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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
    I think a lot of my response to all things Jack/Sam (and after all, I can only speak for myself) is to do with how long I've been watching the show. Newer viewers probably have a totally different perspective, now that the show is in the can and canon closed (movies notwithstanding).

    We've lived through the endless "Should they/shouldn't they get together" interviews; the repetitive questions at cons; the countless teases from JM; the fan campaigns; the ship wars etc etc to the point where the mere mention of Sam and Jack in a sentence together puts up defences.

    TPTB intended us to see those embarrassing "Sir, about what I was trying to say earlier" scenes as shippy. No question. They were enticing the shippers into hanging on for their resolution. And they made it so blatant that those of us who wanted to ignore the whole sorry mess simply couldn't.

    The writing was dreadful. There wasn't a single shippy scene that was written for believable grown-ups. Fanfic has always dealt with the relationships between SG-1 far better than the writers ever did.
    It's the old woman/young woman picture.



    Do you see the old woman or the young one?
    Imagine the old woman is the J/S 'relationship' the young woman is J&S friendship.
    Most people see one or the other, but once you have had the old woman pointed out to you, (even though you can still see the young one) you find it hard not to see the old one too.

    Same with the show. We were fine with ignoring the old woman but TPTB insisted on ramming her down our throat, with all the subtlety of a base ball bat across the back of the head and to the detriment of the characters, Sam, in my opinion, in particular.

    And, no matter how often they did that, they couldn't make us like the old woman, or the J/S relationship.

    Originally posted by Callista View Post
    I'm going more with the poor writing on this one because I don't see Sam as inexperienced in romantic relationships and I can't see why she'd be inept anymore (if she ever was). Before SG-1 she was apparently engaged to that Jonas Hanson guy and was smart enough to break it off. During SG-1 she had relationships with Martoof and Narim...not really serious, but enough to gain experience. And in the case of Martoof, she got the bonus of experiencing what appeared to be the healthy love between Lantash and Jolinar. I think she handled both of those pretty well and never seemed to be uncomfortable or at a loss as to what to say. She's just so confident in every other way that I don't understand why she'd be so lacking in confidence in her relationship with Jack and so unsure in her relationship with Pete. If they absolutely had to go there with S/J and keep it going, I can't imagine how a woman like Sam wouldn't be clear with her feelings for Jack after Divide and Conquer and sit down with him and make him be clear with her and then they could have made the necessary career adjustments to allow them to actually be together. I mean, Kerry laid it all out for Jack without any hemming and hawing around and he seemed to take it just fine. Is Kerry really that much stronger and level-headed of a person than Sam? Boy, I wouldn't have thought so in any other context.

    And I could say the same for Jack. He seemed pretty natural and healthy with Sara and Kerry and Laira (the woman from 100 days). Would he really allow the situation with Sam to go on and on for years without being honest with her one way or the other?

    I'd say Daniel and Sha're had a healthy relationship despite it's dubious beginning and Teal'c's various relationships seemed to be pretty open and fulfilling for both partners and when he did have trouble with Drey'ac they seemed to be able to talk about it openly with each other. Why would Jack and Sam be written so differently if not to string along the audience for years and years and years?
    Yeah, I know some fans have a theory that Sam has trouble with her romantic life, but I'm not sure how much of that is fanon, rather than canon. It's not a bad theory and I can see where it comes from; there's so much Sam is good at, perhaps her personal life is an area she's weak in?

    The writers certainly damaged her character trying to give her a love life in later seasons, the writers seemed to have no clue on how to write a woman of her age. Her dismissal of Pete was particularly badly written and you all know how I feel about the twin-set and pearls scene at Jack and Kerry's BBQ. There were times when they so abused the character I didn't like her much any more, which is quite a feat as Sam's my second favourite, after Daniel. If I felt like that, what must the casual viewer have thought of it all?

    FF
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      Originally posted by Callista View Post
      I'm going more with the poor writing on this one because I don't see Sam as inexperienced in romantic relationships and I can't see why she'd be inept anymore (if she ever was). Before SG-1 she was apparently engaged to that Jonas Hanson guy and was smart enough to break it off. During SG-1 she had relationships with Martoof and Narim...not really serious, but enough to gain experience. And in the case of Martoof, she got the bonus of experiencing what appeared to be the healthy love between Lantash and Jolinar. I think she handled both of those pretty well and never seemed to be uncomfortable or at a loss as to what to say. She's just so confident in every other way that I don't understand why she'd be so lacking in confidence in her relationship with Jack and so unsure in her relationship with Pete. If they absolutely had to go there with S/J and keep it going, I can't imagine how a woman like Sam wouldn't be clear with her feelings for Jack after Divide and Conquer and sit down with him and make him be clear with her and then they could have made the necessary career adjustments to allow them to actually be together. I mean, Kerry laid it all out for Jack without any hemming and hawing around and he seemed to take it just fine. Is Kerry really that much stronger and level-headed of a person than Sam? Boy, I wouldn't have thought so in any other context.
      Well, to me Sam's relationships with Narim and Martouf were only working relationships, not romantic relationships. They never saw each other outside of some mission or crisis, and those times were quite sporadic, several months apart. The only long-term romantic relationship she had in the show prior to Pete was Hanson, and that could not have been a very positive one considering how it ended.

