[IMForeman]

Ooops.

Let me go fix that.

It's ok... just don't let it happen again.

-IMF

[jckfan55]

Well it was an ok episode.
On the positive side: I liked that we got to see more of Mitchell, though mainly all we had reinforced is that he's a determined guy and he has a sense of humor. (The Teal'c imitation was pretty good.) Although it was kind of cliched, I liked the kids watching Mitchell's progress in the training.

On the down side:
If anyone *didn't* know that they guy training him would be the one fighting him from the get go, I'd be terribly surprised.
Almost no team interaction. Daniel didn't get to do much and Sam spent most of the episode off camera doing her science stuff. Nice delivery by AT on the Dr. Lee line.
Except for one line about not leaving a man behind, there didn't seem to be any urgency about finding Mitchell.
Dr. Lam--I'm sick of her being cranky with General Landry. they need to either deal her problem or drop it. I'm sure they don't want to try to replace Fraiser--who could?--but she's such a cold fish I'd prefer Dr. Warner if I were SG1.

[Uber]

Okay, okay. A few others have talked me off the ledge and I'm now reconsidering my original assessment of Babylon.

As a Cam development story, it was fair...incredibly predictable (I doubt anyone was actually surprised when we learned the guy training Cam would be the one to fight him or that he was related to the man Cam shot) and the drugging idea is as old or older than Star Trek Amok Time...but inasfar as we now know Cam has more depth than a puddle, fine.

I was happy to see take charge Sam at the beginning but all that does is remind me that the leadership issue is still an issue...not at all resolved in my little world. Sure, if Cam were building a team of newbies, fine...but we're talking Sam, Teal'c and Daniel...and it's personally clear to moi that Sam's the one who should be in charge because she's the one with offworld experience and FCOL, she's earned it. Plus there's that nagging character issue of why would someone who lead a team be willing to return as a 2nd...little things like that.

All in all, they should never have had the episode The Ties that Bind and should have moved things around a bit to show Babylon earlier...because I think a Cam development story was more important than there little romp through the stargates in that it would have established Cam's character a little more...though I still see him as just a member of the team who's there to "learn from the best"...

So IMHO, Babylon should have been earlier, The Ties that Bind should NEVER have been aired and this episode should have been a "team working together building chemistry" episode...because right now, like I said earlier, I see no team...just a group of people with matching patches.

[Bobthespirit]

Okay, one thing that's been bothering me about this episode...

If the Sodan exist, why didn't they try to contact them while the gu'ald were a threat? And furthermore, if the Jaffa know about a rebel group of Jaffa that successfully defied the gu'ald, why did they EVER think the gu'ald were all-seeing and impossible to defeat?

A lot of things the Jaffa can do and know seem to contradict other things the Jaffa do. If Bra'tac was able to know that Teal'c was still brainwashed just by grabbing his arm, why didn't he know that guy in Lost City was working for the other side? Stargate needs to work on these little contradictions, they didn't relaly start showing up this blatantly till season seven or so.

Stargate has given the protagnoists too much technology. The existance of Asgard transporters opens up all the same 'Why don't they just..?' scenarios that have always been a problem in Star Trek.

[whatswiththehairtealc]

::awakens from a deep sleep:: wow that was a great nap....uh...i mean episode of Stargate!! seriously what happened. I'm kinda getting bored of this; prior come to a planet, convince local people to woreship the ori. sg 1 finds out and convince them not to. boring!!!! in the begining i was posting in the PRO S9 fourm, but lately i have been dabaling in the this season sucks fourm. COME on lets see some SG1 finds some ancient technology and kicks the heck out of the damn ori. maybe the second part of the season will be better.

[Oreo]

This episode was so terrible it made episodes from season 7-8 look good!!!

[GateAngel]

Now That's What I'm Talking about
I voted pretty good. I knew they had to have an episode coming up in which they showcased Mitchell and I was really worried it would be a let down.

I'm glad my worries were unfounded and I'm glad I finally got an episode where I could feel a connection to Mitchell and really see his character stand out. I admit I did cringe a bit with Star Trek reference Mitchell made because that was waay too much into 'John Crighton' territory. Crighton was always making pop culture references the others on the show didn't get.

The one thing that stood out for me in this episode (besides the very adorable Tatiania Shanks) was that the writers are really enjoying being able to write physical action scenes for their lead military character again. That having someone in that kind of role that is as able to be athletic as Ben Browder gave them something to work with.

I like that Mitchell ended up friends with one brother and enemies with the other. It sets up a nice conflict to visit down the road and gives him more real history and background.

I was also pleased to see that Landry and Lam have found their footing for their characters in this episode, especially Lam who finally projected an image of Carolyn Lam that didn't have any traces of the 'Rommie redux 'that so much of her last few appearances had. Carolyn finally came across as a unique and different person. Very well done on Lexa Doig's part.

I really liked Daniel's concern for Dr. Lee. I think a real friendship has formed between the two men and I can imagine them spending time in the mess hall talking over cups of coffee. Going off on this or that tangent about some ancient artifact or device.

Tony Todd was awesome in this. Frankly IMHO I think he would have made a much more imposing and convincing Gerak than Louis Gosset jr is. Was it my imagination or did William B Davis have no lines whatsoever?


The only thing that bothered me was the opening battle sequence felt a bit forced and contrived. It's like the writers had this great storyline for Mitchell, they just didn't quite know how to get him into the situation they wanted him in. Ok well there is one other thing that bothers me..or rather irritates me for some reason. Sam calling him Cameron. I know they are equal rank and that makes it ok, but it just sounds wrong or off to me for some reason. Funny that Mitchell calling Daniel 'Jackson' doesn't bother me, but Sam calling Mitchell 'Cameron' does.


Overall very good episode. Nice Mitchell showcase.
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Marla Reed,
Articles online at http://scifi.about.com and in print in The Stargate: SG-1 Official Magazine

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[SimilarCadence]

The person that played Lord Haidon was Tony Todd, (it's almost like Lord Rayden from Mortal Kombat).......

Also let me augment my previous post by saying that, when Mitchell was using "Bones" it was almost like their trying to make him into another O'Neill--
Phasers, We can't call it Enterprise?

Tony Todd also played Kurn, Worf's brother on ST:TNG......another Star Trek connection.