Shades of Grey (318)

[Tyrathraxus]

I was always a bit sad that it was Makepeace who was the NID guy.. along with Maybourne.

Im more aggrieved really that while we never saw Makepeace again, we got a very long redemption arc for Harry. Both were great characters for the show, and while I could believe Maybourne selling out to 'save Earth' I found it very hard to agree with the reasoning about Makepeace.

[Anja]

The moment of surprise was used - the fans were supposed to be sad or angry or whatever!

[lgm89]

I was always a bit sad that it was Makepeace who was the NID guy.. along with Maybourne.

Im more aggrieved really that while we never saw Makepeace again, we got a very long redemption arc for Harry. Both were great characters for the show, and while I could believe Maybourne selling out to 'save Earth' I found it very hard to agree with the reasoning about Makepeace.

Maybourne had a more distinct personality, plus the actor had great chemistry with RDA and while Makepeace was okay, He was pretty much interchangeable with all the other Sg team leaders who popped up over the years, IMO.

[Tyrathraxus]

Im inclined to disagree about Makepeace, but to be honest , Sg-1 always struggled to keep hold of the actors for the other SGC roles. You rarely saw the same leaders for the other SGC units. Hell Ferretti was never seen again after Season 1 and yet he was one of the original Stargate team.

I think Steve Makaj and Makepeace brought a lot to the SGC, and the Surprise to me wasn't there. The fact the Jack went rogue , the fact they brought in Colonel Makepeace (and to be honest.. what is a bet they already KNEW he was guilty), made a big target for the audience on his back. I was actually hoping they were going for a double switch to fool the audience but it never came.

[Laxian of Earth]

So, I am re-watching Stargate (SG-1) ATM and I almost forgot commenting on this one:

I loved this episode (and frankly: For a soldier Jack should have acted like this more often, Hammond should have IMHO supported him (for a General he's quite liberal in views IMHO (He's a freaking Daniel who signed up for the military and was good enough at it to earn promotion to General!)...then again I think Hammond shouldn't have agreed to shut the SGC down at the end of season one! He should have called all SG-Teams together and he should have informed them of the president's decision and then he should have asked for volunteers to go off world (to Daniel's coordinates!), this way they might have freaking captured two motherships right there and then! Hell, they could have gone to another destination to keep fighting the good fight!) and Sam and Teal'c, too (Daniel? No, too much of a bleeding heart, fairness etc. is too ingrained and stealing is always wrong to him...unless you steal from the Goa'uld maybe!))

I always woundered why there were no black-ops in the black-ops program (operations that the SG-Teams don't know about - plausible deniablility (so that allies like the Tok'ra and the Asgard never learn about those black ops, not to mention the Goa'uld) and all that!) and no intelligence gathering missions (why not plant spies among the natives of a lot of worlds to hear some news etc.)...they depended on Tok'ra-Intelligence (who only gave them the bare minimum!) too much!

Hell, there were very few outright strike missions as well (their war was freaking one sided, they only reacted to what the Goa'uld might be doing!)! Thor himself said that the Goa'uld could send a force 100 times the strength of what Apophis had brought to Earth (and that's probably when the Systemlords are holding back to still defend their territories adequately, so that nobody can easily take them over!), which means 200 Motherships (!)...thus Earth was truly in need of superior technology (if you can't match the quantity, which they can't, then they need something that is truly superior!)

greetings LAX

[StargateMillennium]

I loved this episode (and frankly: For a soldier Jack should have acted like this more often, Hammond should have IMHO supported him (for a General he's quite liberal in views IMHO (He's a freaking Daniel who signed up for the military and was good enough at it to earn promotion to General!)...

There are a lot of people in the military like this. While they have openly said Hammond was a bit soft (reference Gen Bauer was an example of someone who was a bit more strict), the military aren’t brutes with guns who believe in victory at any cost. They just tend to air on the side of practicality. Stealing technology and pissing off potential allies is not practical. You’ll get way more help by tolerating their refusal to give tech and making friends.

then again I think Hammond shouldn't have agreed to shut the SGC down at the end of season one! He should have called all SG-Teams together and he should have informed them of the president's decision and then he should have asked for volunteers to go off world (to Daniel's coordinates!), this way they might have freaking captured two motherships right there and then! Hell, they could have gone to another destination to keep fighting the good fight!) and Sam and Teal'c, too (Daniel? No, too much of a bleeding heart, fairness etc. is too ingrained and stealing is always wrong to him...unless you steal from the Goa'uld maybe!))

