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    Was that line not in the briefing room scene? No, you're right, it wasn't.

    Now, where did I leave my brain?

    :: search vaguely then forget what I'm doing ::

    Madeleine

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      Originally posted by LoneStar1836
      Nah, Sam’s not that crazy about Jack. Sgt. Siler might be though. Good thing he didn’t see Jack and Kerry together. He might have written Jack out of his will. The two timer.
      LOL

      That Jack... tsk, tsk... Can't he ever make up his mind... you'd think he'd have a nice collection of exs and standbys by now... There's no limit to some people's greed...
      And they say it is a woman's perogative to change her mind... obviously they didn't bring Jack into the equation.
      sigpic
      "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

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        My feeling from early on was that Sam deserved better. Jack's a great guy, but I don't think he'd be such a great mate at this point in his life. Been there, done that. Sam's never been married. I would have been happy if she:

        (1) Decided she had no interest in marriage whatsoever and enjoyed other things in her life.

        (2) Decided she wanted a real relationship, got over her crush on Jack, actually became friends with Jack, and started looking for someone else to share her life with.

        I thought for a minute there #2 was what they were doing. But the way they played it, she's cheating on Pete from Lost City until Threads, because she's constantly going behind his back and trying to feel out whether Jack might be open to a relationship.

        That's not how I see Sam, and if I doubt that's what the writers intended, but it came off very, very trashy. Very soap opera, very much a morals-free zone.
        The Hathor Legacy: What TV and Film are Really Saying about Women.

        My Stargate Fanfiction

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          Originally posted by Beta Candy
          But the way they played it, she's cheating on Pete from Lost City until Threads, because she's constantly going behind his back and trying to feel out whether Jack might be open to a relationship.

          That's not how I see Sam, and if I doubt that's what the writers intended, but it came off very, very trashy. Very soap opera, very much a morals-free zone.
          I don't think for one second the writers intended for it to come off as trashy, but I have to agree that it did. It looked as though
          Spoiler:
          Sam reeled out the engagement bait as long as she could until it began to look as though she might actually end up married, pulled an eleventh hour manoeuvre - trying and failing to force Jack's hand by showing up at his house - and then finally let Pete off the hook before she ended up standing at the altar with Jack only because he, in Jacob's absence, was giving away the bride.


          It's a classic soap opera plot. Only in soaps it's almost invariably the scheming vixen character who sets such a plan in motion
          Spoiler:
          except there she usually ends up married to the "dupe," only to fall in love with him right around the time her intended target begins to show some interest in her.
          Not exactly the sort of cultural reference point I wanted to find myself applying to Sam, even academically.

          I don't care for Pete.
          Spoiler:
          I didn't find him odious, he had his charms, but he added nothing to the 'Stargate' story and I'm just as happy to see the back of him. I'm just sorry that Sam had to take such a hit in order for it to happen.
          I'm not sure it was worth it.

          Actually, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

          TC
          Last edited by Tucker Case; 17 April 2005, 05:52 PM.

          Comment


            Tucker, I won't quote you since you spoiler-highlighted the best parts, but you nailed it. Sam got the scheming vixen role, which is worse even than the Anise role that fans generally rejected. I doubt any SG fan, shipper or not, Sam fan or not, wanted to see Sam portrayed that way. The only way I can imagine anyone liking what happened is if the portrayal didn't strike them the same way it did most of us.

            And I'm sure for some it didn't. The writers painted it as such a romantic and appropriate way to behave that I'm sure a lot of people saw it as morally acceptable. It doesn't matter that she's stringing Pete along, because she and Jack have True Love, and True Love supercedes morals and duty!

            Come again? True love IS moral.

            I think some people - including RCC, I guess - believe the rules keeping Sam and Jack apart are silly, like the feud between the families of Romeo and Juliet. I completely disagree - the no-frat rules exist to promote fairness and avoid favoritism or abuse of power. And the no-frat rules existed long before women were in the service - they applies to friendships between males.

