Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread

[starlover]

Never resist thunking the bum! It may lead to unfortunate side effects...

I shall remember that!!!

*goes of to thunk the bum*

*school this early isn't good for your mental health*

Speaking of mental health

[Devilish Me]

Check this out!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120...n_081120235605

Think Sam had anything to do with it? And notice the quarks!!!!! I thought those things are imaginary!!!!!

[NZNeep]

Check this out!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120...n_081120235605

Think Sam had anything to do with it? And notice the quarks!!!!! I thought those things are imaginary!!!!!

NO! I had just given up on my physics and calculus to train as a nurse, now you're trying to lure me back in? I won't do it!

[Jumble]

[Rachel500]

Is there a good fanfiction story re the above where Sam really lets loose and tells Jack what an ungrateful SOB he is for not appreciating all the hard work everybody did to get him back (being her, she wouldn't toot her own horn as to how much of that work she did; somebody else could do that). There could be humor in the story; not all angsty but with some hurt feelings (Sam's), and Jack having to go out of his way to apologize to people for not appreciating what had been done to bring him back. After all, the military/U.S. Govt. put a lot of time and expense into getting him (one man) back from Edora, and they don't typically do that kind of thing, unless they consider the person to be rescued a very important person. I'm babbling. If somebody hasn't written a story like this, they should. And let Sam actually get to vent how she feels about his (apparent) rejection of everything she did for him. And Jack isn't allowed to make her stop ranting, and he doesn't get to threaten her with insubordination for chewing out a superior officer. After all, she's exhausted. Anybody???

There are quite a few fanfics around that have Sam angry at Jack or Daniel and Teal'c really angry at him on Sam's behalf although I've never kept track of them - you might want to try the fanfic search thread.

The problem for me with Sam being angry at Jack is that I don't think she would be angry so much as devastated and absolutely torn about her own realisation that she (Sam) loves him. She's just spent months working to get him back, denying her own motivations in why she's working so hard and then she gets smacked in the face with the fact that during his isolation, Jack has developed romantic feelings for someone else and in that moment for me, Sam understands that she loves him herself.

And from Sam's perspective at this point, she has no reason at all to believe Jack cares about her as anything more than as a friend. She has no reason to be angry at him for trying to move on with his life and finding love with someone else, and no reason to be angry with him for apparently not being completely happy to be going home. (Although I actually do think Jack is incredibly happy about going home and his words to Laira are more about trying to make his departure better for her than actually truth, just like I think the invitation to come with him is made to try and make her feel better and him less guilty about going home because he had committed to Laira).

While I do think Sam would have been slighty resentful that he perhaps hadn't said thank you even, I just don't think Sam would ever ever confront Jack about it.

While her motivations to find him were personal and as his friend who'd worked incredibly hard to get him home, she deserved a thank you, as a military officer, she was carrying out orders at the end of the day and as her CO he didn't have to thank her for doing her job - because let's face it the only way the government and military would have signed off on Sam's project was because of its potential benefits beyond getting Jack - or any single person back especially as the Tollans had offered to swing by in a year's time. I tend to think Sam would view her resentment at not being thanked as being another sign that she was acting inappropriately.

I also do think that when someone had explained how hard Sam had worked to get him home that he would have thanked her. More, I think it might have been the trigger for him realising that perhaps Sam's feelings for him went beyond team bond and friendship which ultimately leads to the fishing invite.

[Cagranosalis]

The problem for me with Sam being angry at Jack is that I don't think she would be angry so much as devastated and absolutely torn about her own realisation that she (Sam) loves him. She's just spent months working to get him back, denying her own motivations in why she's working so hard and then she gets smacked in the face with the fact that during his isolation, Jack has developed romantic feelings for someone else and in that moment for me, Sam understands that she loves him herself.

I also do think that when someone had explained how hard Sam had worked to get him home that he would have thanked her. More, I think it might have been the trigger for him realising that perhaps Sam's feelings for him went beyond team bond and friendship which ultimately leads to the fishing invite.

I was just about to nod in agreement and say "one of the best post 100 Days fics I read was in the Aftershocks series" when...uh, I realised whose post I have just quoted... doh!

