S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Crazedwraith]

Random note. I remember two occasions of Captain's taking over the helm in all of Star Trek. Picard in Booby Trap and Sulu in The Undiscovered Country. (And that was just because his helmsman had fallen out of his chair iirc)

And even if it did happen a lot. So what? Star Trek is not some holy grail of quality. Happening in star trek =/= must be good. It was stupid when Cam did it. It was stupid when Picard did it.

[hedwig]

You've just used sarcasm and bordeline insults there. It's all in the interpretation.

Incorrect. It's an opinion. And if I have done that, it's only because you have as well. So it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, or similar euphemism. I don't think you are interested in discussing anything here so much as you are interested in attacking all the actually well thought out comments by other posters and tossing out some throw away line in support of your own opinion. And just to clarify, not one word of this comment is an insult in any way or sarcasm. It's an opinion. If you don't know the difference, that's not my problem.

When he was promoted became irrelevant when she took a place on a team that he lead. I didn't say he did take over the mission in the briefing. I also didn't say that Sam wasn't in charge of the mission. And by your own argument, he didn't have to listen to what she said nor did he have to follow her orders.

So I take it that anyone can just run off, do their own thing despite the fact that they are compromising the entire mission and everyone on it? I'm hurting my eyes rolling them at that notion. And, yes, indeed, that actually was sarcasm! Have you watched the episode wherein Cam actually says to Landry that he doesn't "lead" anybody on SG1. That he isn't, in fact, even a leader of said team?

IMO it was justified as it is standard practice on sci-fi shows, especially Star Trek. Archer used to do it to Travis, T'Pol even did it, Picard did it to Wesley, Riker did it, Janeway did it......

I don't really care what the standard practice is on sci-fi shows; we aren't discussing any of them here. And I don't judge it by what other shows do. I still think the notion of Cam booting an experienced navigator out of his seat was rude, insulting and unnecessary to Marks, and Cam once again showboating and behaving as though he was the only one qualified to rescue Sam.

And while Sam may have seemed a little wimpy out there, she had a right to feel that way. I doubt Mitchell (or maybe even Jack) would have behaved any better. Although Jack would likely have hollered at them to "Get me the hell out of here" by the time rescue showed up.

They all have to follow his orders, they're on a team that he leads. If they had to when Jack was in charge, they had to when Cam was.

If Cam doesn't have to follow Sam's orders in Stronghold, she doesn't have to follow his. She only does it as a courtesy to him, given they are the same rank. As has already been pointed out numerous times.

Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? I have. It's fairly easy to make them do that, especially when you want to move at speed. I don't see it as a hangable offence.

Actually, I have. And I still say it was not necessary.

[ReganX]

I don't know what else to say to that. Landry placed him in command. If he thought Carter was any better, he'd have reinstated her as leader upon her return. He didn't.

Landry apparently thought that it was a good idea for him to have his daughter as Chief Medical Officer in his command, and that in a hostage situation, it is unnecessary to either lock out the access codes of captured personnel or, alternatively, switch their access so that their password will grant access to a list of carefully chosen planets like the one supplied to the Aschen. My opinion of his judgement is on the low side.

It was also made very clear to Landry that Mitchell didn't feel able to lead SG-1, given that the team consisted of an officer of the same rank and three civilians, and he seems to have accepted the idea that Mitchell's role as leader was in name only.

[gateraid]

There would have been an easy and acceptable solution to how it could have been done right. Instead of Cam kicking Marks from his seat, have Cam stand behind Marks & guide him on what moves to make to bring Sam in safely. Cam would have still come out as "saving" Sam, but he wouldn't have come off as extremely ego-centric and taking over the whole scenario himself. After all, all Cam did was push a few buttons. Marks could have easily done the same thing with Cam's guidance.

I'm not saying that wouldn't have worked, although the delay in telling someone to make an intricate adjustment and it actually being executed would be too long in this situation. The reason (I assume) they didn't do it is because it makes for boring tv IMO.

