Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Wot...not "limpid pools of limpidness"?....*gigglesnort*....


Deeds xx *who really should be in bed because she's tired out*....

Nah, I leave the 'limpid pools of limpidness' to jdjunkie.

Sigh, taking the mickey out of S/J is like shooting fish in a barrel, it really is too easy.

FF

[Coela Bellatore]

D'oh, silly you.
What first gave the incoming missile of shippy doom away? The tinkly piano music? The lingering two-shots? The badly-written "Sir, about ..." "I know" conversations?
It was indeed quite refreshing to find a show that didn't appear to be following formula. And then ... oh dear.

Well its better than most real world Air Force romances, they mostly involve you walking into the room and realizing that someone is naked and there is electric slap bass playing.

[Killdeer]

Does a TV show need a romance?

Would you all mind if I took this question over to the Ship Discussion thread? I'm curious to see what kind of discussion results. And it seems like our last topic over there died.

[Callista]

Would you all mind if I took this question over to the Ship Discussion thread? I'm curious to see what kind of discussion results. And it seems like our last topic over there died.

I was actually thinking about that myself, so I say go right ahead!

[Khentkawes]

Zoe/Wash (Firefly)
Sheridan/Delenn (Babylon 5)
Jed Bartlet/Abbey Bartlet (The West Wing)
Jadzia/Worf (Deep Space 9)

Hmmmm.... interesting. It's moments like this that I'm reminded that I don't actually watch much TV. From some things I've heard, I really should give Babylon 5 a chance, as well. I hear nothing but good things. Never watched any West Wing, but it's good to know it has a well-written couple. And as a Trekie... you'd think I'd have an opinion on DS9... but somehow it never worked for me, so I only watched a few random pieces of a few random episodes. I'm not a Worf fan though, so that could be a problem. Thanks for the answers! It's given me something to think about (and new shows to consider ).

Yeah, there were plenty of obstacles for John and Aeryn to overcome, but I can’t help but love them because the chemistry was overwhelming and it was clear how much they loved each other pretty early on. It's one of the few OTP's that I have. Even the couples I listed above, I don't/didn't ship actively at all (since I'm a non-shipper at heart ) but I enjoyed them immensely and was happy that they were so well written.

Agreed. The chemistry and the brilliance of Ben and Claudia are the reasons it works. Plus, I firmly believe that opposites attract, and in the case of John and Aeryn, I think their differences are what made them work well together... with a fair amount of sparkage thrown in. Oh, now I want to go watch Farscape. *sighs happily thinking of Farscape*

Thank you; I hope it doesn't get too crowded in here.


I feel the same way.

And, err... on topic: Sam/Jack - do not want.

LOL. Yes, it could definitely get crowded!

And hey... on-topic? What's that?

I don't think every show needs a romance. When I first started watching SG1 it was with fairly random episodes on the marathons. I didn't see any S/J for ages. I thought "how refreshing that they haven't paired off 'the girl' with the lead." Silly me.

Silly you indeed. That was pretty much what I thought too. I was so impressed by the team feeling and the fact that the show actually developed friendships between the characters. Then I caught on to the attempt to pair "the girl" with "the leading guy" and I moaned. Seriously, why does this have to happen on 90% of TV shows?!

"Her cerulean blue spheres locked with his chocolate brown orbs..."

I could go on, but it's possibly against the Geneva Convention on the grounds of cruel and unusual punshment.

Did you really have to share that little bit of sappiness? *groan* Against the Geneva Convention, indeed.

Wot...not "limpid pools of limpidness"?....*gigglesnort*....

*snort* *chuckle*

Would you all mind if I took this question over to the Ship Discussion thread? I'm curious to see what kind of discussion results. And it seems like our last topic over there died.

I have a feeling I killed the discussion over there. Not sure how, and I didn't mean to.

I don't think it would be a problem to pose the question over there. You wouldn't be quoting anyone's opinions, just paraphrasing a question. I believe as long as you avoid directly quoting someone else or directly mentioning a specific poster by name, it should be fine. At least, this is my personal opinion about the issue. *shrug* Not that I'm an expert on forum etiquette.

[Coela Bellatore]

I have a feeling I killed the discussion over there. Not sure how, and I didn't mean to.

I think I killed it, nobody likes Monty Python references anymore.

[Khentkawes]

I think I killed it, nobody likes Monty Python references anymore.

Lol. I'm just not well versed enough in Monty Python to get the references. But I've seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Does that count?

[Coela Bellatore]

Lol. I'm just not well versed enough in Monty Python to get the references. But I've seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Does that count?

Thats what it was from, I figured everyone must have seen it once or they don't deserve to be alive.

[Frostfox]

Ok, that made me Darn those ponies!

That was me forgetting where I was posting, OMG PONIES!!!1!!! is a LJ thing.

No. No, it doesn't. Maybe it's just the non-shipper in me, but I am just so incredibly bored with the majority of romances on tv. They're just... so cliché and one-dimensional and predictable and *sighs* annoying. It's like they all follow the same path: they want to be together but they can't - there's always some kind of obstacle in the way and then there's angst angst angst and looks of longing and they say one thing but mean another and yadayadayada ad infinitum. And I just feel like shouting: just get on with it already or move on!

