S10: Critique & Contemplation

[KayLyne]

If he was already a part of the SG program then we would have seen him. I think you guys take Proving Ground way to seriously

There were many SG teams that we heard about, but never saw. The one we really only saw the most were the SG-3 marines. They could have had Cam as being on one of those never-seen teams as part of his background and then moved up to lead SG-1 when the position became available. The 'coming in cold' as a newbie never having seen the gate and all of a sudden leading the premiere team was ludicrous.

I put absolutely NO stock in Proving Ground, because those four were newbies right out of the academy. It was showing the introduction of how the program was evolving. The Stargate program had previously been putting already experienced soldiers into the program. In PG they were beginning the training of cadets from the Academy. Even these newbies had the proper training on gate travel and combat before they actually went through the gate.

[Crazedwraith]

If you want an example of an inexperience snarky maverick gate traveller who was written in well. Look to John Sheppard. (Ironically originally supposed to be played by Ben Browder but he was busy with the Peacekeeper Wars)

His recklessness and disregard for orders is actually brought up negatively by Jack, leads to Sumner's disapproval of him and actually causes problems and conflict in 'Hot Zone'

But we accept his being written in because we see him doing cool stuff with Jack in the opening and there's the in-universe excuse that he can use ancient technology really well. And we buy it.

Contrast with Cam. Who's similar reason for being written in is... Jack felt sorry for him after he crashed his plane. which for some reason everyone things is an awesome thing to do. See the difference?

[poundpuppy29]

Sheppard wasn't the new lead in old show he was the new lead in new show very different IMHO the point I am trying to make you guys had too much conditions/expectations on Cam. There was no way to please some of you. He had to be a perfect character and that would have been boring the way you guys nit pick he did nothing right.

[fems]

Sheppard wasn't the new lead in old show he was the new lead in new show very different IMHO the point I am trying to make you guys had too much conditions/expectations on Cam. There was no way to please some of you. He had to be a perfect character and that would have been boring the way you guys nit pick he did nothing right.

Um, no. TPTB did nothing right when it came to creating the character. That's where it all went wrong, the rest just follows. Naturally he makes bad decisions and risks the lives of his teammates over and over again because he has no gate/ground combat experience! In a way TPTB were actually kind of consistent in that regard.

[poundpuppy29]

The way you guys criticize him in this thread proves even when he did something right you pick like how he saved Sam in Flesh and Blood. I don't think anything he does is right he can never please you because you resent him because in your mind he shouldn't be the leader because he isn't the perfect soldier you wanted you had unrealistic conditions on how he should be this isn't about Cam this is about you. You won't accept a character that has flaws everybody has flaws no body is perfect but you expect him to be even though no one is.

I won't be on again till monday so I will see you then

[hedwig]

The way you guys criticize him in this thread proves even when he did something right you pick like how he saved Sam in Flesh and Blood. I don't think anything he does is right he can never please you because you resent him because in your mind he shouldn't be the leader because he isn't the perfect soldier you wanted you had unrealistic conditions on how he should be this isn't about Cam this is about you. You won't accept a character that has flaws everybody has flaws no body is perfect but you expect him to be even though no one is.

I won't be on again till monday so I will see you then

Well, ... the title of the thread is "S10: Critique & Contemplation". Therefore, anyone who wants to criticize anything in Season 10 is welcome to do so. The title does not, however, include criticizing other forum members for their opinions, but I've noticed that's all you seem able to do of late. And when you do that, others have responded in the same manner you started. Can you please keep your comments related to the thread topic and not on the other forum members?

In addition, ... and yet again ... nobody here is saying that any other team member is perfect and has no flaws. We haven't really been discussing other team members. Shall we discuss Daniel's flaws? Or Sam's flaws? Or Teal'c's flaws? Or Vala's flaws? Or Landry's flaws? Would you feel any better about doing that?

[KayLyne]

In addition, ... and yet again ... nobody here is saying that any other team member is perfect and has no flaws. We haven't really been discussing other team members. Shall we discuss Daniel's flaws? Or Sam's flaws? Or Teal'c's flaws? Or Vala's flaws? Or Landry's flaws? Would you feel any better about doing that?

A very valid point!