            I bet the people who think the S/J thing is acceptable would sing a very different tune if they thought Jack's friendship with Daniel was compromising his judgment as a C.O. There's no difference.

            By painting Sam as a vixen, it's hard not to conclude that her judgment has been seriously compromised. My understanding is that an officer in the Air Force can actually be disciplined for committing adultery - they don't regard it as a personal issue, like civilians do. Knowing this, Sam still chooses to run around behind her boyfriend/fiance's back, trying to feel out Jack on the possiblity of a future relationship.

            It's just not how I see her, and definitely not how I want to see a female officer portrayed. It's reinforcing half the arguments for why women shouldn't be allowed to serve.
            The Hathor Legacy: What TV and Film are Really Saying about Women.

            My Stargate Fanfiction

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              Originally posted by Beta Candy
              Sam got the scheming vixen role, which is worse even than the Anise role that fans generally rejected. I doubt any SG fan, shipper or not, Sam fan or not, wanted to see Sam portrayed that way.
              I've loved quite a few scheming vixens. They're among my favourite soap characters, so long as the writers are honest about it: Call a vixen a vixen, explaining but never excusing her scheming, and never confusing the vixen for the ingenue just because she's popular.

              The writers painted it as such a romantic and appropriate way to behave that I'm sure a lot of people saw it as morally acceptable.
              These writers aren't the only one to get it wrong. Soap writers have messed it up royally as well, when it stands to reason that they would know "vixen-ish" behaviour when they see it (because they've intentionally written it for vixen characters before). I know of one soap message board that features a daily thread devoted to the condemnation of the latest deplorable act committed by the show's supposed ingenue - a daily thread that tallies up 100 posts on average. All because the writers are operating on the mistaken impression, not that true love supercedes morals so much, but that because the character has been deemed "pure and true" by the writers, then anything she does is, by defnintion, pure and true by virtue of her doing it.

              The resident vixen, having done the same things, would be called on her actions by other characters - and called a lot of things that can't be repeated on a family-friendly forum - but the ingenue is still held up as a paragon of virtue.

              A bit like Sam. I'd have fewer problems with Sam's behaviour, these past two seasons, I think, if just one character would pull her aside and say, "Sammy, honey, what has gotten into you? Do you even realise what you're doing? You're better than this, start acting like it."

              I might well ask the writers if they realise what they're doing. Sam's better than this, they should start writing like it.

              I think some people - including RCC, I guess - believe the rules keeping Sam and Jack apart are silly, like the feud between the families of Romeo and Juliet. I completely disagree - the no-frat rules exist to promote fairness and avoid favoritism or abuse of power.
              Well, that's the thing, too.

              If they were that silly, a couple of fully-grown adults should have had no trouble finding a solution to the problem.

              It's difficult to think of Sam and Jack's sense of honour or duty as what's keeping them apart - and thus perhaps sympathise with their plight - when the rules they're "honouring" are being alternately demonised or trivialised.

              By painting Sam as a vixen, it's hard not to conclude that her judgment has been seriously compromised.
              Except I still don't see Sam as the vixen. I'm too aware of the mistakes in the writing to buy the story it ends up telling at all. Sam isn't a vixen, she isn't a schemer, she doesn't use people as bait. I may have "seen" these things on my screen, but I don't "believe" them. I don't buy that Sam's a vixen any more than I buy that her actions, with Pete or Jack last season, were honourable.

              Tha't probably the biggest problem right there. What happens to a character when you don't "believe" anything about her anymore? If Tinkerbell is anything to go by, it isn't good.

              TC

              Comment


                Originally posted by Tucker Case
                A bit like Sam. I'd have fewer problems with Sam's behaviour, these past two seasons, I think, if just one character would pull her aside and say, "Sammy, honey, what has gotten into you? Do you even realise what you're doing? You're better than this, start acting like it."
                You sound just like Janet there. Maybe she could tell Sam - oh, right, that particular avenue of sanity has been closed off.