That's pretty much Sam/Jack in a nutshell to me. They can't be together but they can't move on either, so we get this weird mixture of shippy scenes - like the oh-so-awkward scenes in Lost City and Threads where they don't actually SAY anything, they just dance around the subject yet again and it just feels so out of place. Like those scenes are just thrown in there because, hey: romance! It doesn't make for very good storytelling, at all.

And there ARE tv couples out there who are written very well; not many but they do exist. So, it's not like I'm anti ALL romances on tv. Just the badly written ones.

EDIT: Ha, Khentkawes, I type too slowly. It's like we share a brain sometimes.

I just don't think that real adults, over the age of about 20, behave like that.
I want to see characters who act like adults, no stupid, angsty, melodramatic rubbish which would shame a teenager.
If you are going to write the 2IC falling for her boss, make it believable, give us real drama, with consequences and repercussions, rather than schoolyard eye batting and stumbling non-conversations.
But, of course, they couldn't give us real drama, real consequences because that's not what SG1 was about, it was an action adventure show, so they had to write within the confines of that genre. So again, why bother? Why tease some of your fanbase with such an inept storyline while annoying the rest?

I thought Wash and Zoe on Firefly were a great couple. They were cute and funny together and obviously in love but could still do their jobs and have deep, meaningful relationships with their friends or plastic dinosaurs. Zoe could go off on dangerous missions with the handsome leader and never was there any question that she loved Wash or that Wash was jealous. Of course, they were already married when the show started. I thought (and my husband has mentioned as well) that they were a great example of how marriage can be shown as trusting and respectful but still have passion and romance. (And, yes, marriage can have passion and romance!!! It really happens!!!)

But, I don't think all TV shows need romance. And they certainly don't need UST. When it comes down to it, I think its the UST that bothers me the most on television because I think that is something that is fairly rare in real life (at least after high school and college). I think most real people over the age of twenty-one or so either go tell the other person how they feel within a couple of weeks or months of feeling it or they realize it's not going to happen and they move on. As far as I can tell, it's only in novels and on television and movies that these feelings go on for years and years and years (unless one of the people has some sort of obsession or something). I can see why some people would think that UST is entertaining (apparently, most people think that if the entertainment industry is to be believed), but I just get frustrated and annoyed with it.

Yep.
Case in point, my best friend and her partner. They both started out in abusive relationships with other people, even though they loved each other before marrying others (they both married due to pregnancies - they 'did the right thing'). They stayed in those relationships for years due to family duty but eventually ended up divorcing and marrying each other. It was never easy (and involved moving continents/divorce/letters/phone calls and all manner of drama over the years) but they got on with their lives and gradually sorted themselves out. Without acting like lovestruck teenagers. They knew how each other felt and the hurdles involved, they acted like adults. Is it too much to hope that writers could write TV characters like adults also?

Killdeer, feel free to pose that question where ever you want.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Nah, I leave the 'limpid pools of limpidness' to jdjunkie. FF

Ex-queeze me ... I'm very proud of that description wot I wrote.

And on topic: Sam/Jack ... um, no thanks.

[Killdeer]

I have a feeling I killed the discussion over there. Not sure how, and I didn't mean to.

What is this, group guilt? I thought I was the one who killed it, with my Sam/Cam thing.

I'll go ahead and post the question then, and see where it goes.

[Khentkawes]

Thats what it was from, I figured everyone must have seen it once or they don't deserve to be alive.

Well, in that case, I'm just forgetful. Lol.

What is this, group guilt? I thought I was the one who killed it, with my Sam/Cam thing.

I'll go ahead and post the question then, and see where it goes.

Lol. Apparently we need a group therapy session for this.

On and to follow the trend...
On-topic: Sam/Jack - do not want.

More teamy goodness and friendship moments for me, please!

[Killdeer]

Lol. Apparently we need a group therapy session for this.

[Frostfox]

Some good tv couples, that IMO, were written well:

Zoe/Wash (Firefly)
Sheridan/Delenn (Babylon 5)
Jed Bartlet/Abbey Bartlet (The West Wing)
Jadzia/Worf (Deep Space 9)

I agree with Callista about Wash/Zoe and Firefly; they were such a good couple, for all the reasons listed and the show itself... well, it's been how many years now since the cancellation and I'm STILL not over it. One of the best first seasons of any show ever, imo.

I'm resisting watching Firefly, not because I don't think I will like it but because I think I will and I will be annoyed by it's cancellation. I have it on DVD and will get round to watching it.

Babylon 5: Sheridan/Delenn is, if not the heart of the show then at least at the heart of the show, I would say. And Delenn was such a strong character in her own right. I still get chills everytime I watch the "If you value your lives, be elsewhere" scene. (I highly recommend the show to anyone who hasn’t watched it already. And if you have, then you should watch it again. )

Liked B5, but Sheridan/Delenn didn't really interest me (I adored Londo, K'Gar, Garibaldi and Susan Ivanova - non of whom were characters defined by their romances).