We had eight seasons to learn and endure the flaws of Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. I'm sure if you look at discussions from those early episodes (especially season 1), you'll see how the flaws from all of those characters were pointed out and criticized as well, and how the writers were able to write out or smooth out the glaring non-realistic points for each character by season 2.

Since this is discussion/critique for Season 10 - and by this time we've already had a full season to learn about the glaring flaws of Cam, Vala and Landry. However, it seemed that the writers had absolutely no desire to fix those obvious flaws in Cam in his second season. They did for Vala. Maybe it was only because of CB's pregnancy and having to switch the storyline a bit, but they were able to turn Vala into more of a believable character. They could easily have added some more of a believable backstory for Cam in this season.

[jckfan55]

Um, no. TPTB did nothing right when it came to creating the character. That's where it all went wrong, the rest just follows. Naturally he makes bad decisions and risks the lives of his teammates over and over again because he has no gate/ground combat experience! In a way TPTB were actually kind of consistent in that regard.

Yes. I know the writers didn't want to do what they thought would be the same this as with JOnas--taking time to win the team over, but really, if you're going to bring in a guy with zero gate experience there should be a learning curve.
When Cam says in his first episode he wants to learn from the best, it would not be unreasonable to actually expect him to learn something over time.

I didn't like the way Daniel was written a lot of the time in S9 & 10 either.

[suse]

All right, if you're going to be like that, I think it's you that isn't interested in discussing anything that doesn't conform to your opinion. Have you noticed how this thread used to have a lot more posters? Have you noticed that only the ones that agree with you have remained (and only a handful)? Have you noticed that GW is largely derided on other sites because of the attitude of a certain group of hardcore fans (yeah, you) that simply must have their voice heard and jump all over anyone who doesn't agree with them? I haven't tried to convert you to my opinion, all I've tried to do was offer another explanation. All I seem to get from you is

Wow. Just...wow. Personal attack much? I've seen about the same on other sites. Or much much MUCH worse. Mind you, I don't check out all the sites. I've seen some that would make my hair straighten.

I've posted on this thread (on and off) for a couple of years. I have been a strong supporter of Sam as the leader of SG-1 and was vocal (not only on this thread) about Cam replacing her. Just because I don't hate Cam doesn't make me any less of a fan of Sam. She left SG-1. Then she left her next assignment as head of R & D to take a position on a team lead by him. That is canon. I didn't see her make a big deal about it, nor attack Cam, and I don't see any reason why I should either. You obviously feel different, which is your right

What I see as the problem is *Sam* didn't make those decisions. It was the writers/the powers that be (which includes producers and MGM and skiffy/syfy). WHY was it decided Mitchell had to lead? Was it a requirement that an American be the show's lead? Why could he not be the show's lead but still be lead by Sam teamwise? Why was he written in a way that made him not leadership material *for this particular team* if at all? He could have done most of what he did as 2IC.

Why was Vala written as a slaving/'whorelette'-ing/dominatrix clothed/sexually harassing sneakthief? (I didn't mind the sneakthief part.)Why, when they knew in very earl S9 they wanted her back in a more permanent capacity in S10? When S10 rolled around they had to tone her down drastically (Joseph Mallozzi even admitted to it) to make it work.

Oops. Well, it it makes things *fun* by all means, lets ignore canon.

[Melora]

So… having a completely unrealistic back story makes Cam interesting? Who’d have thought? But that’s your prerogative if you feel that way.

I have to say that I found the writing for Cam to be both unrealistic and frankly boring. Unfortunately, he got even more boring the longer he was on the show. I’ll admit that I always thought he was rather cute, but more so in a clichéd science fiction action-hero cardboard cutout kind of way. He was usually mind-numbingly boring, except when he was uttering the most hilariously melodramatic lines, such as:

“I'm not saying we should give up. I'll fight to my dying breath. I just think we need a new plan. A damn good one.”

Classic.


I can’t believe this thread has been resurrected. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know it hasn’t been forgotten years and years and years after the show has ended. The sad thing is the debates, discussion, and arguments on this thread were always infinitely more interesting than the show in the last couple of seasons. I don’t miss those seasons of the show at all, but I sure have a lot of nostalgia for this thread.

