Moebius, Part 2 (820)

[Whistler]

i think certain assumptions are being made about what happened and how it would have changed time. Let's look at this sensibly:

- the original team have the original timeline. there was a rebellion and Ra left and the stargate was buried
- they go back and their presence changes pivitol events so that the stargate is taken
- the new team has a changed future because of this. they go back and make sure history happens how it should have and the stargate is buried.
- the new team and daniel may have either died in the fight or after the rebellion they lived out the rest of their lives in seclusion. they would definately not have had children.

so, what is the new timeline:

- the rebellion happened however it happened due to the ventures in to the past
- 7 people from the future lived in the past for varying periods of time


now, some people will jump up and saw the timeline has been altered, and they would be part correct, as the last two weeks have been changed, as there is a ZPM and a tape now. however, nothing else has changed as the pivitol events of history have stayed the same.

i am a strong believer in the principal that if time travel is possible then you couldn't change the future because then you wouldn't be able to travel to the past, so as the past has already happened you can't change it you can only live it. what happens in Moebius is that time is altered then altered back so that instead of time being altered that past is actually what always happened. the people in the past had buried a tape and ZPM so that while they kept their history the same they altered their future. you could argue this is now an alternate timeline where sg-1 didn't return to the past, and that there is a timeline where sg-1 return to the past and never return and one where earth ends up being detsroyed by Apophis, however i rather like to think that things have been restored to how they should always have been and we now know the real reason the people of Egypt not only rebelled against Ra, but were able to drive him away.

Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate, the uprising had occured because the Egyptians revolted originally. This is what had always been the past before Moebius.

After the team was trapped in the past, SG-1, unable to watch Ra enslave these Egyptians, and not able to wait for the Uprising to form normally, took it apon themselves, causing the ripple, killing the original Jack, Sam and Teal'c.

The Second team (The Alternate Mucked Up Timeline team) went back and told Daniel, the only remaining survivor of the original SG-1, about the failure, and brought Alternate Teal'c with them. They changed the timeline by conducting a new uprising which was more successful.

The third team, (a new SG-1 extremely similar to the old one), now exists in their place and these will be the ones that we will see for this and the rest of the series. The SG-1 who we've been watching for the past eight years, all would have died in the past. But then again, whats to say we wont find Original Daniel is stasis on some other planet in Season 9?

[sshspooky]

Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate, the uprising had occured because the Egyptians revolted originally. This is what had always been the past before Moebius.

After the team was trapped in the past, SG-1, unable to watch Ra enslave these Egyptians, and not able to wait for the Uprising to form normally, took it apon themselves, causing the ripple, killing the original Jack, Sam and Teal'c.

The Second team (The Alternate Mucked Up Timeline team) went back and told Daniel, the only remaining survivor of the original SG-1, about the failure, and brought Alternate Teal'c with them. They changed the timeline by conducting a new uprising which was more successful.

The third team, (a new SG-1 extremely similar to the old one), now exists in their place and these will be the ones that we will see for this and the rest of the series. The SG-1 who we've been watching for the past eight years, all would have died in the past. But then again, whats to say we wont find Original Daniel is stasis on some other planet in Season 9?

that's where you're wrong though. your first line "Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate" is totally forgetting 1969, where General Hammond knew to give them the note as that had already happened in the past.

[Madeleine]

The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Wass]

Not a bad episode I would give it 5/6 out of 10 for some reason it I expected more from this episodes but it was much better then part 1. I don’t like time travel episodes because they mess every thing up just like this episode has.

TPTB said once you see this you will understand why we are doing season 9 to be honest I don’t. I thought it was poor season final and Threads should have been the season final it would have been a lot better.

[Dana_Jeanne]

Anyway, I really want to know what happned to those that were left in the past (ie. normal daniel, alt teal'c, carter, jack)...I do hate that they changed things. Hopefully they never went back or summut, or they somehow died in the rebellion and things were unchanged...

As far as I'm concerned as soon as the altSG-1 went back to Egypt and fixed whatever, then the time-line went back to the way it was supposed to be with our orginal team fishing at the pond.

Dana Jeanne

[Dana_Jeanne]

I like your story, Madelaine and I'll stick to it, too.

Dana Jeanne

[Jillybean]

Yeah, it did seem a bit rushed.

And although, in my mind, when Sam said
"I kinda like Daniel"
Jack said:
"I kinda like Daniel too!"

I actually found, for the first time, that I liked Sam and Jack together. They handled it really well. I'm so glad, after Threads I was in despair about the series, but Moebius Parts 1 & 2 pulled it back from the brink

Spoiler:

I am sad about losing Jacob, but again, that's part of what SG-1's all about. I'll miss Jack next season, but I'm really hoping BB's character will shake up the dynamic. I loved seeing the fish in the pond at the end of Moebius, very cute.

So - here's to a successful season nine!

[sshspooky]

The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

that's not a bad way to think about it. time travel episodes bring such confusion but if Star Trek can go back in time and be involved in the past but not change it then so can Stargate!

i think the best way we can look at it is it was an exciting episode that gave us some great alternate reality and guest star moments as well as explained how the rebellion in Egypt happened, and that the timeline was only changed from the dig where they discovered the camera and ZPM onwards. if we look at it in that light, even if some of the elements don't make total sense, i'm sure we can all be happy.