Anyhoo, post 100 days. I think there's resentment there from Sam; confusion maybe and she certainly felt...oh, shall we say jealous? Yeah, jealous will do nicely but I am not entirely sure she realised, even at this point that it was actual honest-to-goodness-forever-and-ever love that she felt. I think she was still in denial then and the reason I think that is because I still think, for both of them, the penny didn't truely drop until they were trapped either side of that forcefield and, even then they pushed it aside until they were forced to confront it. (angstangstansgtansgt )
So, all told, as much as I would love to read and angry-sam-lets-lose-at-Jack fic about it, I really don't think it would be in character for her to do so or, with the slowly developing confusion over her feelings, she'd want to put herself in an emotionally vulnerable place with him like that.


Ahem, anyway, just flying by to say I love the pic game - alas I can't really join in because I have nothing worthy to contribute but please, don't let that stop you... especially the more guttery pictures / discussions. Just. Stop. With the beer bottle talk will you. I was just starting to feel less thunky and I wake up to that and... it's just all so true! Not good. I can't work like this!


Cags

[JenniferJF]

Day late, and a dollar short, and some of you have probably heard these before, but my thoughts on Ripple Effect: (spoilered for excessive verbosity, even for me)

Spoiler:

First, I take this episode with a very LARGE grain of sand as I tend to think a lot of it is 'messing' with fans, especially us S/J shippers and antis. Or, to put it more bluntly, I think of it as the "It does so matter who Sam is sleeping with" episode as the whole thing seems designed to prove just that after years of complaints by various fan factions on various aspects of Sam's personal life.

Because I think the title refers more to the differences in the various AUs than it does to the actual "ripple effect" that made them all get there in the first place. In at least the three timelines we're aware of some of the details in, we have Sam in three very different, IMHO, situations both physically and emotionally and, I believe, romantically. And I think we're given the significant event that changed both those other timelines from ours, and we see the results played out in the episode.

In the 'black' SG-1 universe:

I truly believe its Selmak/Jacobs death that changed everything. Without that catalyzing event, I think enough changed that Sam actually went through and married Pete. We've discussed this before ad nauseum, but I think the whole purpose of telling us Selmak/Jacob didn't die was to set us up for the very real 'ripple' that event caused. Because Jacob never felt pressured to speak up to ensure his daughter's happiness after he was gone, and Jack never felt the need to step forward and make all the sacrifices necessary to be there for her as she broke down after her father had died. So, inertia persisted and Sam married Pete. Which led to the bitterness and the personality change we see in her. And led to her being on her honeymoon and not available to convince Jack to go back in time to get the Egyptian ZPM and to send it to Atlantis. Which led to Atlantis falling, and the lack of a ZPM, which is why they had to cross into our universe to retrieve one.

I also think because Sam wasn't at Area 51, which was tied into her relationship with Jack, she didn't help develop the bomb used in Beachhead, and/or Jack wasn't in the position in DC to send SG1 to destroy the Supergate, so the gate was established and that timeline ended up ahead of ours and they needed to come into ours to save their universe.

In the 'Martouf' Universe:

I believe the significant event from which the ripples spread was the death of Martouf. Without that death, Sam, eventually realizing sometime after D&C that a relationship with Jack was either not possible or too risky, decided to try having one with Martouf instead. So they got together, an experiment which failed, but like the experiment with Pete, it taught her to understand her own heart and realize no one could replace Jack. So she and Jack got together earlier in that timeline than they did in ours, which must have meant in someway he was no longer her direct commander and thus since she was still on SG-1 I assume he wasn't. So when the guy got shot in Heroes, it wasn't an ambush for Jack (remember, that's why they didn't had the number of Jaffa wrong - it was an ambush for Jack specifically as the other Colonel says during the firefight). Which must have meant Janet didn't get shot, but survived.

OTOH, Sam being with Martouf and later with Jack openly meant that during the period of Ascension I don't think she was available for Orlin, being already in a relationship. So she never met him, and he didn't come to assist during the period of Fourth Horseman, and so that AU didn't develop a vaccine/antidote for the ancient plague. Which is why they had to get it from us in Ripple Effect.

It is, of course, highly probably I've WAY overthought this. But I tend to believe TPTB aren't a bunch of hacks and may actually have thought out all this as well. (hence the name, you know 'Ripple Effect' which I believe is another example of titles with double/hidden meanings.)