It wasn’t an agreement. His funding was about to get pulled. Also, none of them at the time even completely believed Daniel’s story. Even in the next ep, SG-1 nearly didn’t go because they were still skeptical about his story. And even if they did send a team that agreed to be potentially court martialed and dishonorably discharged, it’s highly unlikely they could have commandeered those ha’taks. Considering each ha’tak can carry over 2k troops even if every person in the SGC went they’d be horribly outnumbered. Also, at the time, Daniel would’ve been more willing to keep on fighting than any one else considering he just watched Earth get glassed.

I always woundered why there were no black-ops in the black-ops program (operations that the SG-Teams don't know about - plausible deniablility (so that allies like the Tok'ra and the Asgard never learn about those black ops, not to mention the Goa'uld) and all that!) and no intelligence gathering missions (why not plant spies among the natives of a lot of worlds to hear some news etc.)...they depended on Tok'ra-Intelligence (who only gave them the bare minimum!) too much!

What exactly are they going to do with a black ops program? The concept of black ops is essentially when you want to get something done that’ll piss off a lot of people (usually friends and allies sometimes less than friendly people you want to avoid going to war with). So you send them out, celebrate if they succeed and if they fail or get caught you disown and condemn and hunt them down as a show of good faith. The Trust could easily be considered black ops (notice how they never go after the Trust unless they do something that pisses someone else off). Also, the Tau’ri can’t exactly use spies. If they want to get information from locals, they can just ask. And it’s hard to get information from slaves since slaves are kinda meant to be kept under constant watch to prevent escape. Maybe a slave with a communication device but extraction would become impossible. And they’re both unreliable sources of information. It’s like asking a civilian about troop movements. The only good way to get info is by posing as a Goa’uld or a Jaffa and try to work the way up the ranks. The issues is they can detect the presence of a symbiote. Sure if you slap on an outfit with a helmet maybe with a head tattoo they might not pay that close attention to you but the moment you get close to them (which you have to do if you want to infiltrate their ranks) they’ll realize you have no symbiote. The Tok’ra and rebel jaffa are the best source of espionage.

Hell, there were very few outright strike missions as well (their war was freaking one sided, they only reacted to what the Goa'uld might be doing!)! Thor himself said that the Goa'uld could send a force 100 times the strength of what Apophis had brought to Earth (and that's probably when the Systemlords are holding back to still defend their territories adequately, so that nobody can easily take them over!), which means 200 Motherships (!)...thus Earth was truly in need of superior technology (if you can't match the quantity, which they can't, then they need something that is truly superior!)

Strike missions are done with a purpose. There is no purpose to doing a strike mission against the Goa’uld willy nilly. Considering how vast their hold is, even if you run sabotage missions against ship factories, all you really do is piss them off.

[Laxian of Earth]

So outnumbered that they couldn't use choke-points, superior weapons (the staffweapons are even worse in tight quarters) like machineguns with hundreds of rounds, grenades etc.? Hell, Teal'c probably could have vented the sections of the ship they didn't occupy once they've reached the peltak!

What will they do with a Black-Ops-Program? Run NID-Style snatch and grab operations (from offworld bases!) and gathering of important information!

Why can't they? If the language is the problem, then ask Daniel (and others like him!) to teach said language! Otherwise I see no reason why they can't!

If they had intel they'd have targets for strike missions - and if they did use staffweapons only then the Goa'uld would be hard pressed painting the Tau'ri as the culprits (in fact they'd point fingers at each other, especially if they always take a few jaffa, put them on ice and then leave them after the next successfull mission!)

greetings LAX

[StargateMillennium]

So outnumbered that they couldn't use choke-points, superior weapons (the staffweapons are even worse in tight quarters) like machineguns with hundreds of rounds, grenades etc.? Hell, Teal'c probably could have vented the sections of the ship they didn't occupy once they've reached the peltak!

At the time, Teal’c openly stated he didn’t know how to operate a Goa’uld Ha’tak. And while Earth gear held a distinct tactical advantage of jaffa gear, jaffa aren’t paper machae. Numbers do make a difference and we’ve seen plenty situations where jaffa can steam roll Earth forces with the right number and those times involved far fewer than two thousand jaffa.