[gateraid]

If you post an opinion with something I happen to agree with, I'll happily agree with it. Thus far, you haven't. Real discussions tend to go that way. Can you say the same?

Yep, considering the number of things I've stated I've agreed with you about already.

Actually, I have. But that's only because there are far fewer posters around GW these days since there's not much new to talk about.



This question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and so has no place here. But I'll answer it anyway.

I don't bother with any site that slams GW; it isn't worth my time. If they have nothing better to do than slam (deride) others, they are not the people I want to associate with. Besides, life is too short to keep indulging in pity parties on other sites because they think people don't listen to them. Plus, I'd say those others are every bit as much hardcore as you've just accused us of being.

In actuality, I don't give a fig if you agree with me or not. That isn't why I'm posting anything here. As I've read these posts, people are simply trying to explain why they feel the way they do and are not dismissing your opinions or trying to convince you otherwise. As has been clearly stated in other posts, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Would you be hurling out your accusations or barbs or sarcasm in an actual debate when someone disagrees with your opinion? That's what a debate is for, after all. To discuss differing opinions - which often get rather heated.

If you're trying to convince others here to agree with your opinion, you should have tried it a couple of years back when there were far more people here who would have agreed with you. That's when the owner of the site stepped in and forced people to either leave or start being nicer to others instead of slamming them, insulting them, using sarcasm to demean them to "WIN".



I don't recall anyone accusing you of denying either of these things. And actually, all three of the remaining members of SG1 left, and Cam dragged them all back because he just had to "learn from" the best of the best. He said nothing about leading them, regardless of that being where he wound up.



What Sam did or did not do isn't an issue here. The issue has been about the way Sam was replaced as lead of SG1. You feel it was fine (no one has denied your right to feel this way). Others feel it wasn't. It's as simple as that. No need to get so offended that no one (yet) has agreed with your opinions. That's life after all.

Who said I was offended heddy?

I disagree. All I wanted was Cam to be "realistic", with a background to fit how they were writing his situation. All of the other main characters had backgrounds to fit their purpose of being in the program. They didn't need a new flashy & flamboyant leader to make things exciting. None of the team members were flashy or flamboyant in the first 8 seasons. It was the team interaction and the adventures they went on that made things exciting and realistic (at least as realistic as you can be with having aliens in your show).

IMO, it was because they had the boring story of the Ori coming up that they thought they needed to change things from an interesting "exploring team of realistic people" show to a general "flashy inexperienced new 'leader' not playing well with others" show.

I think if they'd realised they were going to be renewed for a ninth season, then its likely they would have blooded a new member in s8 instead of s9. We might have gotten someone from within the SG programme in the that scenario, and they could have stepped up in Carters absence. But that's just a guess.

Jack was the action star the first 5 seasons the anti hero the one who didn't always follow orders Cam had to be different than him and I did not find the Ori Storyline boring at all they were scarier than the Gou'ald to me who were very predictable IMHO

Like Cam, I found the Ori to suffer from a bad introduction (read: incredibly boring and ill-advised). I initially viewed it as an attack on religion, although in the end it just seemed like they were the Gou'ald with more powers.

But when it came down to it, Jack always trusted the rest of his team and their opinions. Cam, who had no previous gate experience (except the laughingly absurd premise that he knew every single detail of every previous mission from the past 8 years before his arrival), didn't trust those whom he fought so hard to get back together as a team (which was also due to his giddy fanboy complex)

The 'not trusting' thing was not an impression I got in terms of his relations with other characters. What was the best example of this for you?

Yeah, Jack was an experienced and mature leader, Cam wasn't. No one is saying they had to be the same but it would have been preferable if Cam had at least been somewhat realistic. Don't forget that the show was popular for eight seasons with more or less one format (military, exploration, science, mythology were all aspects of that) and just because RDA left doesn't mean they had to turn it upside down and make a mockery of the show, by ignoring the military part and the team interactions.