                Since Sam is now the sole representative of females on SG, I'd prefer to have her be a flawed but basically good-hearted and sound-minded person - like the guys of SG-1. But I do agree that if anyone on the show ever treated her like her behavior merits, I'd at least feel like the writers and I are on the same planet.

                In Zero Hour, I was mightily confused. On the one hand, Reynolds clearly thinks Sam subverted Jack's orders in telling SG-3 to stay at the gate (Jack even says something like, "Didn't I tell you to stay with them?" This feels like RCC is clearly telling us Sam screwed up. Okay. But then at the end, Jack gives her glowing marks on her review! So what was RCC telling us? That Jack's so besotted he can't evaluate Sam fairly? Isn't that the very essence of what the regs are meant to prevent?

                At least Peter DeLuise and the others had Sam showing remorse and feeling responsible for whatever the RepliCarter did after it got away from her. I loved Sam every time she expressed that remorse - but every time, Jack had to come along and tell her, "No, my National Treasure, you did everything perfectly! Even if a member of your team died, that's okay - he's like Kenny from South Park."

                Do the writers comprehend what they're saying about *Jack*, let alone Sam?

                Except I still don't see Sam as the vixen. I'm too aware of the mistakes in the writing to buy the story it ends up telling at all. Sam isn't a vixen, she isn't a schemer, she doesn't use people as bait. I may have "seen" these things on my screen, but I don't "believe" them. I don't buy that Sam's a vixen any more than I buy that her actions, with Pete or Jack last season, were honourable.

                Tha't probably the biggest problem right there. What happens to a character when you don't "believe" anything about her anymore? If Tinkerbell is anything to go by, it isn't good.
                That's just it. The contradictions are irreconcilable.

                But the message that "women in the service just cause trouble" is coming across loud and clear. I personally don't buy it... but how many people do?
                The Hathor Legacy: What TV and Film are Really Saying about Women.

                My Stargate Fanfiction

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                  Thanks to the newbies on this thread that have been trying to give me greens...(assuming they were meant to be greens ) I appreciate the thought...

                  I guess I've been bitten by the Firefly bug of late which has made me think again as to why I'm extremely uncomfortable with the whole Sam/Jack thingamyjigship. I'm beginning to realise that it isn't ship in general that repulses but the way this particular one has been constructed. The whole S/J scenario has been ill-conceived, half-hearted and extremely inconsistent. It comes and goes... it lies dormant for one season and then gets revisited in another. The characters seem to exist in different ship universes... at times there is no indication of anything beyond garden variety comaraderie... at other times, they fall prey to awkwardness and angst in a rather forced manner. I've come to realise that what I like about the way ship works in Firefly is that it is consistent... it is not jarring... it adds to the dialogue and humour and is carefully worked into the main narrative. All the signs are there all the time... Good ship adds to the characterization and does not turn decent characters into caricatures or worse still dithering fools.

                  TC: Yeah, I'm also a little weary/wary of the line that propriety can be thrown out the window because of luuurve... it is getting a bit banal... and frankly speaking, a cop out. It is a device that allows characters to be moved around like chess pieces with no thought to consistent characterization. It's a convenient add on... time filler when what is really needed is more solid storytelling.
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                  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

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                    (Affinity, Threads)
                    Spoiler:
                    Sam's word; what's that? What's that good for, anymore? Apparently "yes" means "maybe." She strung Pete along for, what, 2 weeks in Affinity, only to waffle about it and finally break in Threads? At least she felt GUILTY about breaking her word to Fifth, and he was a Replicator, for crying out loud. Pete didn't get so much as a regret from her, once she was free to cuddle with Jack.
                    And what was she doing, trying to talk to him after she broke it off? Did she think he wouldn't leave angry? Was she (heaven forbid) thinking they could "still be friends?" Did she think she wouldn't have to face the consequences of her choice?
                    And of course there's the teen-movie concept that it's ok to break any rule and/or trample on people's hearts to get what you want, because you're in loooooooooooove. I hate the idea that love justifies anything. That may work for fairy tales, but not for Stargate, and NOT for Sam. Or Jacob, for that matter. I just can't believe he encouraged her, and was probably the deciding factor in her betrayal. That's almost as morally repugnant as Jack interfering would've been, IMO. It saddens me to think that even Jacob has been slaughtered on this 'shippy alter.