      With Narim she seemed rather flustered at his regard in Enigma, and still not entirely comfortable with it in Pretense and Between Two Fires. With Martouf, I would think the Jolinar influence would be a hindrance rather than a bonus, because it would make it difficult for her to sort out her own feelings for the man, and concerned that she's being influenced by Jolinar's feelings rather than her own.

      In D&C, to me the 'keep this in the room' bit was Sam choosing her career and the team over pursuing any possible relationship with Jack, which would have necessitated changes in career and team. Despite the feelings stated, it wasn't something she wanted to explore at that time and Jack seemed to accept that.

      So to me, Pete was her first attempt at a long-term committed romantic relationship since Hanson, so I can see her being a bit unsure about it, especially once he finds out about her job. In Affinity she seemed surprised he hadn't taken off yet knowing she deals with aliens for a living.

      And I could say the same for Jack. He seemed pretty natural and healthy with Sara and Kerry and Laira (the woman from 100 days). Would he really allow the situation with Sam to go on and on for years without being honest with her one way or the other?
      I think Jack is pretty good in relationships as well, which is why I see the unsure part of it coming mostly from Sam. I personally saw the D&C scene as a mutual agreement to kinda ignore what ever feelings arose on the ship and continue the status quo, essentially. And Jack's ability to be completely honest with Sam is likely complicated by their ranks, which is a hurdle he didn't have with Sara, Laira, or Kerry. Same with Sam being completely honest with Jack.

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        ^ I don't think they had the first clue of how to write a woman's perspective, much less Sam's in the romantic area. I wish they had not gone there at all--whether with Pete (as he turned out) or Jack.

        They should have stuck with AT's advice to just write Sam as a character and she'd take care of the woman part.

        As for the idea that the character of Sam has trouble in her romantic life: the Jonas hansen relationship obviously turned out bad--but she broke it off with him. She was shown to get a bit flustered by flattery--Narim, the kid in Emancipation ("guess the kid doesn't get out much" and we don't get the sense she dates much--but neither do we see jack or Daniel dating. Who has time with all the missions they go on, not to mention the secrecy?

        With a different set of writers (and maybe a different show actually) it would have been interesting to see how that worked. Skydiver has commented elsewhere about how difficult it would be to explain to a significant other the broken dates, the year round tan if you're supposed to be working indoors, and of course the various injuries...

        This is an area where a good fanfic writer has an advantage over the show...

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          Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
          IIRC, in Ripple Effect PDL was going to try to sell a shippy moment between alternate Sam and Cam, but AT put her foot down. And I don't think the writers actually intended it either. Thank goodness.
          Actually director Peter De Luise misinterpreted the script (written by the SJ ship friendly Joe Mallozzi) and tried to make a shippy moment, but Joe nixed it!

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            Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
            ^ I don't think they had the first clue of how to write a woman's perspective, much less Sam's in the romantic area. I wish they had not gone there at all--whether with Pete (as he turned out) or Jack.

            They should have stuck with AT's advice to just write Sam as a character and she'd take care of the woman part.

            As for the idea that the character of Sam has trouble in her romantic life: the Jonas hansen relationship obviously turned out bad--but she broke it off with him. She was shown to get a bit flustered by flattery--Narim, the kid in Emancipation ("guess the kid doesn't get out much" and we don't get the sense she dates much--but neither do we see jack or Daniel dating. Who has time with all the missions they go on, not to mention the secrecy?

            With a different set of writers (and maybe a different show actually) it would have been interesting to see how that worked. Skydiver has commented elsewhere about how difficult it would be to explain to a significant other the broken dates, the year round tan if you're supposed to be working indoors, and of course the various injuries...

            This is an area where a good fanfic writer has an advantage over the show...
            Yes to the bolded bit.
            Spoilers for Dexter
            Spoiler:
            Dexter's sister has just started an affair with her superior, a much older man. This is clearly going to lead to some very interesting story themes on the subordinate/boss conflict, the age gap between them and I'm sure these factors will be explored in a mature and interesting and cleverly humourous manner.
            Where in SG1 all we got was character assassination and melodrama.