And of course, hence my alternative title: "It does so matter how Sam is sleeping with"

[Cagranosalis]

And bows to Jenn for that rather excellent and wonderfully verbose analysis of Ripple Effect. Your thoughts on the ship always restore my shippy mojo.

[Rachel500]

So, the next batch of S9 episodes.

I have to admit that in my first viewing of S9, this set of episodes (Babylon through to Stronghold) is effectively where I lost interest. Partly I think because some of the story telling seemed off to me, some of the characterisation of the old team seemed off to me (far too much where they were written very one-dimensionally - Sam as science girl, Teal'c as the Jaffa and Daniel as Ancient expert), and there wasn't a great deal of focus on the new team bonding as a team which might have been expected. Rewatching them since and now, with revised expectations, I actually do enjoy Babylon, Prototype and Collateral Damage but I still think The Fourth Horseman is terrible and Ripple Effect remains OK but still a disappointment.

There are some nods buried among the episodes:

Babylon effectively has Mitchell captured by the Sodan and off on his own all episode but there is a lovely scene in the middle where Landry notes that if they don't come up with something soon, they're going to have to declare Mitchell MIA, and both Sam and Daniel protest - Sam noting that they have spent months looking for personnel in the field before (clearly referencing 100 Days and Paradise Lost) while Daniel brings up the 'never leave a man behind' philosophy that is so fundamental to Jack's personal code. More Landry notes that they've taken sweeps of the systems's moons in trying to find Mitchell - which is a definite nod to Paradise Lost.

The other thing that I picked up on has nothing to do with the ship per se but something Mitchell says to Hikon, the Sodan leader. When Hikon notes that the Priors have demonstrated the power of the Ori so how can they not believe them to be Gods, Mitchell notes that humans for years have believed in Gods without evidence of their existence: it's faith. It just struck me how apt that was in terms of the ship at times. We have to continue having faith that Sam and Jack are together without necessarily seeing it to be believe it at this point in the series.

Prototype is more of a Daniel story than anything else but it's nice to see Landry giving Sam a mission without SG1 and her leading initially. I also think there is a great scene back on the planet with the three old SG1 team-members just doing their thing as they work out the truth.

From a shippy perspective, the initial scene where Khalid wakes up and claims that he was experimented on, has a very sympathetic Sam perhaps because of her own experience at Nirrti's hands - and there are references to Metamorphosis throughout with her noting that the inhabitants Nirrti experimented on developed telekinesis and other powers.

Collateral Damage is a Mitchell story (gives us insight into his relationship with his father and his past as a pilot) but again, Sam's sympathy in regards to his memory experience and the development of the Tok'ra memory device by the Galarans all nods back to D&C, BtS to some degree. She knows how it feels to have your memory altered and how painful retrieving the truth can be, just as she has personal experience of memory devices finding false positives...and I think that's also why Sam stays with Mitchell. What I also like is that really this story for me really underscores that Sam/Cam was never going to happen. Mitchell is clearly looking elsewhere for possible romantic interests and Sam gives absolutely no sign of jealousy - concern but not jealousy.

The Fourth Horseman is just a mess, IMO, as a story. Of course there's the horrendous 'intimacy' comment from Landry in regards to Sam's prior relationship with Orlin which I firmly believe Sam's report of an intimate relationship with Orlin was because of the glowy spirit sharing and was not a reference to a physical relationship (especially as Ascension really shows that she was fond of Orlin but she denied any other feelings beyond that). From a shippy perspective, Sam's discomfort with Orlin especially in the commissary scene where he notes that his feelings haven't changed and he's hopeful that in a few years they can be together, is quite revealing. She clearly is seriously uncomfortable with the idea (and not just because he's a kid) but there is the sense there is something more that she's not sure how to tell him (like she's with Jack). Throughout, she's concerned for him but frustrated that he won't let her help him with the work - and I think it's quite a contrast because Jack trusts her absolutely yet Orlin (despite his proclaimed feelings for her) doesn't which indicates that Orlin doesn't really know her. Poor Orlin though. He ends up brain damaged and not even knowing who she is by the end of the episode.

Ripple Effect - this was one I was really looking forward to but ultimately I was disappointed (a) because of the Martouf almost-kiss business and (b) because they went for the tease rather than just outright stating that AU Sams were with Jack (which would have been more evidence that the couple are together given that the AUs were supposed to have been very close to our own).

