Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Akamaimom]

I don't think Jack's in denial, I think he's fatalistic. As in, what does it matter how he feels, he can't do anything about it. Why should he torture himself?

I believe Jack is pretty fatalistic overall. He'll fight like a demon (especially for others), but he also accepts the idea of death readily.

Seaboe

The idea of HIS death, though, isn't what would make it hardest for him to advance his relationship with Sam. It's the idea of HER death that freaks him out. His last experience at loving someone (plural) ended with two forms of loss, so I don't think that he is quite ready in the beginning to throw caution (and his carefully erected walls) to the wind and try again.

And it is a form of denial--he's not saying so much "I'm not in love with her", as he's saying, "I won't love her." Which is a subtle difference, but very pertinent. Even though the feelings are there, he's making a choice as to HOW to feel them.

[Rachel500]

Now see that's an excellent point right there. That first fishing invite had to mean something. Sam was very surprised and Jack tried to make it sound casual, but when she didn't accept right away he backed down quickly, like he was nervous about it. But I think the second invite is even more telling. After a week on a planet with just one another and Teal'c (who we all know is very discreet), they are so much more relaxed and happy. I'm not saying anything *happened* but they both had to have figured something out.

I agree. I think there was some acknowledgement in that three weeks of them *liking* each other, something that got their feelings into the open enough for them to acknowledge it enough, acknowledge they weren't going to do anything about it and so clear the air enough that the second fishing invitation is much more relaxed and more of a "one day" thing than the nervous tension that filled the first.

For me, the D&C forceshield scene shows them both realising not that there were feelings but the strength of them, both their own and the other's. And that's the shock that's written on Jack's face and the agony on Sam's.

Re the "When" debate. I've just started with Season 1 again, and I may be naive but it seems to me that from the beginning there was something there, an instant attraction that developed into something far more tangible over the years. But I do think it was that confession in D&C that made Jack actually realise that yikes "I've fallen for her"!

Whereas I see the confession scene as very much Jack admitting to something he was already deeply aware of.

I'm kind of with Akamaimom: Jack's complete denseness when Sam approaches him with the whole 'we are keeping something from the machine', I think is because he really doesn't think his feelings for Sam and what happened with them on a personal level would be a factor in the machine thinking they were lying.

But the fact that he *knows* as soon as she mentions the phrase *can't admit to given our working relationship and military ranks* and the way he looks down, makes me think the phrase is familiar to him and that they have discussed it in those exact vague terms before.

[gater62]

Re 'When did Sam and Jack first know?' I agree with Rachel and Jenn, mostly, despite the timing disagreement in 100 days . Although now Hedwig has mentioned 'Into the Fire' (ignoring the whole hug debate for now) the one thing that stood out for me, was how Sam went back for Jack, despite what Makepeace was saying. Yes she did go to blow up the power generator, but not until she'd gone to look for Jack. Maybe it was just the whole 'don't leave anyone behind' philosophy but it always felt more than that to me. Not sure she realised that herself back then though.

So have I just agreed again? Yes I think I have....

You read my mind!

[LadyGalaxyJ]

For me, the D&C forceshield scene shows them both realising not that there were feelings but the strength of them, both their own and the other's. And that's the shock that's written on Jack's face and the agony on Sam's.

Whereas I see the confession scene as very much Jack admitting to something he was already deeply aware of.

That's what I thought too. They are taken aback by the strength of their feelings, feelings that they both tried to deny. I think until then, they thought they were successful at denying what they felt. But the force field scene forced them to realize it was the complete opposite. Not only have they fallen for one another, but they are somehow submerge by its intensity.

But the fact that he *knows* as soon as she mentions the phrase *can't admit to given our working relationship and military ranks* and the way he looks down, makes me think the phrase is familiar to him and that they have discussed it in those exact vague terms before.

Interesting, but IMO, they never talked about it before because it would be acknowledging that the feelings exist. Since I believe that prior to D&C they are both trying to tell themselves that the feelings aren't real, I don't see the exchange take place before. Although, I do think they've talked about it after. And had they talked about it before, I don't think Jack would be that surprise when Sam tells him that they lied.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

And it is a form of denial--he's not saying so much "I'm not in love with her", as he's saying, "I won't love her."

