S10: Critique & Contemplation

[fems]

And when reasons were offered, you called them fan wank

Merely because the reasons mentioned were "that's only because you love Sam (or Jack) and thus you hate Cam (or Vala)!" or references to fan wars between AT and MS fans. They weren't real arguments and very circular, read back through puppypounds' posts and you'll see. If not, then nothing we'll see will convince you anyway.

It wasn't meant to be an arguement, merely an observation that the blanket statement describing Cam could just as easily have described Jack at the start of the show. Saying he was the most experienced guy they had isn't exactly high praise, given they'd only been on the one mission.

No, no, no. Yes, Jack had led one previous mission through the gate and therefore was the most experienced guy in regards to Stargate travel they had. However, he's also done at least ten years of black/special operations, which is ground combat and he's been in command of several missions/teams. Also, Jack recognized and knew how to use staff weapons when no one at the SGC could work it out (not that it was difficult but okay) even though they'd had them for hours if not days. Plus Jack knew the enemy, he'd encountered Goa'uld before and the team he was taking with him existed of guys who'd also been there and under his command before, or had specific expertise (like Sam) that might be needed.

I'm not sure entirely what your objection here is - would you still have a problem if Cam was written exactly the same way, but his backstory was that he was the leader of SG-2, and we'd never seen him prior to Avalon? Like you, I think it was a foolish decision for Landry to assign a stargate newbie to lead the team, but it didn't really matter in the end. I doubt he'd have been written any differently even if he'd been in the SG environment for the previous ten years.

Read through the previous posts with suggestions about how the character would have been better...

I'm going to regret saying this, but what were his terrible mistakes? I don't particularly care for Cam, but I can't think of anything egregious that he did

Plenty of Cam's mistakes have already been mentioned on previous pages. If you can't be bothered to read them or simply don't see the mistakes he's made, then I don't it'll help you any for me to list them again. Besides, it'll take me all day if not longer to note them all.

Doesn't care about their safety? What was the speech to Vala about then (when Daniel was being zapped by Merlin's ancient mind probe)?

Oh wow, one whole speech that left absolutely no impression on me through his entire leadership? How about all the teams he nearly got his team killed because he ran off thinking he either didn't need their help or wanted to be the one to go on this cool adventure? He lost Daniel and Vala and nearly got Sam and Teal'c killed in less than two years, that's not exactly a stellar record! Not even counting the times he nearly got them all killed and they were conveniently saved by one of Earth's ships and beamed out just in time! He didn't heed the warnings/advice from more experienced members, not even when it was their area of expertise, he obviously didn't respect them or their opinions and would do whatever he felt like without an actual plan because it was all such an awesome adventure to him...

I remember the episode. I also remember that despite him ignoring Carter's order, the mission was only successful because of what he did. It's dumb writing, but it worked.

Oh well, in that case... Gee, it should have never happened! He obviously doesn't respect his team members or a chain of command and ignores everything because he's the guy that can save the day!

Didn't work so well with the Tok'Ra though

Um well, if you recall Jack had plenty of reasons to be distrustful of the Tok'ra! On more than one occasion they nearly got him and/or his team killed, their introduction to the Tok'ra (Jolinar) wasn't that fabulous either and they were kept against their will on their first meeting on the Tok'ra planet. Still, they continued to work together without the Tok'ra actually sharing any information unless they had to because they once again needed SG-1 to save one of their undercover operatives or something like that. If it wasn't for Jacob/Selmak going a bit rogue in Reckoning we would have never even known the Tok'ra had this subspace network that could have helped the SGC on more than one occasion in the past! Plus, when Jack reluctantly agreed to become a temporary host to Kanan to save his own life and the intel Kanan had, his body got snatched and the little snake left him before he was captured by Ba'al and got tortured, killed and revived over and over again... Oh yeah, such trustworthy folks!

[ReganX]

I agree with this and we also shouldn't forget how proudly Cam states he's read all of their mission reports while recuperating in the hospital (which to me personally sounds like crap and awful security, but it's probably the only thing TPTB could come up with)

That really annoyed me. It made Mitchell look like a twit when he was going on about what happened on the mission reports that he read to the people who actually took part in the missions and wrote the reports in question. I seriously doubt the Sam or Teal'c needed to be reminded about what they had done, and even if Daniel missed a year's worth of missions, he's perfectly capable of reading mission reports for himself.