Random note. I remember two occasions of Captain's taking over the helm in all of Star Trek. Picard in Booby Trap and Sulu in The Undiscovered Country. (And that was just because his helmsman had fallen out of his chair iirc)

And even if it did happen a lot. So what? Star Trek is not some holy grail of quality. Happening in star trek =/= must be good. It was stupid when Cam did it. It was stupid when Picard did it.

ST definitely isn't a holy grail of quality, but it (and other shows) are where the writers borrow ideas/inspiration from. The reason Picard did it in Booby Trap was because he believed the responsibility should be placed on his own shoulders, not because he believed he was a better pilot than the myriad of officers they would have had on board at the time. Sam was Cam's responsibility, presumably that's why he did it.

Incorrect. It's an opinion. And if I have done that, it's only because you have as well. So it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, or similar euphemism. I don't think you are interested in discussing anything here so much as you are interested in attacking all the actually well thought out comments by other posters and tossing out some throw away line in support of your own opinion. And just to clarify, not one word of this comment is an insult in any way or sarcasm. It's an opinion. If you don't know the difference, that's not my problem.

All right, if you're going to be like that, I think it's you that isn't interested in discussing anything that doesn't conform to your opinion. Have you noticed how this thread used to have a lot more posters? Have you noticed that only the ones that agree with you have remained (and only a handful)? Have you noticed that GW is largely derided on other sites because of the attitude of a certain group of hardcore fans (yeah, you) that simply must have their voice heard and jump all over anyone who doesn't agree with them? I haven't tried to convert you to my opinion, all I've tried to do was offer another explanation. All I seem to get from you is

I've posted on this thread (on and off) for a couple of years. I have been a strong supporter of Sam as the leader of SG-1 and was vocal (not only on this thread) about Cam replacing her. Just because I don't hate Cam doesn't make me any less of a fan of Sam. She left SG-1. Then she left her next assignment as head of R & D to take a position on a team lead by him. That is canon. I didn't see her make a big deal about it, nor attack Cam, and I don't see any reason why I should either. You obviously feel different, which is your right

[fems]

She left SG-1. Then she left her next assignment as head of R & D to take a position on a team lead by him. That is canon. I didn't see her make a big deal about it, nor attack Cam, and I don't see any reason why I should either. You obviously feel different, which is your right

Eh, actually, she requested a transfer to Area 51 and a few months in she was temporarily reassigned to the SGC/SG-1 because they needed her help to set off the bomb she created (apparently the on/off button is well hidden). In Avalon she made it pretty clear she was happy where she was, having taken a break from saving the world and presumably being closer to Cassie even though Mitchell tried to guilt her into coming back (and then quickly backtracked when he realized he overstepped the line).


Then, as time went by her temporary reassignment was made permanent and she officially rejoined SG-1. Sam is a very by-the-book officer and I doubt she'd throw a temper tantrum because she had been reassigned to serve under a (stargate) rookie of equal rank. Plus she'd already mentioned in Avalon that if the world needed saving she'd be there to help so if Landry/HWS told her they needed her to remain at the SGC she wouldn't have made a big deal about it because orders are orders.

Although I do think she should have voiced concern about Mitchell's behavior in the field but I shall blame TPTB for that seeing how they needed him to be the star and didn't even know what to do with her character... As someone else said, the Sam from the early seasons wouldn't have accepted something like that.

[hedwig]

All right, if you're going to be like that, I think it's you that isn't interested in discussing anything that doesn't conform to your opinion.

If you post an opinion with something I happen to agree with, I'll happily agree with it. Thus far, you haven't. Real discussions tend to go that way. Can you say the same?

Have you noticed how this thread used to have a lot more posters?

Actually, I have. But that's only because there are far fewer posters around GW these days since there's not much new to talk about.

Have you noticed that GW is largely derided on other sites because of the attitude of a certain group of hardcore fans (yeah, you) that simply must have their voice heard and jump all over anyone who doesn't agree with them?

This question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and so has no place here. But I'll answer it anyway.