(a) The almost-kiss. On first viewing I yelled at the screen. And this almost more than anything else is the closest I came to walking completely away because I did think that in showing that almost-kiss TPTB came very, very close to ruining the ambiguity and letting the audience think what they wanted to in terms of Sam/Jack. Because, for me, if Sam had kissed Martouf that would have completely undermined the idea that she was with Jack as I don't believe a committed Sam to Jack would physically cheat on him.

In rewatching, I can (now I don't jump up and yell at the screen) see that it's an emotional moment - Sam is tired, she's vulnerable, Martouf is worried about his universe and she's offering him comfort that she'll get him back to his Sam (and he notes she hasn't been his Sam for a long time) and suddenly all her old confused feelings bubble momentarily to the surface - and they lean...and stop. And Kvasir is suddenly there informing them he's made the calculations. When Sam thanks him, she's genuinely thankful. So I do subscribe to the belief that that moment when the emotions bubble up is Jolinar's old feelings resurfacing and Sam - who's had years of not having to deal with them, being momentarily overwhelmed given Martouf is right in front of her. She certainly treats him simply as a friend when they leave.

(b) On the teases, I know JM has stated that his assumption in writing was that Sam was with Jack in the AUs. I do like the long distance discussion in the mess, the fact that the other Sam is on maternity leave. The black BDU 'SG1' also hints that Sam has been married and if the intent was all Sam's were with Jack she must be married to Jack. Daniel though was surprised that AU Sam returned after her honeymoon indicating our Sam/Jack are either not married at this point (or got married much sooner).

So, those are my thoughts....

[Rachel500]

[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]
<snipped>
In the 'black' SG-1 universe:

I truly believe its Selmak/Jacobs death that changed everything. Without that catalyzing event, I think enough changed that Sam actually went through and married Pete. We've discussed this before ad nauseum, but I think the whole purpose of telling us Selmak/Jacob didn't die was to set us up for the very real 'ripple' that event caused. Because Jacob never felt pressured to speak up to ensure his daughter's happiness after he was gone, and Jack never felt the need to step forward and make all the sacrifices necessary to be there for her as she broke down after her father had died. So, inertia persisted and Sam married Pete. Which led to the bitterness and the personality change we see in her. And led to her being on her honeymoon and not available to convince Jack to go back in time to get the Egyptian ZPM and to send it to Atlantis. Which led to Atlantis falling, and the lack of a ZPM, which is why they had to cross into our universe to retrieve one.

Always enjoy your thoughts but they do state that their ZPM is depleted suggesting that SG1 did go back, get the ZPM and either it was depleted back then or it was depleted after they got it back and used it.

I don't actually think 'black universe SG1' were bitter or angry or evil. I do think black BDU Sam is 'harder' but given their universe was in peril and so much was at stake, I tend to think she had to be that way to get through the mission.

Their actions in trying to steal the ZPM from our universe may seem 'evil' but as Mitchell says if that was the only surefire way that our SG1 knew would lead them to a ZPM to save their world, how far would they go...as Teal'c once said 'ours is the only reality of consequence.'

In the 'Martouf' Universe:

I believe the significant event from which the ripples spread was the death of Martouf. Without that death, Sam, eventually realizing sometime after D&C that a relationship with Jack was either not possible or too risky, decided to try having one with Martouf instead. So they got together, an experiment which failed, but like the experiment with Pete, it taught her to understand her own heart and realize no one could replace Jack.<snipped>

OTOH, Sam being with Martouf and later with Jack openly meant that during the period of Ascension I don't think she was available for Orlin, being already in a relationship. So she never met him, and he didn't come to assist during the period of Fourth Horseman, and so that AU didn't develop a vaccine/antidote for the ancient plague. Which is why they had to get it from us in Ripple Effect.

Interesting thoughts and I think you're probably right on that: if Sam was with Martouf and Orlin never happened then it's very likely that's why that AU doesn't end up with the vaccine.

[Devilish Me]

NO! I had just given up on my physics and calculus to train as a nurse, now you're trying to lure me back in? I won't do it!

Theehee. Yes, that is my evil plan.

Congrats Oma!!!!!!!!!!!!