The whole "I read every mission report" thing also makes him look worse in terms of his behaviour when he came to the SGC, obsessed with working with the cool team. I would hope that a military officer who came to a new position - one that many other officers, quite a few of whom are more experienced than he is, would love to have - and learned that he wouldn't be working with the people he initially believed he would be working with, would behave like an adult and select a new team, as ordered, instead of acting like a spoiled child and badgering people who had moved on to come back, for no better reason than to let him live out his fantasy.

Had I been running the SGC, Mitchell would have been sitting in that office with the personnel files I had made available to him until he selected three of the candidates. If he didn't think any of them were good enough to be on his team, I'd find somebody else to lead SG-1, and Mitchell would be transferred. Actually, he'd have gone on extensive training, including missions with other SG teams, before I decided whether or not to have him on a team, let alone have him lead one.

[hedwig]

I'm not sure entirely what your objection here is - would you still have a problem if Cam was written exactly the same way, but his backstory was that he was the leader of SG-2, and we'd never seen him prior to Avalon? Like you, I think it was a foolish decision for Landry to assign a stargate newbie to lead the team, but it didn't really matter in the end. I doubt he'd have been written any differently even if he'd been in the SG environment for the previous ten years.

Actually, this would have been a far better backstory than the one we got. However, had he been in charge of SG2 or another team, he would not have lasted 10 years. He would have been one of those teams that got wiped out early on during some mission, because of his irresponsible behavior.

I'm going to regret saying this, but what were his terrible mistakes? I don't particularly care for Cam, but I can't think of anything egregious that he did

As has already been pointed out in other posts:
Arthur's Mantle (running off while invisible to help Teal'c, because 'He's a friend; we don't leave people behind' - once again, more or less thumbing his nose at Sam and her objections).
Off the Grid (pretending to be a drug runner and almost getting everyone killed, and then at the last minute trying to convince the real drug runners the rest of his team weren't responsible; only him. Yeah, like that's gonna fly with those guys.)
Memento Mori (grabbing the motorcycle and doing wheelies out of the parking lot and down the highway when chasing after the bad guys who had taken Vala from the police station. I would love to have seen Sam get to do the chasing on the motorcycle. After all, she's really the only one throughout the series that was even mentioned as knowing how to use one of those things.)
Flesh&Blood (booting the helmsman out of his seat and taking over navigation of Odyssey to rescue Sam. Since when has Cam had the time to learn how to pilot something like the Odyssey? I can see how Sam would, since she worked on it, and had some experience doing so in "Prometheus" and "Grace", but where in those two years of recovery and one year on SG1 did Cam have the time to learn this? Flying an F302 is not the same thing.)

I remember the episode. I also remember that despite him ignoring Carter's order, the mission was only successful because of what he did. It's dumb writing, but it worked.

The mission was not successful because of Cam. It was successful because of all the other SG team members who stayed outside fighting and because Teal'c had rescued himself by the time Cam got to him. Teal'c had the staff weapon and was being ordered to kill Bra'tac, but he turned the weapon on and killed Ba'al when Cam showed up - too late to do any good. Again - dumb writing. Actually, not quite so dumb since Teal'c got to rescue himself and not have to wait to be rescued; Cam wasn't even needed in that scene.

Additionally, in "Stronghold", Cam actually had to be rescued by Sam and Daniel when he irresponsibly rushed up the hill on on a mission of his own. Two or more Jaffa caught him trying to activate the rings and would have killed him had not Sam and Daniel arrived and killed the Jaffa. So, - again - Cam didn't save the day. He had to be rescued and then wound up getting their too late. Teal'c and Bra'tac would have escaped due to Teal'c's actions, not Cam's.

[jckfan55]

Quote Originally Posted by gateraid
I remember the episode. I also remember that despite him ignoring Carter's order, the mission was only successful because of what he did. It's dumb writing, but it worked.

Oh well, in that case... Gee, it should have never happened! He obviously doesn't respect his team members or a chain of command and ignores everything because he's the guy that can save the day!

I think the "dumb writing" comment is key. The whole premise of the episode is that Cam's a hothead but that's ok.
I think it actually could have been a good way to show that Cam is figuring out that he can't be a one man band.
for example, say this happened at the end:
b/c he's learned something, he consciously reins himself in and waits for orders. Then Carter orders him onto the ship (her mission) instead of the "Could I stop you?" "No, I'm in a bad mood." exchange. He can still save the day, but within the team.