Okay, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I don't agree that he's in denial. He isn't saying either "I'm not in love" (isn't that a song? ) or "I won't love her." He's saying "It doesn't matter that I love her."

Seaboe

[Akamaimom]

Okay, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I don't agree that he's in denial. He isn't saying either "I'm not in love" (isn't that a song? ) or "I won't love her." He's saying "It doesn't matter that I love her."

Seaboe

I guess I don't get the distinction.

The way you see it (which is fantastic--we all see things differently to some degree) is that he figures they're going to die anyway, so it doesn't matter that he's in love with her? So he isn't going to act on his feelings because it won't matter in the long run?

Yeah--I can see that. Haven't thought of that before, but it works, too.

[LadyGalaxyJ]

And it is a form of denial--he's not saying so much "I'm not in love with her", as he's saying, "I won't love her."

He's saying "It doesn't matter that I love her."

You had me thinking a while. I'm still not sure how to phrase this, but I'll try anyway.

I don't like the idea of Jack saying "It doesn't matter that I love her", because then I find it sounds as if he didn't care at all about the feeling. But I've always believe that Jack is very close to his own emotions. So, I don't picture him thinking that doesn't matter, because I think it would for him.

The difference for me with what Akamaimom said is that "I won't love her" sounds more like a choice he would make. I tend to prefer that interpretation because the other way it would sound too cold-hearted for Jack.

IMO, of course!

I'm not sure how that came out though... sorry. *sigh*

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

My last try at explaining myself. When Jack says "It doesn't matter that I love her" he's not talking about what he feels, he's talking about what he can do. It doesn't matter whether or not he loves her because he cannot act on that love. He's fatalistic. The rules prevent them from being together unless one of the gives up doing something s/he loves. He can't do that himself (because he feels what he does is too important; more important than what he feels) and he would never ask her to do that.

Since he cannot act on his feelings, they are not important. He can't allow them to interfere with what they have to do nor can he let them interfere with her happiness. If that means encouraging her to date others and even marry, than that is what he will do, because his feelings are not important.

Seaboe

[Akamaimom]

I think that, in the end, there are about a bazillion different ways for people to look at why they didn't act on their feelings earlier.

I guess we could go pedantic and state that the main reason is that TPTB didn't want to go there, or that the regs prevented it, but I think that these are non-pedantic people, and the intricate dance that was their relationship is more than that.

I mean here we are, four years after the show is canceled, STILL talking about it. Kudos to them for making it not only so awesome, but also so intriguing.

I think that Jack is fully aware of his feelings--he just chooses not to act on them. For whatever reason--and I have gone over SO many of them in my head (he's not good enough for her, he's too old for her, he feels guilty for what happened to Charlie and doesn't feel like he deserves a second chance. . .) he chooses not to.

But so does she--she's the one that suggests leaving it in the room. They're both sublimating those feelings for whatever reasons, and isn't it awesome that we all have different theories as to why? It makes these discussions and the entire Shipdom SO much more interesting!

And Seaboe--I totally get you now. Thanks! And I would have to agree with that, too. The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It's all rolled up in one big ball of delicious shippy goodness.

[LadyGalaxyJ]

And Seaboe--I totally get you now. Thanks! And I would have to agree with that, too. The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It's all rolled up in one big ball of delicious shippy goodness.

Same thing here. I get your point. And the bolded is true.

[Cagranosalis]

My last try at explaining myself. When Jack says "It doesn't matter that I love her" he's not talking about what he feels, he's talking about what he can do. It doesn't matter whether or not he loves her because he cannot act on that love. He's fatalistic. The rules prevent them from being together unless one of the gives up doing something s/he loves. He can't do that himself (because he feels what he does is too important; more important than what he feels) and he would never ask her to do that.

Since he cannot act on his feelings, they are not important. He can't allow them to interfere with what they have to do nor can he let them interfere with her happiness. If that means encouraging her to date others and even marry, than that is what he will do, because his feelings are not important.

Seaboe

Yes, actually that's very true (IMO anyway).