What will they do with a Black-Ops-Program? Run NID-Style snatch and grab operations (from offworld bases!) and gathering of important information!

Those aren’t black ops. That’s just intel gathering. Black ops is if the government was like “Hey, we want technology but our alien allies won’t give us technology. So we’re going to hire guys from the NID to steal for us technology. But if they get caught, we can tell the SGC to hunt down the ‘rogue operatives’ and save face” Black ops is a covert opt where if things go south the guys in charge disown the people involve and leave them out to dry. Black ops are covert ops where if things go south you can't let the other guys know you were involved.

Why can't they? If the language is the problem, then ask Daniel (and others like him!) to teach said language! Otherwise I see no reason why they can't!

Locals and slaves won’t give good information other than ‘I once saw some jaffa over there’. It’s like me asking you for specific troop movements of your country’s military. They can’t do spies because both Jaffa and Goa’uld can sense the presence and lack of a symbiote. Yeah, if they tossed on suit of armor and kept their distance it could reduce suspicion maybe avoid getting caught for a few hours. But an espionage mission often lasts years. No way the spy never moves within close proximity to another jaffa or Goa’uld in that period of time. So a Tau’ri cannot act as a spy among Goa’uld ranks.

If they had intel they'd have targets for strike missions - and if they did use staffweapons only then the Goa'uld would be hard pressed painting the Tau'ri as the culprits (in fact they'd point fingers at each other, especially if they always take a few jaffa, put them on ice and then leave them after the next successfull mission!)

The question goes back to: for what purpose? You don’t toss lives and equipment into something unless you know for sure it can achieve something of value. So you send in a spec ops team and busted up a Goa’uld weapons depot. Great, that’s like one of a hundred on that planet alone and probably one of thousands of planet across the entire Goa’uld domain. And that's not including the people that will be lost in the process. Your losses are not equaling your returns. It’s like asking you to topple an oak tree by kicking it. Yea, enough kicks over a long enough period of time will eventually knock it over. What you’re getting is not worth the energy going into it. If you had intel like “Hey, there’s a big invasion being prepared on this planet” then you have something worth targeting. All you can really do is sit on the information and see if something worth hitting develops. And that's what they didThe Tok’ra had been running operations like that for thousands of years to no avail. In fact it was so extreme that even offing system lords was doing nothing for a period of time. Not to mention the focus was on finding better technology to defend Earth since winning a war against the Goa'uld in their current condition was impossible. They allocated more resources into finding new technology.

[Laxian of Earth]

They retconned T being unable to fly a Ha'tak (he'd make a ****ty first prime if he can't fly a ship!)

Indeed that's black ops 1o1, that's why I believe that the NID was far from rogue, sadly they never tried again (or they weren't caught - because we never heard about this again!)

Finding technology? Good one, more like "not finding technology" because they didn't manage to optain that much at first (a true military operation would have grabbed really everything, they'd stockpile staff-weapons (maybe even use the internal components in an earth-made shell to have their own energy-weapons at a fraction of the cost that making your own costs!))

greetings LAX

[StargateMillennium]

They retconned T being unable to fly a Ha'tak (he'd make a ****ty first prime if he can't fly a ship!)

Two completely different and unrelated jobs. The piloting a large craft is the job of a helmsman, not your elite warrior. If you want to situate your first prime on a ships, he'd be the commander, not the driver.

Finding technology? Good one, more like "not finding technology" because they didn't manage to optain that much at first (a true military operation would have grabbed really everything, they'd stockpile staff-weapons (maybe even use the internal components in an earth-made shell to have their own energy-weapons at a fraction of the cost that making your own costs!))

They did have a stockpile of staff weapons (a handful at the SGC and more at Area 51). They just didn't use them much. In fact they stocked on a decent amount of Goa'uld tech. The only thing they found useful was the zat. And doing what you suggested is only beneficial in the short run. You are completely dependent on the enemy for your weapons and advancements in the weapons. If they break for whatever reason, you have no idea how to fix them. If you want your reskinned staff to be better like more accurate or fire faster you need to wait until the Goa'uld do that. The staff didn't provide any overwhelming tactical advantage so it was a better option to cart them to Area 51 to study and make their own directed energy weapon. Now they can make them in bulk, control how they advance and develop over time, and you always have someone how knows exactly how they work.