[Crazedwraith]

And when reasons were offered, you called them fan wank

Well technically. I didn't. One of the other people arguing with him did.

And seconds, what reasons he offered? Most of the time he just said we didn't like Cam because we liked Sam. The closest he got was his last post where he said it was good Cam wasn't exactly like Jack, which is fair enough but doesn't absolve him of the flaws people have pointed out.

It wasn't meant to be an arguement, merely an observation that the blanket statement describing Cam could just as easily have described Jack at the start of the show. Saying he was the most experienced guy they had isn't exactly high praise, given they'd only been on the one mission.

I'm sorry. I was inferring that by making that statement you were claiming that Cam's inexperience was excusable because it was no different from Jack's inexperience. I was just observing how the situations were different. Jack was inexperienced but he was still the best man for the job. With Cam almost anyone would have been better.

I'm not sure entirely what your objection here is - would you still have a problem if Cam was written exactly the same way, but his backstory was that he was the leader of SG-2, and we'd never seen him prior to Avalon? Like you, I think it was a foolish decision for Landry to assign a stargate newbie to lead the team, but it didn't really matter in the end. I doubt he'd have been written any differently even if he'd been in the SG environment for the previous ten years.

Yes, that would have been better. As we've explained before. Of course if his character was exactly the same nevertheless it wouldn't have been a great improvement but it would have better than nothing.

Even Cam's being an irresponsible hothead not listening to the other's would have been ok. If the show had actually written that as a bad thing and have the other character's react appropriately to it rather than them still going for the happy family vibe.

Of course, that doesn't just apply to Cam. It'd really have liked it if Teal'c had faced some consequences or at least ill feeling for betraying SG-1, zatting them or just plain beating them up when he was on another Jaffa revenge thing in Talion. Perhaps the worst Teal'c Centric episode ever.

The description she used was "va va voom" (with accompanying hand gestures) to describe Seven's look. That's the first time I've heard those comments about Janeway, at least from Mulgrew rather than a fan.

I heard it in Sfdebris' Voyager reviews but I don't know what his source on it was.

[thekillman]

Didn't work so well with the Tok'Ra though

so?

If it wasn't for Jacob/Selmak going a bit rogue in Reckoning we would have never even known the Tok'ra had this subspace network that could have helped the SGC on more than one occasion in the past!

whoah whoah!

The Tok'ra-Tau'ri relations weren't stellar, but it's hardly to blame on one specific side. remember that on multiple occasions, the Tau'ri also threw a monkey-wrench in Tok'ra plans, usually going in guns blazing without thinking about consequences. There were numerous Tok'ra casualties as collateral damage.

[fems]

whoah whoah!

The Tok'ra-Tau'ri relations weren't stellar, but it's hardly to blame on one specific side. remember that on multiple occasions, the Tau'ri also threw a monkey-wrench in Tok'ra plans, usually going in guns blazing without thinking about consequences. There were numerous Tok'ra casualties as collateral damage.

True, which all could have been avoidable if the Tok'ra would have informed the Tau'ri of some of their operations, or at least mention where not to go because they had operatives there.

[Crazedwraith]

And equally if the Tau'ri told the Tok'Ra about where all its planned missions were going.

Though I can't think of very many incidents of the tau'ri messiing up Tok'Ra ops. The only intentional incident was when they went to get Selmak in Tangent. But I suppose there was the Egeria incident (really no-one's fault) and that time the trust started using the symbiote poison.

For the reverse there was the armbands in Upgrades, them not checking their own people in Divide and Conquer the plan in Serpent's Venom backfiring. (not the tok'ra's fault) and if you want to go out on a limb maybe their plans in Devil You Know and Summit.

So aside from Season 4 really having it in for them, I think they're pretty much square of the messing up each other scales.


How is this related to season 10 again?

[thekillman]

True, which all could have been avoidable if the Tok'ra would have informed the Tau'ri of some of their operations, or at least mention where not to go because they had operatives there.

it would've been avoidable if both sides had played open cards from the beginning

[ReganX]

It wasn't meant to be an arguement, merely an observation that the blanket statement describing Cam could just as easily have described Jack at the start of the show. Saying he was the most experienced guy they had isn't exactly high praise, given they'd only been on the one mission.