Reading through the discussions about "when they knew" I do find there's a lot more emotional awareness attributed to Jack than most men see things. OK, let me try an explain that better. Women, in general, tend to be quite introspective; we examine our feelings and our motivations on regular - if not constant - basis. Men, in my experience, tend to act on what is relevant in the here and now; if there's an emotional crisis they will address it at the time but they won't dwell on it, or try and pre-empt their feelings by examining how they will react/feel if x,y or z might happen - unless they have to or are forced to do so.
I know that's a bit of a generalisation but it's one based on what I've observed among the many men in my life... ok, that came out wrong! I meant I have lots of brothers, cousins, nephews etc. who all deal with emotional stuff in a similar pragmatic way.

That's not to say Jack has never thought about his feelings for Sam before the forceshield moment; I am sure that he had and was pretty well aware what was going on in his head and heart, but I think he was particularly good at denying to himself that there was anything there he could not keep a lid on. It was only when they stood there, and he knew he was going to die because he couldn't live without her that, as Jenn put it, he realised it really did matter. So while I'm happy to attribute Jack to having had developing feelings for Sam over a period of time from fairly early on, I really don't think he questioned them deeply enough to know how dangerous they were. Likewise, ongoing from that moment; once it was out there, job done and they confessions made - in order for the status quo to exist - he had to put it aside. Had Sam not made the offer to "keep it in the room", would it have been different? Probably. But I think he took a lead from her then that she wanted to put the lid firmly back on the can of worms they'd opened with only minimal escapees. And thus is continued for Jack, and he existed in that aware-but-not-really-thinking-about- it state for several more years, until the point came when Kerry and Sam both forced him to confront those feelings and to examine exactly what they meant and how important to his happiness they were.

Sam, on the other hand, I think was slowly becoming aware over time and I think she might have had an idea before this but the moment it's obvious (to me) that she knew that the tingle and affection she might have brushed aside as a kind of hero-worship like crush, was actually something a lot more meaningful, was during A Hundred Days and that moment with Janet (again Jenn added the perfect subtext to that conversation). But I think it was the end scene - that crushing snub in favour of going to Laira - that really sealed the deal as far as her awareness was concerned. And I love Rachel500's Aftershocks fic on this because the opening lines seem to sum it up nicely. But, even if she'd suspected Jack might reciprocate (which I don't think she did), I think that moment with Laira probably did more to convince her it was completely one sided than anything else.

That did change though; the first fishing invite was where they started to realise there was a mutual thing going on, and then, yes, I'm in the school of thought that something (perhaps unspoken) significant happened while they were stranded off world that explains how at ease they are with each other when they get back. That second invite - isn't really an invite; more Jack verbally testing the waters to see if this status quo between them is still ok with her. And then subsequent invites exist for much the same reason. To borrow Jenn's approach, the subtext to "wanna go fishing? is "Are you still ok with things as they are?". I'm not sure if Sam really gets that or thinks the invites are more his way of trying to say "I just want to be friends" (and the fact she thinks he's given up on her by the time we get to Grace seem to support the latter). Either way she does eventually "get" what fishing really is all about and, meanwhile, this angst fan got more than enough to keep her a happy shipper so it's all good.

[SamJackShipper93]

Haha, with the whole "I don't love him", "I won't love her", "It doesn't matter if I love him/her", perhaps it's appropriate to post this vid!

I find that it suits both of them very well!

[Pol]

*Popping in*

We're back!

Spoiler:

Vancouver was brilliant, the wilds of BC brilliant-er, and the rest of Canada divine. Having a hard time typing as I broke my left index finger halfway into the trip. Will post a link to pics when I've got them d/l'd.

Loving the "debate" I've come home to!

And...well, we know. Sam loves Jack and back-atcha!

[Lucycat]

Well, as usual, I'm late to the debate, but I'll agree that Sam first realized the depth of her feelings in 100 Days.... but may I add Point of View as food for thought! Sam has a pretty shocking look on her face as she watches Jack kiss Dr. Carter in the final scene. I think that perhaps she is shocked to realize that she's jealous of her alternate self and that her feelings may be more than a crush.

[Lucycat]

As for Jack... he's obviously attracted from the get-go, despite his dislike for scientists. And I agree his deeper feelings develop over the course of the first 3 seasons, but he suppressed it for any number of reasons already mentioned. There is a line in one of my favorite novels, Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen, that sums it up (IMO).

I cannot fix on the hour, or the look, or the words, which laid the foundation. It is too long ago. I was in the middle before I knew that I had begun. -Mr. Darcy