                    I totally agree with everyone who has said that the relevant regs. exist for good reasons; there are so many compromising situations that could easily occur because of chain-of-command-'ship stuff. But apparently, in the old hero cliche, our particular pair are above rules.
                    Last edited by yasureubetcha; 18 April 2005, 04:43 AM.


                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Beta Candy
                      In Zero Hour, I was mightily confused. On the one hand, Reynolds clearly thinks Sam subverted Jack's orders in telling SG-3 to stay at the gate (Jack even says something like, "Didn't I tell you to stay with them?" This feels like RCC is clearly telling us Sam screwed up. Okay. But then at the end, Jack gives her glowing marks on her review! So what was RCC telling us? That Jack's so besotted he can't evaluate Sam fairly? Isn't that the very essence of what the regs are meant to prevent?
                      Oh. Wait. I have a theory. Not that I've seen the episode or anything (not till the DVD's come out, I'm sorry to say), but what you just posted above sounds almost like a moral dilemma. Which is something Stargate used to excel at, and is in fact the main reason I watch the show, but is unfortunately not something we've seen much of on the show lately...

                      Unless this is building to one? Not quite what I had in mind when I asked for a return of the moral dilemmas (too personal and not... big enough)... but at least this would make sense...

                      Many thanks to blingaway for the sig pic.

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                        Originally posted by Beta Candy
                        At least Peter DeLuise and the others had Sam showing remorse and feeling responsible for whatever the RepliCarter did after it got away from her. I loved Sam every time she expressed that remorse - but every time, Jack had to come along and tell her, "No, my National Treasure, you did everything perfectly! Even if a member of your team died, that's okay - he's like Kenny from South Park."

                        Do the writers comprehend what they're saying about *Jack*, let alone Sam?
                        I came away from both of those scenes not feeling that Sam had taken responsibility for her actions, but feeling as though I had been instructed not to hold her responsible. The writers certainly don’t.

                        The chief rationale or defence put forth for Sam’s more questionable actions of late is that they’re meant to show us that she’s only human, flawed like the rest of us, because people sure do complain a lot about her being “perfect.”

                        Trouble is, according to the show, “even her mistakes are perfect.” Or worse, it's, “Mistake? What mistake?”
                        Spoiler:
                        She countermands orders, getting her team trapped for days and forcing the SGC to answer to Ba’al in their absence and, according to the show, “Pshaw!” She hands the keys to the kingdom to the Replicators, unleashing a plague of them on the galaxy, Daniel pays for her mistake with his life, Jacob and Selmak sacrifice their lives helping to put it right and, according to the show, Sam must not be held accountable (according to the show, it’s “thanks to Daniel” that RepliCarter knows out about the weapon on Dakara, when he had his mind probed against his will, but it’s through no fault of Carter’s that RepliCarter knew about Daniel in the first place, when she willingly submitted to having her mind probed - but isn’t she a peach for trying to shoulder the blame, anyway, for something that isn’t her fault?) She strings Pete along, breaks his heart, has the effrontery to be insulted when he isn’t upset enough for her liking and, according to the show, you still can't get much better than Sam.
                        There are consequences for everyone but Sam when she slips and shows her “human” side, she’s touched by the fallout indirectly at best.

                        Seriously, no kidding, she was better off perfect. At least then the writers weren’t showing me how flawed she was while telling me she’s perfect but still expecting me to sympathise and identify with the human imperfections that she never suffers for and, according to them, don’t exist. Um...huh?

