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Demons (308)

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    I see.

    I really loved Avatar and Citizen Joe though.
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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      Originally posted by jelgate View Post
      You also tend lose interest after awhile.

      The Ori story always has been very polarizing in fandom. People either hate or love it. I'm the latter given how bad S7 and S8 were
      I am of the opinion that it started slow, but was picking up in the lead-up to the cancellation. The way I have always explained it is that seasons 9 and 10 are really a new show unto itself. It spent time in "introduction mode" where we essentially got thrown a lot of information about this new enemy and all these new mythological based settings that came with it, which slowed down the pacing. It also took some time for the writers to work out how to best present these new ideas. The introduction of Adria, for example, was, in my opinion, a significant improvement as it allowed the Ori to be represented through a consistent face (as opposed to a string of random Priors). Add on the emotional connection she had with Vala and Adria's more dynamic (than a Prior's personality, and the stories started becoming more engaging. I also thoroughly enjoyed Vala becoming a main cast member, but that's hit or miss for many people.

      Unfortunately, I think too many people were unwilling to look at it as a new show that needed time to grow and find itself. Because the Sci fi channel nixed the idea of doing it as a reboot called "Stargate Command," while claiming that they didn't want to lose Sg-1's "winning name," people labeled it "not Sg-1" and could only talk about it in terms of whether or not it continued to be as engaging to them as previous seasons. Meanwhile, if many of us weren't patient with Sg-1's first season or two, we would have missed out on what became a very good show. And, mind you, no matter what one thinks of season 9, I can't imagine there are many who sincerely think it was inferior to season 1. I found season 1 a chore to get through until the last few episodes; season 9 is just a bit rough around the edges.
      Last edited by Xaeden; November 17, 2019, 06:42 AM.

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        As FH hates SamJack, I hate the Ori story line with the passion of a thousand suns. I don't like the fantasy elements (starting with Merlin being an ancient), and I particularly hate the creation of an unbeatable enemy that they then beat. The show suffered badly from villain escalation.

        I'm more or less neutral on the Jack vs. Cam question, and I like Vala as she ultimately became (Momento Mori is one of my favorite episodes). My major problem with seasons 9 and 10 is that I am not a fan of story arcs that take the entire season (or more!) to resolve. I like little bits that continue from episode to episode, and call-backs, but I want each episode to be able to stand on its own.

        Seaboe
        If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

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          Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
          As FH hates SamJack, I hate the Ori story line with the passion of a thousand suns.
          That's a very passionate hate indeed.
          Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
          Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

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            She must hate television these days
            Originally posted by aretood2
            Jelgate is right

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              People dislike Season 1-2 that much?? I agree season 1 has a bunch of throw away episodes but a really solid beginning and ending arc. Season 2 has a bunch of highlight episodes as well. Perhaps less consistent overall, but they lay a good foundation for the next several seasons. Personally I'd watch those over 9, 10 any day.
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              signature art by lunasera

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                Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
                and I particularly hate the creation of an unbeatable enemy that they then beat. The show suffered badly from villain escalation.
                To be fair, that was also the Goa'uld at their inception. Earth lacked an outward ability to tackle a Goa'uld ship for the longest time. The ineffectiveness of existing weaponry against Ori shields was not too different than the ineffectiveness of those naquadah enhanced nuclear weapons that hit Apophis' shields in the season 1 finale. The Goa'uld were an all imposing force who Sg-1 was only able to combat because they used "slippery" tactics (e.g. sneaking aboard ships and destroying them from the inside) and they were only able to do that because there was always some reason why the Goa'uld refrained from launching a full on attack against Earth (the Asgard were replaced by the weapons platform, which remained the reason the Ori held back). That only marginally changed over time with the discovery/development of new technology.

                The Ori were essentially a reset, designed to bring Sg-1 back to those early days. The sudden development of weapons to defeat Ori ships in battle and their quick defeat was, of course, badly handled, but it was badly handled because the cancellation left them no other option but to fast track everything. Had the show been allowed to continue, we could have gotten whole seasons of Sg-1 tackling Ori ships in creative ways (beating them from within, taking over one ship and using it against another, being in a position to use Ancient drones against one, etc.), and when the Asgard stepped in with the development of new anti-Ori shield weapons, those weapons could have been toned down. Meaning, they could've given Earth the ability to slowly do damage to Ori shields, not take them down with in a couple of hits.

                The ascended Ori were gone by the middle of season 2. At that point the threat then became their fanatical followers who were intent on trying continuing on the path that they thought their gods wanted them even in their absence. This opened up the door to several consequences: The stories could have shifted to how the Ori followers were making decisions based on their misinterpretations of the wishes of absent gods and the Ori galaxy could have been opened up for Sg-1 to explore as the threat of the Ori stepping in if they made too large a splash there was gone. I don't, by the way, know that Adria would've taken over (at least not as quickly) had the show not been canceled as the 19th episode was written after the announcement.