I don't bother with any site that slams GW; it isn't worth my time. If they have nothing better to do than slam (deride) others, they are not the people I want to associate with. Besides, life is too short to keep indulging in pity parties on other sites because they think people don't listen to them. Plus, I'd say those others are every bit as much hardcore as you've just accused us of being.

In actuality, I don't give a fig if you agree with me or not. That isn't why I'm posting anything here. As I've read these posts, people are simply trying to explain why they feel the way they do and are not dismissing your opinions or trying to convince you otherwise. As has been clearly stated in other posts, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Would you be hurling out your accusations or barbs or sarcasm in an actual debate when someone disagrees with your opinion? That's what a debate is for, after all. To discuss differing opinions - which often get rather heated.

If you're trying to convince others here to agree with your opinion, you should have tried it a couple of years back when there were far more people here who would have agreed with you. That's when the owner of the site stepped in and forced people to either leave or start being nicer to others instead of slamming them, insulting them, using sarcasm to demean them to "WIN".

]'ve posted on this thread (on and off) for a couple of years. I have been a strong supporter of Sam as the leader of SG-1 and was vocal (not only on this thread) about Cam replacing her. Just because I don't hate Cam doesn't make me any less of a fan of Sam. She left SG-1.

I don't recall anyone accusing you of denying either of these things. And actually, all three of the remaining members of SG1 left, and Cam dragged them all back because he just had to "learn from" the best of the best. He said nothing about leading them, regardless of that being where he wound up.

Then she left her next assignment as head of R & D to take a position on a team lead by him. That is canon. I didn't see her make a big deal about it, nor attack Cam, and I don't see any reason why I should either. You obviously feel different, which is your right.

What Sam did or did not do isn't an issue here. The issue has been about the way Sam was replaced as lead of SG1. You feel it was fine (no one has denied your right to feel this way). Others feel it wasn't. It's as simple as that. No need to get so offended that no one (yet) has agreed with your opinions. That's life after all.

[poundpuppy29]

just when I thought I was out you drag me back in

I'm not saying that wouldn't have worked, although the delay in telling someone to make an intricate adjustment and it actually being executed would be too long in this situation. The reason (I assume) they didn't do it is because it makes for boring tv IMO.

hit the nail on the head with that quote especially the bolded part. Cam wasn't poorly written nor was he unfit to lead SG-1 you guys just had unrealistic expectations for him. The kind of character you guys would have accepted would be boring and at this time SG-1 was an action adventure scifi series not just a military show. The kind of character that you wanted was Sam minus the science. If it couldn't be Sam then they better be a good reasson they better be impeccable perfect soldier. That is the impression you are giving me and I am sorry to say that character would have been boring. The TPTB had to create character that was interesting and dynamic and they did. The character had to be bold too he couldn't be just supporting character he was the lead character.

[KayLyne]

Cam wasn't poorly written nor was he unfit to lead SG-1 you guys just had unrealistic expectations for him. The kind of character you guys would have accepted would be boring and at this time SG-1 was an action adventure scifi series not just a military show. The kind of character that you wanted was Sam minus the science. If it couldn't be Sam then they better be a good reasson they better be impeccable perfect soldier. That is the impression you are giving me and I am sorry to say that character would have been boring. The TPTB had to create character that was interesting and dynamic and they did. The character had to be bold too he couldn't be just supporting character he was the lead character.

I disagree. All I wanted was Cam to be "realistic", with a background to fit how they were writing his situation. All of the other main characters had backgrounds to fit their purpose of being in the program. They didn't need a new flashy & flamboyant leader to make things exciting. None of the team members were flashy or flamboyant in the first 8 seasons. It was the team interaction and the adventures they went on that made things exciting and realistic (at least as realistic as you can be with having aliens in your show).

IMO, it was because they had the boring story of the Ori coming up that they thought they needed to change things from an interesting "exploring team of realistic people" show to a general "flashy inexperienced new 'leader' not playing well with others" show.

[poundpuppy29]

I disagree. All I wanted was Cam to be "realistic", with a background to fit how they were writing his situation. All of the other main characters had backgrounds to fit their purpose of being in the program. They didn't need a new flashy & flamboyant leader to make things exciting. None of the team members were flashy or flamboyant in the first 8 seasons. It was the team interaction and the adventures they went on that made things exciting and realistic (at least as realistic as you can be with having aliens in your show).