The West Wing, well, let me just start off by saying that before I watched this show, I would have undergone triple root canal work before even entertaining the idea of watching a show about politics. But it is SO well written, especially the first 4 seasons, with Aaron Sorkin at the helm. (I admit I only watched sporadically after that, but those first 4 seasons are GOLD). And the Jed/Abbey relationship is so funny and brilliant and supportive, but there's also realistic arguments and conflicts and it's just all so well done.

Wordy McWord. Early West Wing is gold dust. I knew nothing about US politics either, I had to watch it with subtitles on so I could understand what was happening! Jed and Abby felt real.

With Deep Space Nine and Jadzia/Worf, I love their relationship because they were both such strong characters and Jadzia wasn't the least bit afraid to challenge and stand up to Worf and it just felt like they were on equal footing. I seem to have a thing for couples where the female character isn't afraid to challenge the man they're in love with and to stand up for what they believe in and get into arguments and still trust that their love for each other is strong enough to survive.

Never really warmed to Worf. Thought the Jadzia/Worf/Bashir triangle was interesting as it wasn't over done; Julian moved on (to the luscious Leeta) and got Dax in the end anyway - I always got the feeling that no matter which Trill it ended up in, Julian would have been attracted to Dax.

But, of course, he loved Miles the most. Canon, too.

Odo/Kira was good and SFnal with Changeling sex and the like. And none of Kira's relationships ever made her look weak. (Laughs at the thought of Kira doing the Doe Eyes of Deth!)

My favourite relationship (apart from the deeply strange Bashir/Garak) was Sisko/Cassidy which was just so believable despite all it's hiccoughs, Joseph, Jennifer, Jake, arguments, arrests, ascension (I believe Sisko, Daniel and Cordelia, in Angel, were all ascended at about the same time, there's an interesting plot bunny for you).

But if you're like me and enjoy the platonic relationships the most, then I just have to say: watch season 4 of Dr Who. One of the best written relationships I have ever seen on tv is the one between The Doctor and Donna.

Haven't forgiven Who for Eccleston leaving. Sulks.

Yeah, there were plenty of obstacles for John and Aeryn to overcome, but I can’t help but love them because the chemistry was overwhelming and it was clear how much they loved each other pretty early on. It's one of the few OTP's that I have. Even the couples I listed above, I don't/didn't ship actively at all (since I'm a non-shipper at heart ) but I enjoyed them immensely and was happy that they were so well written.

Never 'got' Farscape, perhaps I need to watch it all in order from the beginning?

And, err... on topic: Sam/Jack - do not want.

On that, we can all agree.

Even the Shippy Hound of Lurve hates it

FF

[Khentkawes]

Never 'got' Farscape, perhaps I need to watch it all in order from the beginning?

Lol. Yeah, that would help. I can't guarantee that you will "get" Farscape. Some people don't, and that's just the way it is with that show. However, if you don't watch it in order, your chances of "getting" it rapidly decrease to about... um, zero? Or maybe 1 in 50. Lol. Seriously, I can't fathom watching it out of order.

I was hesitant with Farscape and became a total convert, so I'm always happy to encourage others to give it a shot. But I do think you have to watch it in order. Typically, if you watch the entire first season in order, and still find it boring by the end of season 1, then it's just not for you. When I got to "Family Ties" (the season 1 finale) I knew that I was hooked and that this show was worth my time. But it took watching all of season 1 to get there. *shrug* It's definitely a commitment, and not for the faint of heart.

And to make this post on-topic instead of just an argument for why Farscape rocks... I think Farscape and SG-1 are interesting when taken in comparison to one another. Because the ship in Farscape is much more obvious. You can't ignore it... at least, not past the middle of season 2. And yet, somehow it doesn't bother me nearly as much.

Part of it has to do with the way they handled the cast. I felt that Ben and Claudia were clearly put forth as "the leads" in Farscape. Whereas I never got that feeling with SG-1. Sure, technically RDA was "the lead" for seasons 1-8 (with varying levels of success, since he didn't really act like a lead in seasons 6-8 IMO). But at least to me, the other three always felt like they were of equal status. In Farscape, there's a kind of assumption that it's Ben and Claudia, and then everyone else. Except that it's not. For all the ship and all the emphasis on John and Aeryn, it feels like everyone gets plenty of material and plenty of time to shine (I've found a lot of 'Scapers insist on calling the show an "ensemble" to emphasize the importance of all the characters). And (after Family Ties, at least) there is sort of "team" feel (dysfunctional team, but still team ). For instance, I don't feel like the relationship between John and Aeryn ever interfered with D'argo and John's friendship. Or Aeryn's relationship with Pilot. Whereas in SG-1, I felt like the ship served to distance Sam and Jack from Teal'c and Daniel. And oddly enough, it seems to me that Sam and Daniel's friendship suffered the most from the ship.

So, IMO, Farscape had more overt ship than in SG-1, but it was less detrimental to the "team/family" feeling, and it did not overshadow the other character's relationships with each other. Again, all my personal opinion. But for me, that's part of the reason why I accept Farscape ship, but not S/J on SG-1. Of course, they are very different shows, and you could argue that Farscape was more focused on character relationships. So that might make a difference as well.