Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

OK, well I plan on buying and watching it regardless. (These movies make perfect birthday or Christmas or Mother's Day presents for my mother and then she usually wants me to watch with her.)

I will report back when the time comes!!

I'll hold you to that!

When is it due to be released, sometime in 2010 I assume?

FF

[Callista]

I'll hold you to that!

When is it due to be released, sometime in 2010 I assume?

FF

I have no idea. Hopefully either right before Christmas, early May or early September. Otherwise she might buy it herself before I get the chance!

[Frostfox]

Wow, I'm really not getting my memos, then. I guess I'm not a real person, by that definition. Hey wait, how does the "no man or woman can work together without becoming romantically involved" rule work if all the guys I work with are married? 'Cause that's just wrong. *shudders*

You are a figment of my demented imagination, obviously.

This is where shipping in general gets to me... the kids! I swear that 80% of all ship fanfic out there ends with a happy little family and lots of kids. Now, I do occasionally want to read some shipy fanfic (not S/J, obviously, but there are other pairings that I find enjoyable if written well), and I get tired of all the kid cliches (and yes, kids must always be named after someone from the show. It's apparently an unwritten rule. Or maybe it's written in some shippers handbook somewhere. I wouldn't know).

I only have one word for you...

Beagles.

It's not just het fanfic writers.

I think (not my area of fannish experience) that some fanfic writers want an idealized relationship, a fantasy happy ever after with themselves in the role of the female member of the pairing. Not true for all, obviously, but certainly a pattern for the younger, less experienced writers. Sometimes it's painfully obvious that they have never had a real adult relationship, it's all too fluffy and perfect.
Interesting study showed that too much romantic tosh (music/romantic comedies etc) ruins real relationships.
http://www2.canada.com/life/relation...tml?id=1298332

I don't totally agree with you here, either. Partially because I have a very different take on Vala, although that's probably a topic for another thread.
When they managed to avoid the romance with Sam, they did much better with characterization. With Vala... well, I only see about two romantic scenes (if you mean with Daniel... there's more with Tomin), and those didn't bother me since they were all "potential" and "could be" instead of continuously harping on the unexpressed feelings. And there weren't these repetitious scenes of characters trying to get up the nerve to discuss "feelings" which they apparently have never verbalized, and can't name more precisely than "feelings." That's why the romance stuff really got silly. It was too vague to be a real romance, and too in-your-face to ignore. I could ignore anything with Vala because it was either part of the plot (Tomin) or subtle enough that I didn't mind.

So, I think TPTB are capable of writing female characters (though it's clearly harder for them), they should just avoid emphasizing romance, because then they write their characters into a corner where they have no direction to develop as people. IMO, of course.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. It would all be very dull if we all agreed all the time.
They wrote Janet pretty well, but of course, they never wrote any romance for her. I would have liked more Janet-Cassie and would have loved, loved, loved some more Janet-Cassie-Sam. So unusual to have two women, not romantically connected, involved in raising a child. I helped to bring up my best friend's daughters, it's something close to my heart.

ITA on both points. I have had to reevaluate my view of Sam, because when I started watching in season 7, I really disliked her. But that was primarily because I started watching during a shipy hay-day. Once I was able to separate Sam from the ship (which, honestly, took a long while), I realized that she does have some interesting development on occasion. It's just that TPTB relied on the ship in order to provide "character development" far too often.

It was lazy writing. Sam (and more importantly, Amanda) deserved better. Sam had some good plot lines, she should have had more, particularly in later seasons.

That would make some amount of sense. For a while, I (jokingly) toyed with the idea that Sam was infected by an injured Hathor at the beginning of season 3 (somehow she didn't die, it was all a trick for the sake of this theory ), and that Hathor could only take control on rare occasions. According to this theory, Hathor wasn't fully blended until season 4 (hence the sudden "feelings" scene in D&C... which Jack went along with because Hathor was clearly drugging various guys at this point). It would explain the emphasis on Sam's love life, because we know that Hathor used nishta to make guys become, uh, infatuated with her. And it would explain why Sam seems to have dual personalities (Hathor wasn't very good at mimicking Sam's behavior when she succeeded in taking control).

And before anyone gets bent out of shape, I'll emphasize again that I'm joking here. But, the joke is based on how strangely Sam seems to act at times, and on how she seems to have so many men interested in her.

Laughs, well at least it's another SF take on the scenario, rather than just poor writing.

FF

[Callista]

They wrote Janet pretty well, but of course, they never wrote any romance for her. I would have liked more Janet-Cassie and would have loved, loved, loved some more Janet-Cassie-Sam. So unusual to have two women, not romantically connected, involved in raising a child. I helped to bring up my best friend's daughters, it's something close to my heart.