The thing is that, at the start of the show, the situation at the SGC was very different.

They had no choice but to recruit officers with little or no experience of the stargate, and offworld missions because the Stargate Program was in its infancy.

By Season Nine, the Stargate Program had been operational for eight years, and there were at least twenty-five SG teams. From the fifth year onwards, every officer considered for assignment to an SG team was required to undergo intensive training, regardless of qualifications and previous experience. Even discounting the diplomatic and archaeological teams, it's a safe bet that there were at least twenty experienced officers working as SG team leaders. In a situation like that, it makes no sense whatsoever to choose to put somebody with no experience in command of the flagship team, especially when he's expected to select his team without advice, and is not required to undergo training.

An inexperienced and/or under qualified person in a leadership/critically important position only makes sense if there is no alternative but to have them in that position.

One example of this would be the then-Major Sheppard becoming ranking military officer on Atlantis by default after Colonel Sumner's death. Had Atlantis been in contact with the SGC after Sumner's death, another officer would have been sent to take his place but, as matters stood, that option was not available to them and Sheppard had to step up. Another example can be found in Star Trek: Voyager, with the Emergency Medical Hologram. It was never intended that the program wold serve as anything more than a supplement or emergency back-up to the medical staff but, after the death of the Chief Medical Officer, they didn't have an alternative to having a hologram as their new Chief Medical Officer.

In Mitchell's case, he was presented as a green rookie in a situation where it made no sense to have a green rookie in command, as there were other options available to them. At that point in the Stargate Program's existence, the only way I could see a character as inexperienced as he was being in command was if he had been appointed to the team as a publicity stunt, with the intention that he would be a poster boy once the program went public, or if he was a member of another country's military, assigned to SG-1 as a diplomatic gesture, in which case he would have to remain the titular leader for th sake of relations between the US military and his own country.

[gateraid]

Merely because the reasons mentioned were "that's only because you love Sam (or Jack) and thus you hate Cam (or Vala)!" or references to fan wars between AT and MS fans. They weren't real arguments and very circular, read back through puppypounds' posts and you'll see. If not, then nothing we'll see will convince you anyway.

What? I "have" to agree with you? This is a merged thread, it's not meant to be pro nor anti

No, no, no. Yes, Jack had led one previous mission through the gate and therefore was the most experienced guy in regards to Stargate travel they had. However, he's also done at least ten years of black/special operations, which is ground combat and he's been in command of several missions/teams. Also, Jack recognized and knew how to use staff weapons when no one at the SGC could work it out (not that it was difficult but okay) even though they'd had them for hours if not days. Plus Jack knew the enemy, he'd encountered Goa'uld before and the team he was taking with him existed of guys who'd also been there and under his command before, or had specific expertise (like Sam) that might be needed.

And yet just previously it was mentioned that one of the reasons he was so qualified initially was that he was non-plussed about dying. I wasn't having a dig at Jack earlier. He was the right man at that time. And when Mitchell turned up, he was also the right man at that time. Different situations, and different risks. Both of them learned about their respective new enemies on the job.

Read through the previous posts with suggestions about how the character would have been better...

Plenty of Cam's mistakes have already been mentioned on previous pages. If you can't be bothered to read them or simply don't see the mistakes he's made, then I don't it'll help you any for me to list them again. Besides, it'll take me all day if not longer to note them all.

I see mistakes that all of the characters have made at some point or another, but they didn't have years of hindsight to base their actions on (like we have, given how long ago these eps aired) I can forgive them the odd goof. I give Carter a mulligan for giving Ba'al the security code, just like I do Teal'C for ignoring orders (again) in Talion.

Oh wow, one whole speech that left absolutely no impression on me through his entire leadership? How about all the teams he nearly got his team killed because he ran off thinking he either didn't need their help or wanted to be the one to go on this cool adventure? He lost Daniel and Vala and nearly got Sam and Teal'c killed in less than two years, that's not exactly a stellar record! Not even counting the times he nearly got them all killed and they were conveniently saved by one of Earth's ships and beamed out just in time! He didn't heed the warnings/advice from more experienced members, not even when it was their area of expertise, he obviously didn't respect them or their opinions and would do whatever he felt like without an actual plan because it was all such an awesome adventure to him...