IMO, it was because they had the boring story of the Ori coming up that they thought they needed to change things from an interesting "exploring team of realistic people" show to a general "flashy inexperienced new 'leader' not playing well with others" show.

Jack was the action star the first 5 seasons the anti hero the one who didn't always follow orders Cam had to be different than him and I did not find the Ori Storyline boring at all they were scarier than the Gou'ald to me who were very predictable IMHO

[KayLyne]

Jack was the action star the first 5 seasons the anti hero the one who didn't always follow orders Cam had to be different than him

But when it came down to it, Jack always trusted the rest of his team and their opinions. Cam, who had no previous gate experience (except the laughingly absurd premise that he knew every single detail of every previous mission from the past 8 years before his arrival), didn't trust those whom he fought so hard to get back together as a team (which was also due to his giddy fanboy complex)

[fems]

Jack was the action star the first 5 seasons the anti hero the one who didn't always follow orders Cam had to be different than him and I did not find the Ori Storyline boring at all they were scarier than the Gou'ald to me who were very predictable IMHO

Yeah, Jack was an experienced and mature leader, Cam wasn't. No one is saying they had to be the same but it would have been preferable if Cam had at least been somewhat realistic. Don't forget that the show was popular for eight seasons with more or less one format (military, exploration, science, mythology were all aspects of that) and just because RDA left doesn't mean they had to turn it upside down and make a mockery of the show, by ignoring the military part and the team interactions.

I also don't get why TPTB felt it necessary to make BB's character eight years younger than he was, thereby making him the youngest of the group (and yet he called his team "kids" once, just like Jack) and worse, too young for his actual rank. He didn't even have the time in service to be a lieutenant colonel...

[poundpuppy29]

How many military people do you know because I know a few and they are not all like Jack or Sam? The military in the U.S.A. takes all types not just the stoic warrior types

[fems]

How many military people do you know because I know a few and they are not all like Jack or Sam? The military in the U.S.A. takes all types not just the stoic warrior types

Oh, I'm sorry; where did I say Cam needed to be the stoic warrior type, just like Sam and Jack?

Not that I think they are actually the stoic warrior types, but that's beside the point...

[dipsofjazz]

just when I thought I was out you drag me back in


hit the nail on the head with that quote especially the bolded part. Cam wasn't poorly written nor was he unfit to lead SG-1 you guys just had unrealistic expectations for him. The kind of character you guys would have accepted would be boring and at this time SG-1 was an action adventure scifi series not just a military show. The kind of character that you wanted was Sam minus the science. If it couldn't be Sam then they better be a good reasson they better be impeccable perfect soldier. That is the impression you are giving me and I am sorry to say that character would have been boring. The TPTB had to create character that was interesting and dynamic and they did. The character had to be bold too he couldn't be just supporting character he was the lead character.

I see that you're reading minds again.

The kind of character I wanted to see was one that fit in with the canon of the show which was a mixture of action, adventure, military, science, mythology, with some pathos and humour thrown in for good measure. A character that had experience of being part of the Stargate programme and had been through the training that had been mentioned in previous episodes of the show. If he was to be leader of the flagship team, he should have come from another team and not from another field of the military.
I wouldn't have minded him being reckless if the writers had given a good reason for it.
When Jonas joined the show, it took many episodes for the team to accept him, especially Jack. With Mitchell we get Walter and co. fanboy-ing him, telling us what a wonderful guy he is. I don't want to hear how great he is, I want to see it.
As to the problem with the Ori, all I see is the next level of false gods. It's the Goa'uld but bigger and badder, but not scarier. Instead of the team working out how to beat the baddies, we now have them going on a treasure hunt looking for stuff the Ancients had left lying around the galaxy. This is why I found the Ori boring.

[poundpuppy29]

If he was already a part of the SG program then we would have seen him. I think you guys take Proving Ground way to seriously