Again, I'm not trying to defend their decision, but I assume they decided to clean house (so to speak) was precisely because the show had been on for eight years. There wasn't a lot more we could learn about 'our' characters, or even our traditional foes. Excluding X-Files, seven years seems to be the longevity of most sci-fi shows (although the modern Dr Who looks like it might give SG-1 a run for its money) due to plots becoming stale and production demands (I'm not saying that was the case here, but production costs generally trend upwards over time)

I also don't get why TPTB felt it necessary to make BB's character eight years younger than he was, thereby making him the youngest of the group (and yet he called his team "kids" once, just like Jack) and worse, too young for his actual rank. He didn't even have the time in service to be a lieutenant colonel...

He was younger than BB? Lolz, that's a bit silly on their part. As for the time in service thing, I assume, like Carter, he was nominated for accellerated promotion (her transition from Major to Colonel was swift)

I see that you're reading minds again.

The kind of character I wanted to see was one that fit in with the canon of the show which was a mixture of action, adventure, military, science, mythology, with some pathos and humour thrown in for good measure. A character that had experience of being part of the Stargate programme and had been through the training that had been mentioned in previous episodes of the show. If he was to be leader of the flagship team, he should have come from another team and not from another field of the military.
I wouldn't have minded him being reckless if the writers had given a good reason for it.
When Jonas joined the show, it took many episodes for the team to accept him, especially Jack. With Mitchell we get Walter and co. fanboy-ing him, telling us what a wonderful guy he is. I don't want to hear how great he is, I want to see it.
As to the problem with the Ori, all I see is the next level of false gods. It's the Goa'uld but bigger and badder, but not scarier. Instead of the team working out how to beat the baddies, we now have them going on a treasure hunt looking for stuff the Ancients had left lying around the galaxy. This is why I found the Ori boring.

I'm glad you brought up Jonas's introduction. I guess it was a bit of fake drama, given that he was in the credits so ultimately they would accept him, but I thought it worked well. Even Carter was cold with him, which took me a little by surprise (loved their dynamic by the end of the season though). I guess they couldn't go down that path with Cam because he was in command and it would make the other characters look petty *shrugs*

If you want an example of an inexperience snarky maverick gate traveller who was written in well. Look to John Sheppard. (Ironically originally supposed to be played by Ben Browder but he was busy with the Peacekeeper Wars)

His recklessness and disregard for orders is actually brought up negatively by Jack, leads to Sumner's disapproval of him and actually causes problems and conflict in 'Hot Zone'

But we accept his being written in because we see him doing cool stuff with Jack in the opening and there's the in-universe excuse that he can use ancient technology really well. And we buy it.

Contrast with Cam. Who's similar reason for being written in is... Jack felt sorry for him after he crashed his plane. which for some reason everyone things is an awesome thing to do. See the difference?

Well, he didn't crash it per se, it was hit with a missile meant for Bra'tac's ship, which is probably why everyone thought it was awesome and why the original SG-1 said they owed their lives to him. Personally, I thought it cheapened the awesomeness of The Lost City, but I might be alone in that.

It's possible Jack saw the determination in Cam during his recovery (its one of the things they harken back to during the sword fight) and reassigned him based on that (or recommended it to Landry, or whatever the process was), but there isn't really enough information to reach a reliable conclusion

Well, ... the title of the thread is "S10: Critique & Contemplation". Therefore, anyone who wants to criticize anything in Season 10 is welcome to do so. The title does not, however, include criticizing other forum members for their opinions, but I've noticed that's all you seem able to do of late. And when you do that, others have responded in the same manner you started. Can you please keep your comments related to the thread topic and not on the other forum members?

In addition, ... and yet again ... nobody here is saying that any other team member is perfect and has no flaws. We haven't really been discussing other team members. Shall we discuss Daniel's flaws? Or Sam's flaws? Or Teal'c's flaws? Or Vala's flaws? Or Landry's flaws? Would you feel any better about doing that?

I would. Did anyone else do a giant *headdesk* during Daniel's "the time to fight is now" speechifying to Morgan Le Fay in TPP? Talk about OTT dialogue I liked Sam in that ep (the way she 'managed' McKay) and thought that was realistic of someone of her rank and area of expertise (even if it was a little OOC) and wondered why they didn't write her like that more often.

In general, I felt the Jaffa Council storyline was a flop, although without it there wouldn't have been much for Teal'C to do. He suffered in the same way Teyla did on SGA - once they brought in another alien, his (main) reason for being on the team was lost

[gateraid]

...continued for length:

A very valid point!