[Laxian of Earth]

Are you telling me that they can't figure out how a staff-weapon works? I see the staffs more as "off the shelf" components, meaning that you can upgrade them etc. (maybe even by adding or tweaking the parts before you put them into a human made shell) but you save a ton of cash by not just having piles of staff-weapons lying around gathering dust!

greetings LAX
ps: I am not saying Teal'c wouldn't be kind of wasted flying a Ha'tak, but we've seen other first primes fly ships so I don't think Teal'c never learned (and later on it wasn't brought up again, so I think it's a retcon that Teal'c says he can't fly one...hell, Bratac could and he was Teal'c's teacher, so I don't think he never showed him!)

[StargateMillennium]

Are you telling me that they can't figure out how a staff-weapon works? I see the staffs more as "off the shelf" components, meaning that you can upgrade them etc. (maybe even by adding or tweaking the parts before you put them into a human made shell) but you save a ton of cash by not just having piles of staff-weapons lying around gathering dust!

They can figure out how they work but that requires dedicated study. Which means tearing the things apart, tweaking features to see what happens, and intentionally breaking things. They can't just tear out the inner workings of a staff, slap an M16 shell over it, and say they know how it works. I can remove every drive in my laptop and put it into a different one and not understand the assembly language inside. If they want directed energy weapons then they should study the staff weapons they got and make their own based on its design. The only reason they would start bringing staffs or reskinned staffs into battle is if it provided some major tactical advantage, which it doesn't. That's why they use zats. Yeah, they have some at Area 51 being studied but it provides immediate returns so they use some of the ones they get their hands on. The staff weapon does not provide the same returns. It was a cheap weapon made to be used in numbers. Yeah, it's a bit more pricey to pump out new guns and ammo but SG teams but they're now better off in a fight.

ps: I am not saying Teal'c wouldn't be kind of wasted flying a Ha'tak, but we've seen other first primes fly ships so I don't think Teal'c never learned (and later on it wasn't brought up again, so I think it's a retcon that Teal'c says he can't fly one...hell, Bratac could and he was Teal'c's teacher, so I don't think he never showed him!)

It depends on the job requirement. We don't know the history of each jaffa. For all we know Bra'tac was once a helmsman when he was younger or maybe at one point of time he was taught. He is much older than Teal'c and Teal'c was later taught how by the Tok'ra. Same with Her'ak. In all likelihood, the First Primes were elites selected from different fields (helmsmen, glider pilots, ground troops) who proved they were capable on the battlefield. The ones who could fly Ha'taks were simply helmsmen before. But there's nothing in the First Prime job description that lists "fly a Ha'tak" as a job requirement.

[Laxian of Earth]

I haven't said so, but IMHO it would be kind of negligent not to teach them so that they can fly a ship if they have to (not teach them to do it well, but enough to get the job done...kind of like teaching your machine-gunner on a Humvee to drive if the driver takes a hit!)

Yes, they should have "broken" staff-weapons (they had enough of them after all) to figure them out and if need be:

Scale them up to make staff-cannons (I bet they didn't have that many of those!) or even arm ships!

greetings LAX

[StargateMillennium]

I haven't said so, but IMHO it would be kind of negligent not to teach them so that they can fly a ship if they have to (not teach them to do it well, but enough to get the job done...kind of like teaching your machine-gunner on a Humvee to drive if the driver takes a hit!)

A better comparison is that not all Navy Seals can pilot ships or aircraft. They're all part of the navy but it's not part of their job so it's not part of their basic training.

Yes, they should have "broken" staff-weapons (they had enough of them after all) to figure them out and if need be:

Scale them up to make staff-cannons (I bet they didn't have that many of those!) or even arm ships!

They did study them, both broken and not-broken. That's how the x699 was born. Energy artillery weapons would be next in line.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

I haven't said so, but IMHO it would be kind of negligent not to teach them so that they can fly a ship if they have to (not teach them to do it well, but enough to get the job done...kind of like teaching your machine-gunner on a Humvee to drive if the driver takes a hit!)

So, in the Air Force, do they teach everyone to fly, on the principal that it would be negligent not to? I don't think so. It's too large an investment (time, training, manpower) for too little return.

Seaboe