The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Integrabyte]

Remember the Atlantis expedition is a different ball-game. You may not get the brightest and best, because some of those people may not have wanted to give up everything on what might be a one-way trip/suicide mission.
Shep was recruited because of his ability with Ancient tech. He was taken on the mission because of his ability wih ancient tech might be useful. The only reason he ended up leading was because there was no-one else who out-ranked him.
What special thing does Mitchell bring that they could throw out the rule book for? Are we seriously to believe there was no-one on Earth who could have been a better recruit than Mitchell?
Seriously?

No NEW character introduced in that manner would have been qualified. About Sheppard, that's just something to take our attention away. What Weir says "...but Sheppard can do it naturally" is similar to Walter's line when he talks about CAM as being a hero and the most decorated officer, yadda, yadda. I did not really pay attention to CAM because Vala made sure to distract me all the time from these issues.

[smurf]

by that rule, yes, sam hands down (and that's the way i like it). but it couldn't be sam (hypothetically), pulling in a full bird CO from another team would work.

Someone with the rank, and a decent amount gate experience would have been enough. By all means give Mitchell command of SG-32(or whatever) so he can learn. But this team, SG-1, is the main first contact team, by now it should be a wholly professional, experienced outfit.

No NEW character introduced in that manner would have been qualified. About Sheppard, that's just something to take our attention away. What Weir says "...but Sheppard can do it naturally" is similar to Walter's line when he talks about CAM as being a hero and the most decorated officer, yadda, yadda. I did not really pay attention to CAM because Vala made sure to distract me all the time from these issues.

You mean introduced in Shep's way? Or am I getting confused?
Assuming you mean in Shep's way. You are forgetting a few things so I will reiterate.
Shep was asked to join the expedition, because he had something they needed.
Shep was not expected to lead anyone. In fact, if I remember correctly, Col. Sumner(?) didn't particularly want him on the recon mission.
Most importantly; Shep only became the leader, because there was no other choice. If he joined SG-1 and there was no other choice on Earth (or even just in the SGC) then, logically, he would have ended up leader there as well.

The ability to use ancient tech naturally gave him an in on the expedition. Nothing else. If everyone had lived he would have probably just been used as the useful tool to turn on the ancient tech.
Weir is also the expedition's leader, so her opinion carries more weight. Walter is the guy in front of the dialing computer. I like Walter, but I don't think his opinion of a hero should be used when deciding who should be on the SGC's premiere team.

If you mean no new character introduced in Mitchell's manner would have qualified. Then I whole-heartedly agree.

[Uber]

No NEW character introduced in that manner would have been qualified. About Sheppard, that's just something to take our attention away. What Weir says "...but Sheppard can do it naturally" is similar to Walter's line when he talks about CAM as being a hero and the most decorated officer, yadda, yadda. I did not really pay attention to CAM because Vala made sure to distract me all the time from these issues.

Ergo, they shouldn't have tried.

They should have introduced him as a Major who had temporary command of the team until Carter returned. Shoehorning him into a position he was not qualified for instead of maintaining the internal logic of the show was IMHO one of the largest nails hammered in the series' coffin.

[ReganX]

Do we know anyone who was qualified?

The existing SG team leaders and some of the existing members would have been better suited to and more qualified for command, and they and the officers that were selected for the training course to prepare them to join an SG team would have been better candidates for membership of SG-1.

[Skydiver]

i think, regarding 'leader' of the team, well in the real world, the new leader would have been picked from an existing team. SG-13 for example is the closest we had on the show (colonel dixon, i would have loved him)

tv show budget practicality means that there is a distinct lack of 'real' supporting characters that could have stepped in.

IMHO, they could have done things two ways

Experienced colonel mitchell who was a leader of another team, who was injured in the antarctic (remember the pilot's briefing from fragile balance? they coulda cgi'd him in there, had him knowing about the project but have had him choose, pilot over field team) and then given him the creds to lead the team

He could have been wide eyed major mitchell, crack pilot who was injured and pulled himself back up and got himself back into fighting shape and joined the team.

But they tried to have it both ways. mister wide eyed innocence AND mister experienced leader. He was created with a fatal flaw and was written to be too much at the same time and it just made him all that more u nbelievable

If the writers had just have chosen ONE characterization and stuck with it, Mitch would have worked better

[Skydiver]

colonel dixon, colonel reynolds are both existing officers that could have been used had they wanted to give those men starring roles. However i think 'reality' fell victim to stunt casting and 'oooh, we love ben, he's so great, we just HAVE to have him....quick, make him a role.

The powers that be wanted ben and his fan base. and they made the show fit him

[Skydiver]

IIRC, shep came into the mix simply as jack's pilot. officer given a job to do. then they found out that he coudl run the chair and he was included in the mission solely based on his genetics and his ability to run ancient tech.

the leadership role is something he fell into after sumner was killed. Shep was the highest ranking survivor, thus he became the military leader

[ReganX]

No NEW character introduced in that manner would have been qualified. About Sheppard, that's just something to take our attention away. What Weir says "...but Sheppard can do it naturally" is similar to Walter's line when he talks about CAM as being a hero and the most decorated officer, yadda, yadda. I did not really pay attention to CAM because Vala made sure to distract me all the time from these issues.

Why not?

There were nearly thirty SG teams at that point, and we had only met a few of them. Mitchell could very easily have been introduced as somebody who had several years of experience on an SG team, as member or even as leader. Instead TPTB chose to have him as somebody who got a place on SG-1 because he decided that he deserved it and command by default.