                        It might be the lesser of two aggravations, but I’ll take infallible over “above reproach” any day. If she’s going to screw up like the rest of us, then let her suffer for it like the rest of us (because, here’s a tip guys, it’s the suffering we sympathise with).

                        I don’t like what the writers are inadvertently saying about Jack, either, but, more than that, I don’t like how this convenient chain-of-command thing is used to absolve Carter of responsibility for her actions. It’s like Daniel and his ‘Get Out Of Death Free Card.’ Carter has this ‘Get Out Of Suffering The Consequences Free Card,’ courtesy of her commanding officer (who must take ultimate responsibility for her screw-ups and, golly, it’s not her fault, or the writers’, that that’s how it is).

                        Jack is a mouthpiece for the writers in those scenes, and that interferes with the story, for me, the same way the “miscasting” of Carter as the vixen gets in the way of other aspects of the story. I don’t buy that Jack’s so besotted he can’t evaluate Sam fairly any more than I buy that she’s a scheming vixen. I end more aware of the storytellers than the story. It means I don't really hold either character accountable, but that's only because I don't hold much stock in them at all.

                        Knock it off with the irreconcilable contradictions, write them believably again and I'll come back to believing in them. Heaven knows I want to.

                        TC

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Beta Candy
                          In Zero Hour, I was mightily confused. On the one hand, Reynolds clearly thinks Sam subverted Jack's orders in telling SG-3 to stay at the gate (Jack even says something like, "Didn't I tell you to stay with them?" This feels like RCC is clearly telling us Sam screwed up. Okay. But then at the end, Jack gives her glowing marks on her review! So what was RCC telling us? That Jack's so besotted he can't evaluate Sam fairly? Isn't that the very essence of what the regs are meant to prevent?
                          But, don't forget that not only Jack gives her a glowing review, but didn't he ask Teal'c and Daniel how she did, and they both praised her? I seem to remember him telling her that (although I could be wrong, I didn't really like Zero Hour and haven't rewatched it). Now, they were there and still praised her to the skies. Maybe that was to justify his review. "See, it wasn't Jack playing favorites. Daniel and Teal'c felt the same way and he was going by their report."

                          As far as Sam taking responsibility,I agree it kind of subverts the whole thing to have Jack tell her (and us) that it really wasn't her fault.
                          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

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                            Originally posted by Beta Candy
                            Tucker, I won't quote you since you spoiler-highlighted the best parts, but you nailed it. Sam got the scheming vixen role, which is worse even than the Anise role that fans generally rejected. I doubt any SG fan, shipper or not, Sam fan or not, wanted to see Sam portrayed that way. The only way I can imagine anyone liking what happened is if the portrayal didn't strike them the same way it did most of us.

                            And I'm sure for some it didn't. The writers painted it as such a romantic and appropriate way to behave that I'm sure a lot of people saw it as morally acceptable. It doesn't matter that she's stringing Pete along, because she and Jack have True Love, and True Love supercedes morals and duty!

                            Come again? True love IS moral.
                            And in the real world, people turn their back on 'True Love' and do the Right Thing for career, for honour, for culture, for 'The Regs' for any number of reasons.
                            True love dosn't conquer all and is a strangely modern phenomenon - most of our ancestors married who they were told to and learned to love the one they were with, for all their lives. Still happens in many parts of the world.

                            It's only in Western culture (possibly due to the influence of such media as the soaps and romance novels?) that True Love is allowed to be amoral because it trancends all such boundaries.

                            No, it shouldn't. That's a simplistic and juvenile view of the world and the hard decisions people have to make on a day to day basis.


                            By painting Sam as a vixen, it's hard not to conclude that her judgment has been seriously compromised. My understanding is that an officer in the Air Force can actually be disciplined for committing adultery - they don't regard it as a personal issue, like civilians do. Knowing this, Sam still chooses to run around behind her boyfriend/fiance's back, trying to feel out Jack on the possiblity of a future relationship.