            FF
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              [QUOTE=EvenstarSRV;9963143]Well, to me Sam's relationships with Narim and Martouf were only working relationships, not romantic relationships. They never saw each other outside of some mission or crisis, and those times were quite sporadic, several months apart. [QUOTE]

              Thank you. I think there was potential there for romance,(and there was 1 kiss with Narim) but more interest on Narim's and martouf's side than hers. And of course the whole Martouf thing was complicated by Jolinar's memories.
              And Joe Faxon was only potential too.

              Sam and Jack's relationship too was all based on work. I think they respected and admired each other. Sam saw Jack as brave and a good leader and she mostly got his sense of humor. Jack was impressed with Sam's brain & her competence in the field. She was an excellent team member--and she got his jokes--which he had to like.

              But really, what would they talk about outside of work? And there's the whole chain of command thing. They're both professionals. I find the whole S/J thing disrespectful of that. I had really hoped the "leave it in the room" thing in D&C would put it to rest. silly me.

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                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                Sam and Jack's relationship too was all based on work. I think they respected and admired each other. Sam saw Jack as brave and a good leader and she mostly got his sense of humor. Jack was impressed with Sam's brain & her competence in the field. She was an excellent team member--and she got his jokes--which he had to like.

                But really, what would they talk about outside of work? And there's the whole chain of command thing. They're both professionals. I find the whole S/J thing disrespectful of that. I had really hoped the "leave it in the room" thing in D&C would put it to rest. silly me.
                Outside of work, I'd imagine that initially it may just be the common things people usually talk about with colleagues and friends, anecdotes from previous jobs, opinions on politics, in Sam and Jack's case perhaps some astronomy, and I think they both owned motorcycles so maybe some talk about preferred models and such.

                I personally feel that while Sam and Jack's relationship was initially very much based on work, over the years working together that relationship had the potential and did deepen and expand to friendship as well. Because for me, if the chain of command aspect should prevent Sam and Jack from being friends, then technically it should also apply to Daniel and Teal'c, because both were under Jack's command.

                But I feel the same way about Jack's friendships with Daniel and Teal'c, working relationships that began in the context of a job and the mission, but over time broadened into friendships. I personally can't see SG-1 having drinks and talking about the Simpsons in Lost City without believing that they were all friends in addition to being colleagues.

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                  Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                  ...And just to prove that I'm not negative all the time, I have to agree with those upthread who mentioned Solitudes. It's terrifically teamy and gave me a Jack and Sam that I really enjoyed. Would that we'd had a lot more of that ...
                  Originally posted by fyere View Post
                  I'd like to discuss the friendship aspect, too. Back in the earlier seasons, they were adorable friends/teammates. I'm thinking in...Broca Divide, I believe it was, with the whole Sam-goes-Neanderthal-and-attacks-Jack-in-tiny-tank-top fiasco - Jack asks near the end of the ep if her wound is healing up, and she says yes, it won't even leave a scar, and he teases her - good, otherwise you'd never be able to wear that sweet little tank top number again. I didn't find that shippy at all. It felt like - well, like a good-natured CO ribbing his 2IC about something embarrassing she did, or an older brother being gently mocking. It was cute. Solitudes was cute, too, with the 'it's my sidearm, I swear' stuff.

                  These may have been more suggestive remarks than anything later-seasons Jack might have said, more blatantly sexual, but you can watch without thinking anything of them, because it's just joking between comrades and friends. I miss that Sam-and-Jack relationship, when they both worked well together and were certain of their places, without all the awkward undercurrents.
                  Word on both these. Solitudes is in my top five SG1 episodes, mostly because it's all team, working, even while apart, to find a solution. And it was lovely of Sam to pretend to be Sara for a (nearly) dying man.
                  There are few good mentoring shows between men and women on TV. The assumption is always that it must end in romance and it's just not realistic. I would have been a very busy girl if I had ended up in a romantic relationship with all the people who I've worked closely with over the years.
                  And people feel sexual attraction towards each other all the time, they just deal with it like mature adults and 'leave it in the room'.
                  I think this is in part why we don't see Jack and Sam as close friends; because they know there is a latent attraction between each other, they wouldn't socialise without Daniel and Teal'c too. If you feel something like that, you don't put yourself in situations where it stress' the working relationship you have.
                  Part of my problem was that, as written on the show, TPTB wanted to convince us of some 'written in the stars' 'it was meant to be' aspect to S/J and it's just baloney, real relationships take work, chemistry, friendship, written in the stars just won't cut it. Amanda Tapping said that if S/J really had to happen, they should just have had the sex and got it out of their system. I didn't want that aspect of the show at all, but given that the writers kept pushing it, she might have been right. At least that would have been healthier and more honest for the characters than the character destroying mess we ended up with.