We had eight seasons to learn and endure the flaws of Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. I'm sure if you look at discussions from those early episodes (especially season 1), you'll see how the flaws from all of those characters were pointed out and criticized as well, and how the writers were able to write out or smooth out the glaring non-realistic points for each character by season 2.

Since this is discussion/critique for Season 10 - and by this time we've already had a full season to learn about the glaring flaws of Cam, Vala and Landry. However, it seemed that the writers had absolutely no desire to fix those obvious flaws in Cam in his second season. They did for Vala. Maybe it was only because of CB's pregnancy and having to switch the storyline a bit, but they were able to turn Vala into more of a believable character. They could easily have added some more of a believable backstory for Cam in this season.

I understood they toned Vala down somewhat due to the fan and studio reaction, but I could quite easily be wrong about that. I'm glad they did. Her OTT-ness wouldn't have worked as a full-time cast member

Yes. I know the writers didn't want to do what they thought would be the same this as with JOnas--taking time to win the team over, but really, if you're going to bring in a guy with zero gate experience there should be a learning curve.
When Cam says in his first episode he wants to learn from the best, it would not be unreasonable to actually expect him to learn something over time.

I didn't like the way Daniel was written a lot of the time in S9 & 10 either.

I agree the learning curve was notably absent. Perhaps in that time he actually did read the mission reports instead of the cover pages?

Wow. Just...wow. Personal attack much? I've seen about the same on other sites. Or much much MUCH worse. Mind you, I don't check out all the sites. I've seen some that would make my hair straighten.

I've seen the same on other sites, and GW, but its usually aimed at the characters. Not a series of and smug self congratulation about how well crafted one's posts are. The irony of the OTT responses is that I probably would have left after one post otherwise and gone back to lurking

What I see as the problem is *Sam* didn't make those decisions. It was the writers/the powers that be (which includes producers and MGM and skiffy/syfy). WHY was it decided Mitchell had to lead? Was it a requirement that an American be the show's lead? Why could he not be the show's lead but still be lead by Sam teamwise? Why was he written in a way that made him not leadership material *for this particular team* if at all? He could have done most of what he did as 2IC.

While I support the idea of Sam being in charge, I don't think it would have worked if Cam was the lead actor. The lead actor has to have the 'X' factor (I'm not saying Carter doesn't have it, rather that the lead character by default has to have more) so she would end up a little short changed. SGA was able to do it because the boss (the female lead) didn't serve on the same team. She could be the star in her domain, and he could be the star in his. And while yes, Carter and O'Neill served on the same team, she never (IMO) outshone him.

I suspect it has more to do with TPTB wanting to cast a male as the lead, rather than an American, but that might be a little cynical

Why was Vala written as a slaving/'whorelette'-ing/dominatrix clothed/sexually harassing sneakthief? (I didn't mind the sneakthief part.)Why, when they knew in very earl S9 they wanted her back in a more permanent capacity in S10? When S10 rolled around they had to tone her down drastically (Joseph Mallozzi even admitted to it) to make it work.

Oops. Well, it it makes things *fun* by all means, lets ignore canon.

To be fair, s9 Vala was based on s8 Vala, a character they envisioned as a one-shot character that might get reprised at a later date depending upon audience reception. I could not have watched another season of s9-type Vala, but by s10 she had improved considerably. Even in AoT, whilst I had issues with the amount of screentime and dialogue she got in 'team' situations, it's hard to argue against anything she says

[fems]

Again, I'm not trying to defend their decision, but I assume they decided to clean house (so to speak) was precisely because the show had been on for eight years. There wasn't a lot more we could learn about 'our' characters, or even our traditional foes. Excluding X-Files, seven years seems to be the longevity of most sci-fi shows (although the modern Dr Who looks like it might give SG-1 a run for its money) due to plots becoming stale and production demands (I'm not saying that was the case here, but production costs generally trend upwards over time)

Yes, but they had a concept that had been successful for eight years, the 'new and improved' Stargate Command SG-1 only lasted two...

He was younger than BB? Lolz, that's a bit silly on their part. As for the time in service thing, I assume, like Carter, he was nominated for accellerated promotion (her transition from Major to Colonel was swift)

Yes, I am assuming it was because he had to be the awesome male lead who simultaneously was so much better than everyone else and had to be the poster boy for the USAF (although they failed miserably). It's apparently better for him to be in his late thirties than his forties.