                            It's just not how I see her, and definitely not how I want to see a female officer portrayed. It's reinforcing half the arguments for why women shouldn't be allowed to serve.
                            And it's not fair on the character, I agree with TC, I don't believe this Sam, this isn't the Sam we saw in earlier seasons, this isn't the Sam with integrity and honour.

                            Frostfox
                            Last edited by Frostfox; 18 April 2005, 11:21 AM.
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                              There are tons of good points being made in every single post - the reason I'm not responding to all of them is simply that I have nothing to add.

                              Originally posted by Dani347
                              But, don't forget that not only Jack gives her a glowing review, but didn't he ask Teal'c and Daniel how she did, and they both praised her? I seem to remember him telling her that (although I could be wrong, I didn't really like Zero Hour and haven't rewatched it). Now, they were there and still praised her to the skies. Maybe that was to justify his review. "See, it wasn't Jack playing favorites. Daniel and Teal'c felt the same way and he was going by their report."
                              You're remembering correctly. I can kind of see Teal'c and Daniel covering for her, and here's why: I assume they covered for Jack a bit in eps like Scorched Earth, because otherwise I can't figure out how he avoided serious disciplinary action for subverting Hammond's orders to "find another way" and threatening the lives of an entire race and Daniel in the process. So I guess SG-1 has a history of covering for each other here and there, right or wrong, and Zero Hour was a very similar situation, and with far less troubling consequences.

                              But I bet Hammond didn't give Jack a glowing review after Scorched Earth, even if Jack more or less "got away with it". It was the glowing review that just really bugged me to death. "You made a mistake, Carter, but I trust you not to make it again" would have been a lot more palatable. But the "pshaw" and "high marks for bravery" just made me think, "If I was an airman at the SGC and I heard about that, I'd be thinking Yep, they're doing it." And that is SO not how I want to see Sam and Jack - as incompetent hormone-driven fools who are no longer capable of doing their jobs.

                              Originally posted by Frostfox
                              It's only in Western culture (possibly due to the influence of such media as the soaps and romance novels?) that True Love is allowed to be amoral because it trancends all such boundaries.
                              You know, when Star Wars: Attack of the Clones came out in 2002, I thought for a minute there that the Anakin/Padme romance didn't simply flop, but that Lucas actually meant it to be uncomfortable. Why? Because Anakin's "I'm above the rules" behavior is going to contribute to him becoming Darth Vader.

                              Unfortunately, no matter what evil he does in the next film, or did in the original trilogy, I bet some people will rearrange it in their minds so that it was his True Love For Padme that saved him in the end, so yay love, boo rules.

                              The funny thing is, I'm a real free spirit. I would never consider following a rule just because somebody made it a rule. But when the spirit of a rule makes sense and you ignore it for personal convenience, that's not something I can respect.
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                                Originally posted by Beta Candy
                                You made a mistake, Carter, but I trust you not to make it again" would have been a lot more palatable. But the "pshaw" and "high marks for bravery" just made me think, "If I was an airman at the SGC and I heard about that, I'd be thinking Yep, they're doing it."

                                True. It's like Jack can't ever acknowledge that Sam's messed up. It's one thing to not say anything (although I don't buy the "well, she feels bad enough so why mention it" excuse) but to tell her that she did nothing wrong just smacks of favoritism and I'm sure the rumors would abound.

                                The funny thing is, I'm a real free spirit. I would never consider following a rule just because somebody made it a rule. But when the spirit of a rule makes sense and you ignore it for personal convenience, that's not something I can respect.
                                It's also not something I can respect when at least before Jack became General, it was so easy to go around. Transfer Sam so she wasn't under Jack's direct command. I know that wouldn't have worked for the show's purpose, but don't try to sell it as two star crossed lovers who we're supposed to admire. Since they were going to have Sam stay on SG1, then write her as honoring the rules of the job she chose to keep. In spirit as well as letter.
                                Last edited by Dani347; 18 April 2005, 04:13 PM.
                                I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                                Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

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                                Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                                Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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