Actually, they almost did and what I saw I liked. In "Hathor" Janet mentions her ex-husband in a way that showed that she had had a normal (albeit disfunctional) relationship with a man that didn't work out because I guess he was pretty sexist and it ended and she moved on in a healthy way. Then, the reporter guy (Emmet Bregman?) asked her out while they were having lunch in the first half of "Heroes". We just got a couple of minutes, but during that little interaction Janet noticed his wedding ring, asked him about it, told him she had an adopted alien daughter and cut right through everything and told him that, yes, she would be happy to go out with him. She was mature, confident, a little flirty and managed to be feminine yet assertive the whole time. That's how adults act! (Or at least, that's how I think adults should act.) Of course, we all know what happened immediately after that.....

[DSG1]

I haven't bought Continuum yet, I'll get it when it becomes cheap enough, or second hand off ebay, I suppose for me, SG1 is pretty much over, there are other things to spend my money on.

FF

I waited till they were cheaper.

Then I snagged em because I'm a junkie lol.

[jckfan55]

ITA on both points. I have had to reevaluate my view of Sam, because when I started watching in season 7, I really disliked her. But that was primarily because I started watching during a shipy hay-day. Once I was able to separate Sam from the ship (which, honestly, took a long while), I realized that she does have some interesting development on occasion. It's just that TPTB relied on the ship in order to provide "character development" far too often.

It's like they forgot what worked in the past. The characters developed through their team work. Sure, each had episodes where he or she was highlighted, but you didn't need a "Daniel episode" or "Sam episode" to come to be really attached to the characters and learn what made them tick.

[Frostfox]

Actually, they almost did and what I saw I liked. In "Hathor" Janet mentions her ex-husband in a way that showed that she had had a normal (albeit disfunctional) relationship with a man that didn't work out because I guess he was pretty sexist and it ended and she moved on in a healthy way. Then, the reporter guy (Emmet Bregman?) asked her out while they were having lunch in the first half of "Heroes". We just got a couple of minutes, but during that little interaction Janet noticed his wedding ring, asked him about it, told him she had an adopted alien daughter and cut right through everything and told him that, yes, she would be happy to go out with him. She was mature, confident, a little flirty and managed to be feminine yet assertive the whole time. That's how adults act! (Or at least, that's how I think adults should act.) Of course, we all know what happened immediately after that.....

I had forgotten about Bregman, you are quite correct.
Sigh, I still miss Janet.

FF

[jckfan55]

Actually, they almost did and what I saw I liked. In "Hathor" Janet mentions her ex-husband in a way that showed that she had had a normal (albeit disfunctional) relationship with a man that didn't work out because I guess he was pretty sexist and it ended and she moved on in a healthy way. Then, the reporter guy (Emmet Bregman?) asked her out while they were having lunch in the first half of "Heroes". We just got a couple of minutes, but during that little interaction Janet noticed his wedding ring, asked him about it, told him she had an adopted alien daughter and cut right through everything and told him that, yes, she would be happy to go out with him. She was mature, confident, a little flirty and managed to be feminine yet assertive the whole time. That's how adults act! (Or at least, that's how I think adults should act.) Of course, we all know what happened immediately after that.....

LOL. This shall not stand! Janet was in character.

[Frostfox]

It's like they forgot what worked in the past. The characters developed through their team work. Sure, each had episodes where he or she was highlighted, but you didn't need a "Daniel episode" or "Sam episode" to come to be really attached to the characters and learn what made them tick.

Part of what drives me nuts is that they were quite capable of writing well, they proved it time and again.
It's like a school kid who's perfectly able to get good marks but doesn't. They are much more frustrating than one who doesn't have any skills in the first place.
These writers can do it, when they don't get lazy and hidebound and start writing clichés, melodrama instead of drama.

FF

[Khentkawes]

OK, well I plan on buying and watching it regardless. (These movies make perfect birthday or Christmas or Mother's Day presents for my mother and then she usually wants me to watch with her.)

I will report back when the time comes!!

I'm holding you to that as well! This is the first time I feel pretty hesitant about buying an SG-1 DVD. Of course it may not matter. It's entirely possible that my mom will pre-order a copy and I can just watch hers.

I'll hold you to that!

When is it due to be released, sometime in 2010 I assume?

No one knows for sure. If they film sometime around October/November (which is the best guess at this point), then maybe we'll luck out and get it by June/July of 2010? If I was a betting lady, that would be my bet.

You are a figment of my demented imagination, obviously.

Cool! I've never been a figment of anyone's imagination before.

I only have one word for you...

Beagles.

*snort* Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean. Gosh, and I'm not even a slasher.