Aren't you hamming that up a bit?

Oh well, in that case... Gee, it should have never happened! He obviously doesn't respect his team members or a chain of command and ignores everything because he's the guy that can save the day!

Given he was the most senior officer present, chain of command isn't really the issue. Carter was in charge of the mission in his absence, he could just as easily have taken over if he wanted to

Um well, if you recall Jack had plenty of reasons to be distrustful of the Tok'ra! On more than one occasion they nearly got him and/or his team killed, their introduction to the Tok'ra (Jolinar) wasn't that fabulous either and they were kept against their will on their first meeting on the Tok'ra planet. Still, they continued to work together without the Tok'ra actually sharing any information unless they had to because they once again needed SG-1 to save one of their undercover operatives or something like that. If it wasn't for Jacob/Selmak going a bit rogue in Reckoning we would have never even known the Tok'ra had this subspace network that could have helped the SGC on more than one occasion in the past! Plus, when Jack reluctantly agreed to become a temporary host to Kanan to save his own life and the intel Kanan had, his body got snatched and the little snake left him before he was captured by Ba'al and got tortured, killed and revived over and over again... Oh yeah, such trustworthy folks!

I agree, very untrustworthy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this instance. Smoother diplomatic relations may have helped, but we'll never know for sure

Actually, this would have been a far better backstory than the one we got. However, had he been in charge of SG2 or another team, he would not have lasted 10 years. He would have been one of those teams that got wiped out early on during some mission, because of his irresponsible behavior.

Yes, so irresponsible and uncommitted to the mission at hand that him using his 302 to intercept the missile aimed at SG-1 was a complete accident, nothing more

As has already been pointed out in other posts:
Arthur's Mantle (running off while invisible to help Teal'c, because 'He's a friend; we don't leave people behind' - once again, more or less thumbing his nose at Sam and her objections).

He is her CO, he doesn't have to follow her orders. She has said in the past that its her job to present the risks, not to decide the course of action. And lets face it, she'd be the one who'd make a better job of getting them home, he could have either stood around and given her a comforting backrub or done something that was actually helpful

Off the Grid (pretending to be a drug runner and almost getting everyone killed, and then at the last minute trying to convince the real drug runners the rest of his team weren't responsible; only him. Yeah, like that's gonna fly with those guys.)

I'm not familiar enough with that episode to comment on it

Memento Mori (grabbing the motorcycle and doing wheelies out of the parking lot and down the highway when chasing after the bad guys who had taken Vala from the police station. I would love to have seen Sam get to do the chasing on the motorcycle. After all, she's really the only one throughout the series that was even mentioned as knowing how to use one of those things.)

He'd have to be a complete spaz not to be able to pull that off. He was taking off fast, they're not like a car with virtually all the weight in the front section. Given that he grew up on a farm, it's highly likely he knew how to ride a motorcycle

Flesh&Blood (booting the helmsman out of his seat and taking over navigation of Odyssey to rescue Sam. Since when has Cam had the time to learn how to pilot something like the Odyssey? I can see how Sam would, since she worked on it, and had some experience doing so in "Prometheus" and "Grace", but where in those two years of recovery and one year on SG1 did Cam have the time to learn this? Flying an F302 is not the same thing.)

Taking the helm is a sci-fi cliche. It's when the senior officer (or more to the point, the one who comes up with the idea) takes the responsibility away from the junior one in case the action fails. Star Trek did it all the time, with the captain putting their hand on the helmsman's shoulder and moving them away from the con. In this instance, Cam (presumably) did it because then Carter's death would have been on his own hands, nor Marks's.

As for flying the Odyssey, it apparently isn't too difficult. Stargate tends not to make a big deal about piloting skills. I have a harder time believing Sheppard can fly a 302 without training, coming from a background of helicopters. And even Sheppard has flown the Deadalus more than once. Heck, Walter can fly an alkesh, and he's not even a pilot. Vala managed to not only lock Daniel out of the controls on the Prometheus, but pre-programme it to land, then pilot it back into space while under attack. And in Unnatural Selection, Teal'C made the Prometheus takeoff with just one button.

Well technically. I didn't. One of the other people arguing with him did.