I enjoyed so much the game you were playing, and the comments on RL viewing of Ripple Effect. And laughed so hard when I saw the comment on sam and equals end of the world.

I so want to read the new comments but am so tired.

OT:

Spoiler:

Worked all night on papers that are due... oh, in about an hour of so... than have more papers to do... exams... In the show, Sam makes it look so easy, and it's never easy in RL. Damn those shows and their fals representations. Awww, that's not what I really mean. Sam and Jack fooooorrrrr eeeeverrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!! I'm beginning to wonder if this really is OT.

Spoiler:

soooooooo marrieedddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gater62]

Embrace

[Oma-1]

After reading Jenn & Rachel's posts re S9, I'm almost tempted to watch them again - in fact a couple of them I will but the other eps in this week's discussion have things in them that really annoy me, and I haven't put in the effort to get past them to be able to enjoy the rest of it. I was interested especially to read Rachel's analysis of the ship references in the eps, some of them I'd seen myself, other's I'd not thought of.

If anyone's interested (and even if you're not ), here's my opinion of the eps.

Babylon I do like. The refs to previous eps are all accurate and enhance the canon of previous seasons, and the fact that one of them is PL.... . I like the idea of the Sodan too, and there being a race of "Jaffa" unaffected by the Goa'uld.


Prototype - I liked this ep. Daniel was great, really drawing on his experience and dealings with Anubis and ascension etc to make his point. It's so opposite to his normal stance that it clearly shows exactly how strongly he feels about the danger Khalid poses.

On the opposite side is Woolsey, who likes to think that he's a learned a little from all those mission reports of SG1's he's read, Daniel and Sam's attitudes into studying and learning as much as possible from each race they come across, but really misses the point entirely.

I loved the part on the planet too, SG1 almost felt like SG1 again in this ep


Collateral Damage. I have serious issues with the fact that the alien technology was left lying around the hospital without anyone in control of it, but my main gripe is that Mitchell's friend was given clearance to know about the Stargate and the experiences Mitchell had had since joining SG1. I'm not entirely sure how the fact that he was a pilot with Mitchell and also flew the Antarctica mission in LC played to his knowledge of the SGC and exactly who they were fighting with....but I'm fairly sure his clearance level wasn't high enough for the info he received. The fact that he was dying being the excuse to let him know makes me really angry. When Jacob was dying back in S2, he stated that he had top level security clearance, but the fact that he was dying wasn't enough to let him in on the secret of his daughter's job, never mind his best friend.

I'm sure there are reasons and theories out there as to why Mitchell's friend was allowed that classified info, but like I said, I haven't mustered enough energy to care what they are. *shrugs*

I can't remember enough about Sam's convo with Cam to comment on that bit


The Fourth Horseman This one I struggled with the plot (I liked the idea of it but not the execution), no Jack (although it was nice to see George again) and the whole Orlin as a kid thing I realise some of it was beyond tptb's ability to control, SPF being unavailable was a major problem (I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing him on screen again ). But I found casting him as such a young child was just wierd, freaky and gave me the creeps during the commissary scene


Ripple Effect This one I enjoyed for the most part. It would have been nice to have it stated (even if only in one reality - although JM's comments did feel like vindication ) that Sam was with Jack, I liked the plot, even "evil SG1", loved the whole they don't know that we know that they know thing, having Janet back was wonderful (*huggles the Doc*) and the room full of Carter's was fantastic! All that was missing was Jack's expression on seeing them all But the Martouf thing put a real big dampener on the ep for me. In fact, I'm tempted to re-edit the ep and take that scene out, then I can just enjoy the whole thing


I am looking forward to the discussions of the back end of S9, for me SG1 returned in Arthur's Mantle...but I'll leave those comments for another week

[Jumper_One]

Waiting (Im) Patiently writes: “Brad’s Q&A?? Before you guys break?”

Answer: Brad has four scripts to work on in addition to a series to prep. The Q&A will have to wait until I get back from Tokyo.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...d-the-mailbag/

[jasminaGo]

Waiting (Im) Patiently writes: “Brad’s Q&A?? Before you guys break?”

Answer: Brad has four scripts to work on in addition to a series to prep. The Q&A will have to wait until I get back from Tokyo.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...d-the-mailbag/

Four scrips?