Oh, and on a somewhat serious note... I agree that Janet was a great example of how a female character can/should be written. I don't usually think of her when I consider how the writers handle female characters because, well, honestly, they wrote her like a character, not like a woman. And the thing with Bregman was pretty casual. They didn't make a big deal out of it, just added it for a little bit of dramatic impact so that Bregman could connect with her, and therefore understand the impact of what happens next. If she had lived, I could see it just being mentioned once in passing. Sam could ask "how's Emmet?" or whatever. But, I suppose, it's easier to do a low-profile romance with a supporting character instead of a main character.

[Frostfox]

I'm holding you to that as well! This is the first time I feel pretty hesitant about buying an SG-1 DVD. Of course it may not matter. It's entirely possible that my mom will pre-order a copy and I can just watch hers.

I'm just not that bothered any more, Ark of Truth finished the series and Continuum was okay (I'm not really a fan of AU but looked awfully cute). The only thing which would really pique my interest would be some really solid J/D interaction, but then, we had The Shroud, which was oodles of J/D goodness, so I shouldn't be greedy.
Of course, a good, solid team episode could change my mind.

No one knows for sure. If they film sometime around October/November (which is the best guess at this point), then maybe we'll luck out and get it by June/July of 2010? If I was a betting lady, that would be my bet.

Summer 2010. Okay. A lot can happen in 16 months.

Cool! I've never been a figment of anyone's imagination before.

*snort* Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean. Gosh, and I'm not even a slasher.

Oh, and on a somewhat serious note... I agree that Janet was a great example of how a female character can/should be written. I don't usually think of her when I consider how the writers handle female characters because, well, honestly, they wrote her like a character, not like a woman. And the thing with Bregman was pretty casual. They didn't make a big deal out of it, just added it for a little bit of dramatic impact so that Bregman could connect with her, and therefore understand the impact of what happens next. If she had lived, I could see it just being mentioned once in passing. Sam could ask "how's Emmet?" or whatever. But, I suppose, it's easier to do a low-profile romance with a supporting character instead of a main character.

Janet was understated in her brilliance, they used the connection to add to the loss of her character, it was well done.
So was Sam, when it wasn't all about her lovelife.
And I really don't see why it's any harder for a supporting character rather than a main, just takes a bit more thought. Oh, well, oops.

FF

[Khentkawes]

And I really don't see why it's any harder for a supporting character rather than a main, just takes a bit more thought. Oh, well, oops.

That's why it's harder. Because it requires more thought. Thinking is hard work, you know.

If a writer wants to include romance for a main character, they have to think about how frequently they can/should mention it, how much focus it deserves, and how it will affect the overall dynamic. If you're writing romance for a supporting character, their screentime is already limited, so you don't have to worry as much about the romance taking too much space, or about it adversely affecting any other character dynamics. Hence, I think it's easier to write a minor romance for a supporting character than it is to write a romance for a major character and still keep it low-key. Although that's mostly just my theory, since we don't have many examples of supporting character romance.

[Frostfox]

That's why it's harder. Because it requires more thought. Thinking is hard work, you know.

If a writer wants to include romance for a main character, they have to think about how frequently they can/should mention it, how much focus it deserves, and how it will affect the overall dynamic. If you're writing romance for a supporting character, their screentime is already limited, so you don't have to worry as much about the romance taking too much space, or about it adversely affecting any other character dynamics. Hence, I think it's easier to write a minor romance for a supporting character than it is to write a romance for a major character and still keep it low-key. Although that's mostly just my theory, since we don't have many examples of supporting character romance.

All dependent on the type of show you are writing. And a four person ensemble, with a team emphasis, is different to a show focusing on the two leads, or a show with nine leads.
You cut your cloth according to your fabric, SG1's problem was that they did that, for the most part, then occasionally, for no good reason, they remembered that they wanted to include their star crossed lovers and suddenly, it all turned into Payton Place again.
And, as we knew that the writers could write, could write well, it was all the more frustrating.

FF

[jckfan55]

I think in the early seasons we got a good team dynamic with Sam and Jack. It might be fun to remember some of the good times. What are people's favorite examples of them working well together, joking or generally being non-shippy?

[Killdeer]

I think in the early seasons we got a good team dynamic with Sam and Jack. It might be fun to remember some of the good times. What are people's favorite examples of them working well together, joking or generally being non-shippy?

I don't know if I can think of any examples post-S3. But pre-S4 there were several. Solitudes for one - I really like this episode, and though I suppose some may see it as shippy, I always saw it as team leader and new team member. Um. I always thought his teasing of her at the end of Broca Divide was funny. Emancipation - I know a lot of people hate this episode, but I always enjoyed watching Sam kick butt, and Jack trying to give her relatively worthless pointers beforehand. Oh yeah! When they all woke up in the cell in Within The Serpent's Grasp, and she bit his hand.

Um. I guess those are all S1 examples. Let me get back to you on examples that are not S1.