And seconds, what reasons he offered? Most of the time he just said we didn't like Cam because we liked Sam. The closest he got was his last post where he said it was good Cam wasn't exactly like Jack, which is fair enough but doesn't absolve him of the flaws people have pointed out.



I'm sorry. I was inferring that by making that statement you were claiming that Cam's inexperience was excusable because it was no different from Jack's inexperience. I was just observing how the situations were different. Jack was inexperienced but he was still the best man for the job. With Cam almost anyone would have been better.

Well, excusable is probably going a bit far, that wasn't quite what I meant. You're right though, the situations were different. Completely different initially. Jack was called in to deal with a specific threat, whilst Cam was there to lead a team after they'd just defeated their old foes. He became the most experienced officer dealing with the Ori on the job.

Yes, that would have been better. As we've explained before. Of course if his character was exactly the same nevertheless it wouldn't have been a great improvement but it would have better than nothing.

Even Cam's being an irresponsible hothead not listening to the other's would have been ok. If the show had actually written that as a bad thing and have the other character's react appropriately to it rather than them still going for the happy family vibe.

Of course, that doesn't just apply to Cam. It'd really have liked it if Teal'c had faced some consequences or at least ill feeling for betraying SG-1, zatting them or just plain beating them up when he was on another Jaffa revenge thing in Talion. Perhaps the worst Teal'c Centric episode ever.

Consequences were never a strong suit in Stargate due to its episodic nature, but I also would have loved to have seen some.

I heard it in Sfdebris' Voyager reviews but I don't know what his source on it was.

Love those reviews

so?

That was kinda my point, that diplomacy wasn't a strong suit with the leaders of SG-1

The thing is that, at the start of the show, the situation at the SGC was very different <snipped for length> ...titular leader for th sake of relations between the US military and his own country.

I don't know what else to say to that. Landry placed him in command. If he thought Carter was any better, he'd have reinstated her as leader upon her return. He didn't.

[hedwig]

And yet just previously it was mentioned that one of the reasons he was so qualified initially was that he was non-plussed about dying. I wasn't having a dig at Jack earlier. He was the right man at that time. And when Mitchell turned up, he was also the right man at that time. Different situations, and different risks. Both of them learned about their respective new enemies on the job.

Jack's background in black ops for nearly 20 years prior to joining the SGC made him the most qualified person for the job, and his willingness to die in what was supposedly a suicide mission and he knew it. Cam's background in flying jets and magically learning how to fly 302s during his nearly two year period of recovery from his injuries over Antarctica (oh, and his mysterious background in special ops somewhere along the way) do not make him the "most qualified" person for the job. As has been previously stated, from Season 8 onward, the rule around the SGC was that nobody gets on an SGC team without the "proper" training and especially no one who hasn't set foot through the gate. By those rules, how is Cam qualified to lead SG1?

I see mistakes that all of the characters have made at some point or another, but they didn't have years of hindsight to base their actions on (like we have, given how long ago these eps aired) I can forgive them the odd goof. I give Carter a mulligan for giving Ba'al the security code, just like I do Teal'C for ignoring orders (again) in Talion.

You are not alone in this one. Pretty much everyone gives them black marks for those episodes. I would add Landry to the list for not immediately locking Sam's codes out of the computer system. Hammond did it in earlier years. How come Landry didn't? He certainly had the time.

Aren't you hamming that up a bit?

Aren't you? Seems to me you prefer to use sarcasm and borderline insults to reply to perfectly reasonable posts that are being used for an actual discussion. If you think you're being witty, sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't.

Given he was the most senior officer present, chain of command isn't really the issue. Carter was in charge of the mission in his absence, he could just as easily have taken over if he wanted to.

As has been stated many times, Cam was not the most senior officer. He and Sam were the same rank. We don't know when Cam was promoted. He could have been promoted in the hospital when he was conscious enough to know what was happening. And by then, Sam had already been promoted to Lt. Colonel. And Sam was the officer in charge of the mission. That was clear by the fact that she was giving the mission details to the troops going to rescue Teal'c, and giving the order to depart. I didn't hear Cam doing anything. He didn't take over the mission at any time during the briefing or during the battle. (though I'm quite sure you have some sort of flippant response in proof of your own "wisdom" on the issue.)

Yes, so irresponsible and uncommitted to the mission at hand that him using his 302 to intercept the missile aimed at SG-1 was a complete accident, nothing more.