Accelerated promotion is possible of course, but with Cam it simply doesn't make sense because of the time in service (not in grade) needed for lt col would mean he graduated the Academy at 19...

As for Sam, her promotion from major to lt colonel took five years. Only three years in grade is needed and sixteen years in service in total. If we go by 1968 being her DoB then indeed she is missing at least a year (assuming she entered the Academy at 17, even though in her day that wasn't possible yet but I doubt TPTB would have realized that) but others say she's more likely to have been born in 1965, which works.

Well, he didn't crash it per se, it was hit with a missile meant for Bra'tac's ship, which is probably why everyone thought it was awesome and why the original SG-1 said they owed their lives to him.

Yes, let's just forget that it was actually SG-1 (Jack, specifically) that saved the day, otherwise they would have all been enslaved or killed by Anubis...

It was and will always be ludicrous and I honestly don't know what kind of special idiot it took to come up with that or to approve of it.

While I support the idea of Sam being in charge, I don't think it would have worked if Cam was the lead actor. The lead actor has to have the 'X' factor (I'm not saying Carter doesn't have it, rather that the lead character by default has to have more) so she would end up a little short changed. SGA was able to do it because the boss (the female lead) didn't serve on the same team. She could be the star in her domain, and he could be the star in his. And while yes, Carter and O'Neill served on the same team, she never (IMO) outshone him.

I suspect it has more to do with TPTB wanting to cast a male as the lead, rather than an American, but that might be a little cynical

But Weir (or Sam/Woolsey) wasn't the lead in SGA, it was Sheppard. As for Sam not having it or not outshining Jack as his second-in-command, that makes sense; it would be really strange if the 2IC was better than their CO in every aspect. She was simply too young and inexperienced in the beginning to be able to match Jack's experience. However, she grew in her experiences as she climbed the ranks and I honestly think TPTB could have written her to become the lead (in a credible way) if they'd wanted to. But they didn't, because they wanted an (American?) male lead with a short temper and juvenile sense of humor.

[hedwig]

Yep, considering the number of things I've stated I've agreed with you about already.

When you write something I can agree with, I will. It isn't about how many times I agree versus how many you do.

Like Cam, I found the Ori to suffer from a bad introduction (read: incredibly boring and ill-advised). I initially viewed it as an attack on religion, although in the end it just seemed like they were the Gou'ald with more powers.

Aha! I agree with you. Will wonders never cease?

The 'not trusting' thing was not an impression I got in terms of his relations with other characters. What was the best example of this for you?

My impression is not so much that he didn't trust them, so much as he was so determined to get to do the heroic stuff instead of relying on his teammates like he was supposed to. And so he would run off without them and do the hero thing himself. I sometimes also had the impression that he was mentally saying to them "See, look at me. I did it. I saved everybody. I'm one of the cool group!"

He was younger than BB? Lolz, that's a bit silly on their part. As for the time in service thing, I assume, like Carter, he was nominated for accellerated promotion (her transition from Major to Colonel was swift)

They do that all the time. Sam was younger than Amanda (depending on who you talk to about what year she was supposedly born in). Daniel was actually way older than Michael (MS turned 40 this past year; Daniel would be 48 this year, having been born in 1964).

And it doesn't seem like 5 years (early S3 to beginning of S8) is a long time to go from Major to Lt. Colonel. Especially when Reynolds and Pierce both got promoted to full bird colonel is less time than that. Reynolds was a Major in S2, was a Lt. Colonel in S5, and a full bird Colonel by S8. He was calling Jack, "Jack" in "Lost City", and I doubt that a lower rank officer is allowed to call a senior officer by his first name (even though Jack occasionally called Hammond "George"). Pierce was a Captain or Major when he first appeared and was either a Lt. Colonel or full bird by S8 ("Gemini").

Well, he didn't crash it per se, it was hit with a missile meant for Bra'tac's ship, which is probably why everyone thought it was awesome and why the original SG-1 said they owed their lives to him. Personally, I thought it cheapened the awesomeness of The Lost City, but I might be alone in that.