[Fox McCloud]

Perhaps daniel had something to do with the Coverstones for the gate?

Since he was the only one who could translate them.

[Ajayrious]

I really enjoyed this episode, however MORE APOPHIS , MORE RA , MORE REBELLION, MORE ACTION LESS KILLING KAWALSKY,

this is the fourth time this season ive been disapointed with an episode because it promised action and delivered very little, and that doesnt count all the ****ty little episodes at the start of the season which had no action whatsoever.

[sshspooky]

Perhaps daniel had something to do with the Coverstones for the gate?

Since he was the only one who could translate them.

Interesting theory since it would explain why the gate address was for Abydos, since there has never seemed any particularly special connection with that place.

[Fox McCloud]

Relax people. They had to scale back things because of two shows.

Think about the Crew and Cast.

And not about your selfish selves.

Also, try this on for size:

Rebellion wins, they take over stargate.
Ra leaves with lots of slaves
Ra goes to Abydos and plonks them in with the rest of his slaves there that he brought previously through stargate over the years.
Slaves write on walls about how there was a rebellion on earth and how ra was sending slaves to abydos.
Daniel knows where Ra has gone nad makes Coverstone, knowing it will be him who translates it.
Daniel also knows that Abydos is important (Cartouche, Sha'Re, Dead Ra)

5000 years later, Gate is uncovered.
Then happens SG1.

If there had been photographic evidence of rebellion rather than pictographs and hieroglyphs then Daniel wouldve seen himself and gone "WTF!!!11one"
But obviously, they couldnt.

Now the pardox like things, i.e them not having to go back in time because theyve already been back in time (yet if they dont, how do they etc?) is all attributed to the Moebius.

Now, quench on this. How about Jack and Sam hump like rabbits and spread the Ancient gene around teh w0rld.

Would account for Shepard having Jack like qualities

[Keffler]

I really liked it.

The way the connected the start with the finish of Jacks major role on SG-1 (the show not the team). Being on Chulak, convincing Tealc he worships false gods, death of kawalski. Sorta a way of saying goodbye jack i thought.

The fish in the pond, i was like "OMG theres fish in his pond" espaically after they made such a point of saying there was no fish in his pond.

These last five eopisode have been really good i feel, they have all been about arcs rather than stand alone eps, finshing off a lot and yet opening up a lot more. These must be the best 5 eps ive seen of Stargate in a while, they allow for Jacks closer for all hes been fighting for and against, enough for him to move on and leave Sg-1 and the SGC e.g. the jaffa battle for freedom, the destruction of the Goa'uld(or near destruction ), getting enough power to dial Atlantis and get there by ship and his battle agains this feelings for Sam. They showed us what we have all been fighting for for the last 8 years, Tealc's battle for freedom, sam and jacks battle witht here feelings (sort of repeated myself there didnt I)

AT Sam and Daniel were hilarious, there little very non military comments. And sams shiver about the possibilty of having a boyfriend nevermind a fiance (no longer). I would have liked to see Daniel a bit more evil, maybe getting a few more shots off etc.

Did anyone notice they had a different briefing table in part 1? I miss the old table with the black strip, im so gonna have that as a dinig table when i can get hold of one.

Spoiler:

Jacks comment "You better start packing may have been for the fishing trip but im guessing its to open up Sams absence in Season 9 due to the fact of the birth of her baby.

The little bits of change like the fish in the pond open it up for TPTB to bring in any enemy they want because we may not have met them previously or they may have been defeated previously but they arent now the timeline has been changed.

Cant wait for Seaon 9 and the new enemy.

[UlsterBob]

I have to say I was pretty disappointed with Moebius. Too complicated and more than a little dull.

It would have worked much better to have seen what happened to SG1 after the puddlejumper was discovered by the Ja'fa, and then see them start the uprising and escape. Especially more use of Ra and the Horus guards. What was the point in resurrecting these elements from the movie if you're not going to use them?

So there's now three puddlejumpers, three SG1 teams.... errr... doesn't bear thinking about....

[Get Carter]

I had written a whole long post about the time travel thing but it became convoluted and scary.

A couple of ideas.

Either the time line at the end of Moebius is different but incredibly similar looking to what we know. With only those plot points mentioned in the tape (apart from the fish) having definitely happened. in which case anything else is up for grabs. Basically Janet Frasier could be alive. As could Jacob. Although I feel trying to explain that sort of thing would be even more comlicated.

Or

Everything we have ever seen is based on the final Moebius SG-1 with only the fishing scene in threads being wrong, wrong because of another as yet to be seen time travelling incident. Possibly caused by the trip in the daedelus to atlantis, a trip which apparently Carter will be making.

This said, I feel like Homer staring at the word GABBO in the paper - I've not been given enough information to make sense of it. Yet....

Personally I just enjoyed it, enjoyed Jack and his cap, enjoyed Carter pondering if her future self had a boyfriend (although surely in relative terms it should be alternate self?), enjoyed the implied bond-like sex, enoyed GateShip 1, enjoyed the explanation that said GateShip fit inside the Gate not the other way around, enjoyed Daniel's blunt acceptance of his alternate death, I just enjoyed it.