Nobody is talking about the 302 or the mission over Antarctica here. The comment was about taking over the Odyssey and nothing else.[quote]

He is her CO, he doesn't have to follow her orders. She has said in the past that its her job to present the risks, not to decide the course of action. And lets face it, she'd be the one who'd make a better job of getting them home, he could have either stood around and given her a comforting backrub or done something that was actually helpful

And she doesn't have to follow his orders. Again, as has been clearly stated before, they are the same rank. Cam even said to Landry that he doesn't command anyone because he and Sam are the same rank, and Daniel and Teal'c are civilians. Therefore, he doesn't command anyone. And let's face it, yes he could have stood around or given her a backrub ... or just followed the game plan as had been stated at the SGC prior to departure. How is that so difficult to understand?

He'd have to be a complete spaz not to be able to pull that off. He was taking off fast, they're not like a car with virtually all the weight in the front section. Given that he grew up on a farm, it's highly likely he knew how to ride a motorcycle

He was showing off. Period!

Taking the helm is a sci-fi cliche. It's when the senior officer (or more to the point, the one who comes up with the idea) takes the responsibility away from the junior one in case the action fails. Star Trek did it all the time, with the captain putting their hand on the helmsman's shoulder and moving them away from the con. In this instance, Cam (presumably) did it because then Carter's death would have been on his own hands, nor Marks's.

Marks knows what his job is. And it isn't Cam's job to "save" anyone from having to do the work required here. Marks has far more experience at the helm than Cam, since he's been flying these things for a couple of years now. And if the Captain often takes the helm in various other shows, then it should rightfully have been Emerson doing it here, not Mitchell. These guys all know the hazards of battle and war and that they're going to have to do some thing they'll be having nightmares about for years. It isn't Cam's job to save them all from that experience. He had no business taking over the helm. It was a silly stunt designed by TPTB to make Cam look heroic and nothing more.

Well, excusable is probably going a bit far, that wasn't quite what I meant. You're right though, the situations were different. Completely different initially. Jack was called in to deal with a specific threat, whilst Cam was there to lead a team after they'd just defeated their old foes. He became the most experienced officer dealing with the Ori on the job.

So did all the other team leaders at the SGC suddenly quit or become so incapacitated they were unable to lead SG1? Cam was given leadership as a reward, and for no other reason than that. It had nothing to do with his qualifications. He was not the most experienced officer dealing with the Ori. They weren't even known about at the time he was assigned to the SGC. So the Ori have nothing to do with why he was assigned to SG1.

Consequences were never a strong suit in Stargate due to its episodic nature, but I also would have loved to have seen some.

Couldn't come up with anything better for an argument?

[fems]

Actually, Cam may have had some competition from Sam in being the most experienced officer when it comes to dealing with the Ori, considering she also knows a lot about their priors' physiology and how their brains/powers work with all the tech she's worked on and has adapted. The anti-prior device for example would require extensive knowledge about the Ori's priors.

Taking everything in account (Daniel's experience with ascending and his bodyswap to the Ori galaxy; Vala's experience with the bodyswap, Tomin and Adria; Sam's know-how of the Ori tech) Cam and Teal'c are probably the ones on SG-1 with the least knowledge about the Or. Considering how old and wise Teal'c is and his experiences with false gods as well as ascension (from meeting Oma Desala, Jaffa legends about Kheb etc), I'd say even he has a slight advantage over Cam.

[gateraid]

Jack's background in black ops for nearly 20 years prior to joining the SGC made him the most qualified person for the job, and his willingness to die in what was supposedly a suicide mission and he knew it. Cam's background in flying jets and magically learning how to fly 302s during his nearly two year period of recovery from his injuries over Antarctica (oh, and his mysterious background in special ops somewhere along the way) do not make him the "most qualified" person for the job. As has been previously stated, from Season 8 onward, the rule around the SGC was that nobody gets on an SGC team without the "proper" training and especially no one who hasn't set foot through the gate. By those rules, how is Cam qualified to lead SG1?

It was ten years a page or two back, and Cam already knew how to fly a 302, that's what he was doing on the Prometheus (in charge of their fighter squadron) and how he was injured. I didn't say he was the most qualified, I said he was the right person for the job at that time.