I might have been able to swallow that line better (about owing their lives to...) had they included the rest of those 302 pilots that fought in the battle over Antarctica in the comment. Cam wasn't the only one there, and wasn't the only one injured (or killed).

[quote[I would. Did anyone else do a giant *headdesk* during Daniel's "the time to fight is now" speechifying to Morgan Le Fay in TPP? Talk about OTT dialogue [/quote]

Armageddon must be around the corner. I'm agreeing again. There were several little speeches similar to this in those last two seasons that I rolled my eyes at. They just seemed so wrong coming from the person saying them.

In general, I felt the Jaffa Council storyline was a flop, although without it there wouldn't have been much for Teal'C to do. He suffered in the same way Teyla did on SGA - once they brought in another alien, his (main) reason for being on the team was lost

I felt badly for Teal'c having to endure all that and see what power-mongers some of his own people turned into. I found myself comparing them unfavorably to the goa'uld in some cases. However, overall, I think they could have done that storyline far better and given Teal'c more interesting stuff to do. And don't even get me started on "Talion"! Or Daniel's over-the-top rant at Vala in "Unending". (*shudders*)

[Crazedwraith]

Sheppard wasn't the new lead in old show he was the new lead in new show very different IMHO

How? Why? In what way? Introducing a character is introducing a character whether its season 1 or 9 its doesn't change a thing.

the point I am trying to make you guys had too much conditions/expectations on Cam. There was no way to please some of you. He had to be a perfect character and that would have been boring the way you guys nit pick he did nothing right.

I'm not sure you understood my post. I was explicitly pointing out that a character doesn't have to be perfect as long as a show acknowledges that and has the character be cool enough or useful enough in other ways that.

So no. We don't expect the character to be perfect which is why we don't expect the show to treat to character's as if they're perfect.

I'm glad you brought up Jonas's introduction. I guess it was a bit of fake drama, given that he was in the credits so ultimately they would accept him, but I thought it worked well. Even Carter was cold with him, which took me a little by surprise (loved their dynamic by the end of the season though). I guess they couldn't go down that path with Cam because he was in command and it would make the other characters look petty *shrugs*

I get what you're saying there. I wouldn't call it fake drama. I think Jack and Sam blaming Jonas and feeling cold towards him was very realistic even if their eventual acceptance was a forgone conclusion. And it was nice that even though they accepted him, he never quite accepted that they had accepted him. Leading to his continual desired to prove himself and be useful through out the season.

Well, he didn't crash it per se, it was hit with a missile meant for Bra'tac's ship, which is probably why everyone thought it was awesome and why the original SG-1 said they owed their lives to him. Personally, I thought it cheapened the awesomeness of The Lost City, but I might be alone in that.

It's possible Jack saw the determination in Cam during his recovery (its one of the things they harken back to during the sword fight) and reassigned him based on that (or recommended it to Landry, or whatever the process was), but there isn't really enough information to reach a reliable conclusion

I'd forgotten the specifics. Or never knew that that was missile intended for the tel'tac. I remember him shooting down a vessel attacking the tel'tac, getting shot down himself and then an obviously pregnant Sam saying 'wow that was a close one'.

Anyway, that some interesting speculation about the motives. But in the end its just speculation and was never really explored in any depth which I think is the real problem.

In general, I felt the Jaffa Council storyline was a flop, although without it there wouldn't have been much for Teal'C to do. He suffered in the same way Teyla did on SGA - once they brought in another alien, his (main) reason for being on the team was lost

It was quite weak. Which was weird because by rights it should have been the main focus of the season. They didn't need the Orii. The turmoil of the goa'uld-less galaxy should have been enough. Think about it most of the jaffa free nation were not rebels sharing teal'c's ideals of freedom and justice for all. They just switched sides at the last second to survive the replicator threat. And there are plenty of humans out there who would resent the jaffa taking authority over their worlds as 'a free nation' I could easily see the galaxy sliding into a state where Jaffa strongmen and the lucien alliance became as bad the goa'uld ever were. With the humans feeling responsible for the whole mess.

But perhaps that might be seen as social commentary on the whole iraq/afganistan mess and we certainly wouldn't want to open up that barrel of worms.