                  FF
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                    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                    Part of my problem was that, as written on the show, TPTB wanted to convince us of some 'written in the stars' 'it was meant to be' aspect to S/J and it's just baloney, real relationships take work, chemistry, friendship, written in the stars just won't cut it. Amanda Tapping said that if S/J really had to happen, they should just have had the sex and got it out of their system. I didn't want that aspect of the show at all, but given that the writers kept pushing it, she might have been right. At least that would have been healthier and more honest for the characters than the character destroying mess we ended up with.

                    FF
                    Oh, Wordy Mcword.

                    It was the whole "star-crossed lovers" rubbish that had me laughing all the way to the old anti-thread.

                    *adopts movie voice-over trailer voice* Two Air Force officers, kept apart by the demands of duty, deny their one true love for the greater good mankind. Behold, the greatest love story never told.

                    Baloney. If they were that much in love, Sam could have stepped out of SG-1 and taken an R&D role, where her expertise would have been equally valued. And let's face it, neither her nor Daniel belonged on a frontline team anyway. Far too valuable. Just negate the chain of command issue and they could have lived happily ever after .... with 13 kids and two beagles. Oh wait .... wrong pairing.

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                      Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                      Oh, Wordy Mcword.

                      It was the whole "star-crossed lovers" rubbish that had me laughing all the way to the old anti-thread.

                      *adopts movie voice-over trailer voice* Two Air Force officers, kept apart by the demands of duty, deny their one true love for the greater good mankind. Behold, the greatest love story never told.

                      Baloney. If they were that much in love, Sam could have stepped out of SG-1 and taken an R&D role, where her expertise would have been equally valued. And let's face it, neither her nor Daniel belonged on a frontline team anyway. Far too valuable. Just negate the chain of command issue and they could have lived happily ever after .... with 13 kids and two beagles. Oh wait .... wrong pairing.
                      yeah, there was far too much of that in the later seasons.
                      My ships: sigpic
                      (Sam/Jack, Sam/Rodney, Sam/Martouf/Lantash, Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Sam/Janet)

                      Sam/Jack, Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Sam/Janet, and Sam/Rodney smilies made by the talented zuz - THANKS. Smilies merged into one sig by the awesome Nolamom - THANKS!

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                        Originally posted by SamShipper View Post
                        yeah, there was far too much of that in the later seasons.
                        Wow! Love all your little Sam smilies! You really multi-ship her, talk about versatile.
                        When they kept it subtle, below the surface so you could see the relationship if you liked it or ignore it if you didn't, then it was fine. But when it became overt it started to become silly and damaged the characters and annoyed the fans. TPTB made it into an issue.

                        FF :NOX:
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                          I have a question because I know absolutely nothing about this kind of thing, but now that Jack is in Washington and Sam isn't, would the Air Force be OK with them having a relationship even though he outranks her? Would it have been all right for them to date if she were on a different team? Would Jack have been allowed to date Janet? Would Sam have been allowed to date Daniel before she was the team leader in season 8? Would Cam and Sam be allowed to date each other since they're the same rank? (Not that I'm advocating any of those relationships IN ANY WAY!!!!! I'm just unclear on what is and isn't acceptable in the Air Force with regards to dating.)

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                            Originally posted by Callista View Post
                            I have a question because I know absolutely nothing about this kind of thing, but now that Jack is in Washington and Sam isn't, would the Air Force be OK with them having a relationship even though he outranks her? Would it have been all right for them to date if she were on a different team? Would Jack have been allowed to date Janet? Would Sam have been allowed to date Daniel before she was the team leader in season 8? Would Cam and Sam be allowed to date each other since they're the same rank? (Not that I'm advocating any of those relationships IN ANY WAY!!!!! I'm just unclear on what is and isn't acceptable in the Air Force with regards to dating.)
                            If they're on the same team they're not allowed to date even if they're both civilians (Daniel/Vala or Teal'c /Vala). Jack couldn't have dated Janet because she's the base CMO (technically she can outrank even Hammond) Jack and Sam can date if they're not in the chain of command. Of course the regs simply don't matter, it's what the writers want to do: they could have had Jack shag Sam right on the briefing room table in COTG

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                              Originally posted by SamShipper View Post
                              yeah, there was far too much of that in the later seasons.
                              Although honestly, that was part of why I love Seasons 9/10, because Sam was totally unshipped, and normal and happy in spite of it.

                              ~Friendshipping (among others) the two most awesome women of Stargate.
                              ~My Stargate fanfic can be found on my Livejournal

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                                'written in the stars' ?? Apparently something else I completely missed from the show, thank goodness.

                                Though I really can't see the two characters engaging in an one-night stand, no matter what the feelings and attraction between them.

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