                Originally posted by lunasera View Post
                People dislike Season 1-2 that much?? I agree season 1 has a bunch of throw away episodes but a really solid beginning and ending arc. Season 2 has a bunch of highlight episodes as well. Perhaps less consistent overall, but they lay a good foundation for the next several seasons. Personally I'd watch those over 9, 10 any day.
                I am mostly in line with your view. I enjoyed the pilot, the last few episodes of season 1, and I liked season 2 well enough. I used to post on IMDB a lot back in the day. There, I was involved in a constant stream of threads from new viewers asking when the show got good. They all disliked the early episodes (the pilot was often either deemed okay or disliked as well; others thought it was a strong opening that was followed by a dip in quality), and most veteran posters who replied agreed and would tell them to stick it out until X point in the series.

                I would often tell people that, for me, the show had me hooked with those last three episodes of the first season. "There But For the Grace of God," was a good lead-up to the finale, "Politics" I love despite being a clip show because of how angry Kinsey made me (I enjoy a performance that can make me emotionally involved in any way), and the finale was simply amazing at the time. Before that it was a bit of a chore to make my way through the show (some episodes were interesting, but not enough to hook me in). After that finale, though, I had no problem getting through season 2.

                Many people would often say that they had to get through season 2 before the show improved. For me, it has some misses, but I was so jazzed after the finale/premiere episodes that I didn't care.

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                  Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                  I would often tell people that, for me, the show had me hooked with those last three episodes of the first season. "There But For the Grace of God," was a good lead-up to the finale, "Politics" I love despite being a clip show because of how angry Kinsey made me (I enjoy a performance that can make me emotionally involved in any way), and the finale was simply amazing at the time. Before that it was a bit of a chore to make my way through the show (some episodes were interesting, but not enough to hook me in). After that finale, though, I had no problem getting through season 2.

                  Many people would often say that they had to get through season 2 before the show improved. For me, it has some misses, but I was so jazzed after the finale/premiere episodes that I didn't care.
                  Totally agree - I still think that 4 episode arc from TBFTGOG is some of the best SG1 ever done.
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                  signature art by lunasera

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                    Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                    To be fair, that was also the Goa'uld at their inception. Earth lacked an outward ability to tackle a Goa'uld ship for the longest time.
                    IMO, it was a matter of degree. They established right from the get-go that projectile weapons worked against the Goa'uld--not necessarily very well (until the Jaffa armor became ineffective), but they worked. The Ori were an escalation, and one that wasn't IMO necessary. It happens all the time. TPTB create a villain, get tired of it/them and so make them easy to defeat, and then decide to introduce a tougher villain to justify the continuation of the show. When they get tired of the tougher villain, they have to make it/them easy to defeat and come up with yet another one. They justify this in the name of "reality", which is a huge laugh because in real life, the enemy stays the same--it's a matter of increments.

                    But no one on TV, whether writers or watchers, has the patience for real life, so they have to make it tougher and tougher for the immortal heroes.

                    Seaboe
                    If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

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                      Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
                      so they have to make it tougher and tougher for the immortal heroes.

                      Seaboe
                      For partly this reason I wish they had never had the ascension plot - It always felt all over the place to me, and I preferred when things were more rooted in "science" on the show
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                      signature art by lunasera

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                        Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
                        IMO, it was a matter of degree. They established right from the get-go that projectile weapons worked against the Goa'uld--not necessarily very well (until the Jaffa armor became ineffective), but they worked. The Ori were an escalation, and one that wasn't IMO necessary. It happens all the time. TPTB create a villain, get tired of it/them and so make them easy to defeat, and then decide to introduce a tougher villain to justify the continuation of the show. When they get tired of the tougher villain, they have to make it/them easy to defeat and come up with yet another one. They justify this in the name of "reality", which is a huge laugh because in real life, the enemy stays the same--it's a matter of increments.

                        But no one on TV, whether writers or watchers, has the patience for real life, so they have to make it tougher and tougher for the immortal heroes.

                        Seaboe
                        I get your point and I don't blame you for it leaving a bad taste in your mouth since this is often handled poorly by writers. A common issue that comes up in fantasy is that a character will start off fighting a relatively common foe and then work their way up to being pitted against a demon lord or god-type character without receiving an increase in strength. The idea from the writer's perspective is simply that readers won't get as excited by that character continually fighting enemies on the same level, so the stakes must be amplified. Victories then increasingly depend on temporary power-ups or convenient solve-all devices. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a well known example of this (she went from fighting an old vampire to a god and then the source of all evil and proto-vampires that became as easy to kill as common vampires after a short period where they were unkillable), and Stargate does this plenty itself. The conclusion of the Ori arc unfortunately repeated that, but I'm a little more understanding as they had only a few episode notice and a single movie to wrap things up and they couldn't leave the Ori as an unresolved threat since the franchise was expected to continue in its spin-off.

                        The slightly nuanced difference is not in relation how things ended up playing out, but the intention; I think the idea was to do a soft-reset where everything they learned about getting through an enemy ship's shield was out the window, so the show could return to it being about characters trying to combat the enemy by running around with guns and C4 and coming up with crafty ways to cause damage to the enemy.
                        Last edited by Xaeden; November 17, 2019, 06:38 AM.

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