You are not alone in this one. Pretty much everyone gives them black marks for those episodes. I would add Landry to the list for not immediately locking Sam's codes out of the computer system. Hammond did it in earlier years. How come Landry didn't? He certainly had the time.

It was a deliberate flub from the writers, They needed Sam to do it else the ep wouldn't have worked. I don't buy that she would do it in the first place, let alone, as you rightly point out, that Landry wouldn't lock out her codes

Aren't you? Seems to me you prefer to use sarcasm and borderline insults to reply to perfectly reasonable posts that are being used for an actual discussion. If you think you're being witty, sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't.

You've just used sarcasm and bordeline insults there. It's all in the interpretation.

As has been stated many times, Cam was not the most senior officer. He and Sam were the same rank. We don't know when Cam was promoted. He could have been promoted in the hospital when he was conscious enough to know what was happening. And by then, Sam had already been promoted to Lt. Colonel. And Sam was the officer in charge of the mission. That was clear by the fact that she was giving the mission details to the troops going to rescue Teal'c, and giving the order to depart. I didn't hear Cam doing anything. He didn't take over the mission at any time during the briefing or during the battle. (though I'm quite sure you have some sort of flippant response in proof of your own "wisdom" on the issue.)

When he was promoted became irrelevant when she took a place on a team that he lead. I didn't say he did take over the mission in the briefing. I also didn't say that Sam wasn't in charge of the mission. And by your own argument, he didn't have to listen to what she said nor did he have to follow her orders.

Nobody is talking about the 302 or the mission over Antarctica here. The comment was about taking over the Odyssey and nothing else.

IMO it was justified as it is standard practice on sci-fi shows, especially Star Trek. Archer used to do it to Travis, T'Pol even did it, Picard did it to Wesley, Riker did it, Janeway did it......

And she doesn't have to follow his orders. Again, as has been clearly stated before, they are the same rank. Cam even said to Landry that he doesn't command anyone because he and Sam are the same rank, and Daniel and Teal'c are civilians. Therefore, he doesn't command anyone. And let's face it, yes he could have stood around or given her a backrub ... or just followed the game plan as had been stated at the SGC prior to departure. How is that so difficult to understand?

They all have to follow his orders, they're on a team that he leads. If they had to when Jack was in charge, they had to when Cam was.

He was showing off. Period!

He was showing off in your opinion.

Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? I have. It's fairly easy to make them do that, especially when you want to move at speed. I don't see it as a hangable offence.

Marks knows what his job is. And it isn't Cam's job to "save" anyone from having to do the work required here. Marks has far more experience at the helm than Cam, since he's been flying these things for a couple of years now. And if the Captain often takes the helm in various other shows, then it should rightfully have been Emerson doing it here, not Mitchell. These guys all know the hazards of battle and war and that they're going to have to do some thing they'll be having nightmares about for years. It isn't Cam's job to save them all from that experience. He had no business taking over the helm. It was a silly stunt designed by TPTB to make Cam look heroic and nothing more.

My only problem with it is that it made Sam look like a weenie. In reality, she was explaining the risk. But she didn't have a better plan, not one that would work before she died. There was less risk involved in this than Jack and Teal'C setting themselves adrift in open space (sans space suits) in order to be ringed aboard, at least she had a space suit and an Asgard to take over the controls in the 302 bay when she was through the forcefield. As for Emerson doing it, he's not responsible for Sam (Mitchell is), and he doesn't have his name at the start of the credits.

[KayLyne]

My only problem with it is that it made Sam look like a weenie. In reality, she was explaining the risk. But she didn't have a better plan, not one that would work before she died. There was less risk involved in this than Jack and Teal'C setting themselves adrift in open space (sans space suits) in order to be ringed aboard, at least she had a space suit and an Asgard to take over the controls in the 302 bay when she was through the forcefield. As for Emerson doing it, he's not responsible for Sam (Mitchell is), and he doesn't have his name at the start of the credits.

There would have been an easy and acceptable solution to how it could have been done right. Instead of Cam kicking Marks from his seat, have Cam stand behind Marks & guide him on what moves to make to bring Sam in safely. Cam would have still come out as "saving" Sam, but he wouldn't have come off as extremely ego-centric and taking over the whole scenario himself. After all, all Cam did was push a few buttons. Marks could have easily done the same thing with Cam's guidance.