Hardly an auspicious beginning.

The SGC had been running for eight years when Mitchell showed up. If the program had been just starting out then an inexperienced officer may have had to be given command but by Season Nine, there was no reason and no excuse for putting an inexperienced newcomer in command of any team, let alone the flagship team.

Frankly, I think it's an extremely poor reflection on Landry that he chose to put Mitchell in command under the circumstances and an even poorer reflection that he left him in command, despite the fact that a far more experienced, qualified and suitable candidate was readily available.

With Sheppard, he had to assume the position of military leader on Atlantis because he was the highest ranking officer available after Colonel Sumner's death.

Mitchell's situation is very different.

[AGateFan]

colonel dixon, colonel reynolds are both existing officers that could have been used had they wanted to give those men starring roles. However i think 'reality' fell victim to stunt casting and 'oooh, we love ben, he's so great, we just HAVE to have him....quick, make him a role.

The powers that be wanted ben and his fan base. and they made the show fit him

They still could have made him someone who had lead or been a 2IC on another Gate team. Its not like we have met every member of every gate team. If they wanted to bring him in and just had to put him in charge. Then you make Landry say something like he doesnt feel comfortable with a Lt Col in charge of an offworld team and Col Mitchell has been doing a good job on SG-whatever and so I am moving him over to command SG-1. Then you have the team be a bit resistant but maybe they know him so its like the Makepeace thing.

The better solution of course is to bring him in as major Mitchell from whatever SG team who is being assigned to SG-1 because Landry perfers the 4 man team. Mitchell takes charge of SG-1 while Carter is TDY someplace (hopefully someplace interesting, like with the asgard).

But instead they chose to make an unbelievable character who gets rewarded for doing nothing that several dozen other pilots did. They invent a brand new scene for Lost City that doesnt fit with the timing of the real events and give him an award that is far beyond anything he deserved. They gave him no special skills and no common SG knowlege except reading. They didnt even give him a higher rank. They gave him nothing. They threw him in the show and then they promptly forgot about him for a guest star. Then when they remembered him they made him such a spaz you couldnt really tell what he was going to do next. Thats ok for John Crichton as that guy was supposed to be a fish out of water, for Mitchell it was just sad. And the fact that no quality people in the SGC applied to be on SG-1 when he was trying to put it together is insulting also sad and insulting to Mitchell, the SGC and the USAF.

[Shipperahoy]

Well with giving Mitchell the same rank as Carter and establishing no clear chain of command they were trying to play every angle. They didn't want to upset the fans who think Sam should have gotten the leadership position now that Jack is gone and they didn't want to put Ben Browder as second fiddle and tick off the new fans that were tuning in because of him and Claudia. Plus Mitchell's a hero and the hero simply can't play second string.

[AGateFan]

Well with giving Mitchell the same rank as Carter and establishing no clear chain of command they were trying to play every angle. They didn't want to upset the fans who think Sam should have gotten the leadership position now that Jack is gone and they didn't want to put Ben Browder as second fiddle and tick off the new fans that were tuning in because of him and Claudia. Plus Mitchell's a hero and the hero simply can't play second string.

But see thats the problem. Because no matter what they did and what rank they gave the character he was still always going to be second string to the characters that have been on SG-1 for 8 years. He would have still been the "new guy" that the Stargate fans dont know no matter what they did with him. By ignoring that, by acting like he is THE hero of a show that already had long loved heros was a mistake.

[RealmOfX]

Well with giving Mitchell the same rank as Carter and establishing no clear chain of command they were trying to play every angle. They didn't want to upset the fans who think Sam should have gotten the leadership position now that Jack is gone and they didn't want to put Ben Browder as second fiddle and tick off the new fans that were tuning in because of him and Claudia. Plus Mitchell's a hero and the hero simply can't play second string.

PSSST!! Sam already WAS the leader of SG-1

(which I know you already know, just musta been a slip of the pen keyboard )

[RealmOfX]

But see thats the problem. Because no matter what they did and what rank they gave the character he was still always going to be second string to the characters that have been on SG-1 for 8 years. He would have still been the "new guy" that the Stargate fans dont know no matter what they did with him. By ignoring that, by acting like he is THE hero of a show that already had long loved heros was a mistake.

A very Very VERY BIG mistake !!

[Skydiver]

by value of hindsight, and acknowledging that there are folks that will never accept cam just like there are folks that will never accept jonas...by and large, the harder they pushed the character, the harder the fans pushed back.

instead of selling us on cameron, what if they'd have just concentrated on making him able to stand on his own and let us accept him?

IMHO, they just didn't look ahead. Coop has never really looked ahead at anything he's done. the Ori, with some forethought could have been good. vala, had they looked at her sustainability from her first viewing, could have been more acceptible to more.

coop has a bad habit of getting caught up in the 'here and now' and forgetting to remember that part of his job is to look 6 months down the line all the time

[ReganX]

Well with giving Mitchell the same rank as Carter and establishing no clear chain of command they were trying to play every angle. They didn't want to upset the fans who think Sam should have gotten the leadership position now that Jack is gone and they didn't want to put Ben Browder as second fiddle and tick off the new fans that were tuning in because of him and Claudia. Plus Mitchell's a hero and the hero simply can't play second string.

You think that TPTB thought that BB's fans wouldn't bother watching him in Stargate unless he was the lead?

Would it really bother the BB fans here if he had been brought onboard as a member of the team and cast rather than as the lead? Would you still be watching?